249 réponses à ce sujet

[N7 Banshee Bait]

Oakshire wrote...

I'm with the OP on this one...

It doesn't have to be the next generation or the next 10 - but when Synthetics are made again - there WILL be new AIs - followed by self advancement of the AIs - which over powers the organics ability to adapt - which can create a non-sympathetic to organics synthetic (say that 10x fast...)

The next couple of generations would most likely be alright - but there is no reason someone wouldn't eventually start up the making of synthetics... space is pretty big and there are plenty of hiding spaces.

Even with the Geth... and Edi.. and others - the universe isnt limited to just those - there will be others - not all created out of the "goodness of humanity"

That's basically the message the writers were trying to get across. They repeated it many times throughout the entire trilogy. But the fans just won't accept it. It's like the've never seen a Terminator movie. It's quite obvious the fans aren't going to accept any ending Bioware can come up with. No matter what Bioware thinks of, the fans will simply say a character is lying & everything will fall apart from there.  

Modifié par Steelgrave, 24 avril 2012 - 04:32 .

[ogtrplganggrl]

Creid-X wrote...

I adhere to Clavain's words in Redemption Ark. (sci-fi book from Alastair Reynolds)

In a situation virtually identical to Shepard's:

"Clavain saw it all with sudden, heart-stopping clarity: all that mattered was the here and now. All that mattered was survival. Sentience that bowed down and accepted its own extinction — no matter what the long-term arguments, no matter how good the greater cause — was not the kind of sentience he was interested in preserving. Nor was it the kind he was interested in serving."

Wow! That's beautiful! I think I'll check out that book.

[Oakshire]

The Angry One wrote...

Oakshire wrote...

Even with the Geth... and Edi.. and others - the universe isnt limited to just those - there will be others - not all created out of the "goodness of humanity"

And? So? Therefore? That they'll even come close to wiping out all organic life is an assumption literally based on nothing.

There's no evidence, only an appeal to the authority of a mass murderer.

Why do you need evidence?

A species (organic or synthetic) would eventually require more resoucesin order to expand its cause.

The galaxies resources are finite
 
Eventually cultures would but heads - causing conflict - it has happened 100s of times in recorded human history ... if an AI synthetic were to run off into space and build its own station - run out of resources - and need some from an occupied planet... there is little reason, over time, things wouldn't become hostile.  It is all a matter of chance... and time without limits - synthetics are without bounds while organics have limits

[The Angry One]

I just love how this person keeps saying that not believing THE BAD GUYS is a bad thing.

I guess the people who thought Saruman and Emperor Palpatine were full of crap were doing it wrong too eh?

[richard_rider]

All I know is that for 3 games reapers have been trying to kill me, and pretty much everyone I care about...I'm not going to listen to their advocate (creator, whatever) that's introduced in the last few minutes, and forces me into a pigeonhole.

Saren and Sovereign couldn't stop me, Harbinger and the Collectors couldn't stop me, but oh wait, I'm going to listen to Casper to nonsensical ghost and take it at face value, no, I'm going to make sweet, tender love to his behind with my fist.

[YourFunnyUncle]

The reason I don't like destroy is because by destroying the reapers you're eradicating the last remaining traces of every advanced galactic civilisation that has come before. That and killing the Geth and Edi.

Although I agree that all the endings need more explanation and Shepard should need a hell of a lot more convincing, I think that the point is supposed to be that there is no ideal ending. Whichever one you choose is "wrong" in some way.

[The Angry One]

Oakshire wrote...

Why do you need evidence?

Extraordinairy claims require extraordinairy evidence.
Or in this case, any evidence.

A species (organic or synthetic) would eventually require more resoucesin order to expand its cause.

The galaxies resources are finite
 
Eventually cultures would but heads - causing conflict - it has happened 100s of times in recorded human history ... if an AI synthetic were to run off into space and build its own station - run out of resources - and need some from an occupied planet... there is little reason, over time, things wouldn't become hostile.  It is all a matter of chance... and time without limits - synthetics are without bounds while organics have limits

So conflicts happen. So what?
It is not a guarantee that synthetics will win.
It is not a guarantee that synthetics will exterminate anyone, let alone all organic life.
It is not a guarantee that peace could not be achieved at any point.

Also, the galaxy's resources are finite. So how is maintaining a 50,000 year cycle going to help? All these civilisations rising and falling should've drained the galaxy dry by now.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 avril 2012 - 04:36 .

[bleetman]

Steelgrave wrote...

 If you choose the "destroy" ending synthetic life like the Geth will rise up again in the future & destroy all organic life. The Reaprs were created to prevent that from happening. If you choose "destroy" you're not just destroying the Reapers, you're destroying all organic life in the future.  You're killing your grandchildren & great grandchildren. Erasing their future.  The Catalyst even tells you this right out.  It's amazing how many players just don't get it.

I'm more inclined to believe what's demonstrated across two games than whatever agenda the creator of the Reapers is trying to shove in my face. The only synthetics in the entire setting that have been openly hostile to all organics are the Reapers, and the ones working for the Reapers.

So, yeah. No.

The Angry One wrote...

So conflicts happen. So what?
It is not a guarantee that synthetics will win.
It is not a guarantee that synthetics will exterminate anyone, let alone all organic life.
It is not a guarantee that peace could not be achieved at any point.

Indeed. Not to mention, if we're going to start wiping out races because they might turn hostile at some point, well, ****. Why stop with worrying about synthetics? Let's just destroy every species everywhere.

Modifié par bleetman, 24 avril 2012 - 04:39 .

[Oakshire]

The Angry One wrote...

Oakshire wrote...

Why do you need evidence?

Extraordinairy claims require extraordinairy evidence.
Or in this case, any evidence.

So conflicts happen. So what?
It is not a guarantee that synthetics will win.
It is not a guarantee that synthetics will exterminate anyone, let alone all organic life.
It is not a guarantee that peace could not be achieved at any point.

And Its not a guarantee that synthetics won't kill everyone also - same deal lol

[Nobrandminda]

Steelgrave wrote...

 If you choose the "destroy" ending synthetic life like the Geth will rise up again in the future & destroy all organic life. The Reaprs were created to prevent that from happening. If you choose "destroy" you're not just destroying the Reapers, you're destroying all organic life in the future.  You're killing your grandchildren & great grandchildren. Erasing their future.  The Catalyst even tells you this right out.  It's amazing how many players just don't get it.
 

We understood what the Catalyst was saying just fine.

We just don't believe him.  He's the leader of the Reapers for crying out loud.  Of course he doesn't want you to destroy them.

Modifié par Nobrandminda, 24 avril 2012 - 04:39 .

[tomcplotts]

Steelgrave wrote...

jreezy wrote...



Sadly, it seems like you were the one not paying attention. 

Sorry, I paid attention.  The difference is, I'm not second guessing every single line of dialogue in the game like everybody else is. I'm not saying every character in the game is a liar like everybody else. The fans are saying that you can't trust anything TIM or the Catalyst says. So even though the game stated a million times that the created will always rebel against their creators, the fans are saying, "No!, They won't! You don't know what will happen in the future". Basically going against everything established in the game.

I feel sorry for Bioware. There's no way in hell they can come up with an ending. They came up with 3 different endings & the fans won't accept any of them because every character in the game is lying.  They can come up with 20 more & the fans still won't accept them. The fans will come up with an argument for any ending they can think up.

In a sense, yes. They committed themselves in ME1 to giving the Reapers a hgiher purpose claiming our extermination was for our own good. That was the games central design flaw and obviously they wrote themselves into a corner with it. But I think they could have backed out of Sovereign a little in ME2--and to an extent they did--and just have the Reapers be possessive bastards who clean house when they think there's too many mice around.

But focusing on the OCD fans isn't fair, because that's not a good description of the large chunk of people who object to how this game was handled. Most of us are perfectly fine with small bouts of discontinuity and illogic in the name of a good yarn. Yes, a lot of these guys are taking the plot hole thing way too seriously for an entertainment medium. That's just their way. But pleasing them isn't job number one for any dev team because, as you pint out, it's usually impossible.

But that's not a case for being narratively stupid to the point of insult, either.

[d-boy15]

YourFunnyUncle wrote...

The reason I don't like destroy is because by destroying the reapers you're eradicating the last remaining traces of every advanced galactic civilisation that has come before.

I call that a mercy killing. the geth and edi are cost because writer know that if they not hold them as hostage
many peoples will choose destroy without second though and the other lame ending will be meaningless.

Modifié par d-boy15, 24 avril 2012 - 04:40 .

[mastersweet]

Steelgrave wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Steelgrave wrote...

Helm505 wrote...

Only if you believe that conflict between Organics and Synthetics is inevitable. And the only reason you have to believe that is the Catalyst told you it was.

And the fact that it happens over & over again in every cycle throughout time.  Javik's cycle had the same problem. And the one before that, and the onebefore that..  You have to be completely out of touch with reality to believe it won't happen again. An optimistic daydreamer that believes in fairytales & happy endings. In other words, a complete IDIOT!

irony
Do you know who caused the problem in Javik's cycle?
THE REAPERS.

Before then, the Zha'till were actually full hybrids, organics and synthetics co-existing in one body.
The Protheans were at war with them, yes. But knowing the Protheans it was probably them who started it.
Point is, the Zha'till didn't overthrow their organic hosts until the Reapers forced them to. Oops.

The Catalyst's ridiculous assertions are wrong. Even if synthetics and organics fight, nothing says synthetics will exterminate all organics. NOTHING. The Zha'till didn't. The Geth didn't. The only ones who do are the Reapers.

To put it another way, if you believe the Catalyst, congratulations! You bought a sack of crap from the world's glowiest fertilizer salesman.

They were at war with Synthetic AI's when the Reapers showed up. Javik even says so in the game.  I think he called it the Metatron War or something like that. 

It happens in EVERY cycle.  That's the reason the Reapers were creted in the first place.   DUIH!!!  You guys just don't understand this story at all.  You argue & argue & argue but just don't understand the story.  It's like you're trying to complete a puzzle but only have half the pieces.  You don't pay attention then jump on the boards trying to act like you know every single little thing about it.
  

[Kreid]

Guys, the thing isn't trying to scry the future from a Cristal ball, no one knows what would happen in an hypothetical future, not even the Catalyst.

The real question is whether you trust organic life to self-determine themselves and build a future of their own, or if you think it's better to have a extrenal force that will ensure their survival but at a great cost.

Modifié par Creid-X, 24 avril 2012 - 04:41 .

[ArchDuck]

Why trust the catalyst when we know he is either a liar or delusional?

Just to show what I mean here is part of my posts from another thread:

The catalyst, as currently presented, is either a liar or delusional. There is at least three examples where the catalyst is either using a false arguement or has been proven to be wrong.

1) Destroy doesn't neccesarily kill Shepard (and possibly not even synthetics as some people have reported EDI in the Normandy cutscene)

2) Evolution doesn't have a final stage

Evolution by definition has no final evolutionary state.
Also if it did, you could not know what form that would be unless you also knew, with 100% certainty, the exact course of the future.

So can the reapers/catalyst know the future with 100% certainty?
If the answer is "no" then they have no clue what the final state of evolution is.
If the answer is "yes" then there is nothing to discuss because they can do and know the impossible so reapers win, the end.

3) The lie about synthesis solving the problem of organics and synthetics.
Just to explain what I mean about the synthetic vs. organic; what is stopping the organic/synthetic hybrids from making more pure synthetics and/or pure organics? The synthesis ending does not actually stop the reason that the reapers say they are doing this for. After all, pure synthetics and pure organics can be made in the future and eventually pure organic life will evolve again.

That is three and we are even ignoring the 'created will always rebel' fallacy.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 24 avril 2012 - 04:44 .

[Mr.House]

Sorry I don't listen to bs logic from the enemy. The fact that the Reapers have never rebelled just proves he is wrong right off the bat. My Shepards goal was to destory the Reapwers, she did and I also don't beleive EDI and the Geth are dead since we never see it happen. So ya, Starbrat and his logic can go to hell.

This is the same idiot who thinks robots have dna.

Modifié par Mr.House, 24 avril 2012 - 04:44 .

[kal_reegar]

synthetics will destroy all organics in the future? bah.

a) i don't think it's inevitable, a "dogma" -> experience proves otherwise, and what about the other galaxies? Don't they have organics who build synthetics who destroy all organics in the galaxy, became immortal and spread around the universe killing everybody? The catalyst is full of ****, imho.
even if he's right, who really cares? in 5-10 billion of years all the stars will die anyway, and so ALL the organic life. For me, it makes no difference. 10 million years, 10 billion years... what's the difference? Extinction comes for us all.
I just want to live and possibly survive here and now, I want my friends survive as they are (not as disgusting cyborgs) and I want my enemis in the dust.

So, Red Endig forever.

[The Angry One]

Oakshire wrote...

And Its not a guarantee that synthetics won't kill everyone also - same deal lol

Aside from the fact that it never happened before the Reapers existed.

"It might happen" is not a justification for billions of years of genocide.

[d-boy15]

Creid-X wrote...

Guys, the thing isn't trying to scry the future from a Cristal ball, no one knows what would happen in an hypothetical future, not even the Catalyst.

The real question is whether you trust organic life to self-determine themselves and build a future of their own, or if you think it's better to have a extrenal force that will ensure their survival but at a great cost.

this.

I see many people try to argue what is the best to protect their endings but the real thing is all ending suck!

[BDelacroix]

Simple answer that fits:


Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a town, stay there a year, conduct business, and make money." You do not know what tomorrow will bring.

[N7 Banshee Bait]

The Angry One wrote...

I just love how this person keeps saying that not believing THE BAD GUYS is a bad thing.

I guess the people who thought Saruman and Emperor Palpatine were full of crap were doing it wrong too eh?

This person is saying that there is no way to end the trilogy because the fans won't believe anything!  And they'll argue with everything!  So WTF is Bioware supposed to do??? 

Even if Shepard destroys the Reapers & everybody lives happily ever, you think the fans will be satisfied? There has to be a point to the Reapers, a reason why they were created in the first place, a reason why we invested hundreds of hours playing. If Shepard simply destroys them it will create a million questions.  Bioware tried to answer some of those questions but the fans won't accept any of them.

The Protheans don't know anything & the fans won't believe anything the "BAD GUYS" say.  Where does that leave us? What is Bioware suposed to do?

Modifié par Steelgrave, 24 avril 2012 - 04:48 .

[ArchDuck]

d-boy15 wrote...

I see many people try to argue what is the best to protect their endings but the real thing is all endings suck!

True enough. Its mainly about the lesser of 3 great evils.

[Nobrandminda]

Steelgrave wrote...

jreezy wrote...



Sadly, it seems like you were the one not paying attention. 

Sorry, I paid attention.  The difference is, I'm not second guessing every single line of dialogue in the game like everybody else is. I'm not saying every character in the game is a liar like everybody else. The fans are saying that you can't trust anything TIM or the Catalyst says. So even though the game stated a million times that the created will always rebel against their creators, the fans are saying, "No!, They won't! You don't know what will happen in the future". Basically going against everything established in the game.

I feel sorry for Bioware. There's no way in hell they can come up with an ending. They came up with 3 different endings & the fans won't accept any of them because every character in the game is lying.  They can come up with 20 more & the fans still won't accept them. The fans will come up with an argument for any ending they can think up.

We're not second guessing "every single line of dialogue."  We're just second guessing the Catalyst and the only reason we're doing that is because we weren't allowed to do so in the game.

Think about it.  With every other character that Shepard talks to, you're able to agree or disagree with their viewpoints.  If you don't trust TIM in ME2, you're allowed to say so. Hell, you can even tell the Council or Alliance command to screw off in ME1 just because you feel like it.  

Not so with the Catalyst.  The Catalyst says his bit, and you make your choice.  That's it.  There's no chance to argue with him, or ask for more information.  He is the one character in the game whom we're supposed to believe speaks the gospel truth, and he's the leader of the Reapers.  Distrusting him the only common sense approach.

[The Angry One]

Steelgrave wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I just love how this person keeps saying that not believing THE BAD GUYS is a bad thing.

I guess the people who thought Saruman and Emperor Palpatine were full of crap were doing it wrong too eh?

This person is saying that there is no way to end the trilogy because the fans won't believe anything!  And they'll argue with everything!  So WTF is Bioware supposed to do???

The only one arguing for the sake of arguing is you.

Even if Shepard destroys the Reapers & everybody lives happily ever, you think the fans will be satisfied?

Yes.

There has to be a point to the Reapers, a reason why they were created in the first place. If Shepard simply destroys them it will create a million questions.  Bioware tried to answer some of those questions but the fans won't accept any of them.

Because the answers are stupid.

The Protheans don't know anything & the fans won't believe anything the "BAD GUYS" say.  Where does that leave us? What is Bioware suposed to do?

I must've missed the part where Javik was presented as an uncontradictable teller of truths.

Also: Answer my challenge.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 avril 2012 - 04:50 .

[Mr.House]

Bioware explained the motivation of the Reapers and it was horrible. They ruined the Reapers. They should have never explained it or who built them in the first place.