249 réponses à ce sujet

[gurg13]

Without a narrative anchor in the ending, you have no real understanding of the consequences of your choice. Trying to extrapolate back to validate your choices is also fruitless as each outcome produces incongruent plot holes. This does seem to suggest that the Catalyst maybe lying, but without an understandable result of your choice, all you can do is speculate.

[daecath]

Steelgrave wrote...

 If you choose the "destroy" ending synthetic life like the Geth will rise up again in the future & destroy all organic life. The Reaprs were created to prevent that from happening. If you choose "destroy" you're not just destroying the Reapers, you're destroying all organic life in the future.  You're killing your grandchildren & great grandchildren. Erasing their future.  The Catalyst even tells you this right out.  It's amazing how many players just don't get it.

If you choose "control" Shepard can bring the Reapers in to keep the synthetics under "control'. When they rise up agsint their creators Shepard can stop them.

If you choose "synthesis" there won't be any conflict between organics & synthetics anymore. The Reapers & the whole Mass Effect series is about the conflict between organcs & synthetics. If you combine the 2 you remove the conflict. No need for the Reapers or the cycle anymore. You achieve universal peace. 

Are you being serious or funny? I can't tell.

The Mass Effect series was NEVER about the conflict between organics and synthetics. It was about the conflict between the Reapers and the rest of the galaxy. There were some sideplots that kind of touched on a theme of organics vs. synthetics, but not really, and never stated that "the created will always turn on their creators". It was shown that the geth were just defending themselves. And EDI never turned on anyone. So the entire premise of the ending is stupid, and makes no sense with everything else in the last 150 hours.

[Mr.House]

RShara wrote...

No, the series is about organics vs organics, and everybody vs the Reapers.
As has been previously stated, Javik's war was due to HYBRIDS, NOT synthetics. And they were winning until the REAPERS took over the hybrids.
Tali and Legion become friends. Therefore, peace IS possible.

And here is a logical fallacy for you.

How do the Reapers KNOW that synthetics WILL wipe out all organic life? Obviously, it has NEVER HAPPENED before, otherwise the galactic races wouldn't be there. Therefore, there is no HISTORICAL PROOF that this will happen.

The Starkid is just blowing smoke.

And what's funny is that Bioware thinks the best ending is merge, which is making hybrids.

[Stygian1]

Steelgrave wrote...


Did you even play ME1? Did you hear anything Saren said? Did you hear anything Sovereign or Harbinger said? Did you hear anything Tali or Legion said? Did you hear anything Javik said about his cycle? Did you hear anything they said in the Collector base?  Did you hear anything EDI said?  Did you hear anything The Illusive Man said? 

The entire series is about synthetics vs organics.

Saren was talking about Reapers. Your point is moot.

Sovereign and Harbinger never alluded to anything about ordinary Synthetics attacking humans, just Reapers.

Tali and Legion (moreover Quarians vs Geth) arc is destroyed by the fact organics attacked first.

Javik's cycle's synthetic problem was instigated by the Reapers. 

Collector base? WTF are you talking about. 

EDI dated an Organic. Again, that's pro synthetic organic relation. 

And again, what DID the Illusive man say. Stop pulling crap out of your bum. 

[N7 Banshee Bait]

Stygian1 wrote...

Steelgrave wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...


I see many people try to argue what is the best to protect their endings but the real thing is all ending suck!

Ok!  Then come up with an ending that doesn't suck that the fans will all agree on.  If you're so smart, what do you think the ending should be?  You won't be able to come up with a single thing because no matter what you say the fans will find a reason that it doesn't make sense.  

Ok, how about one where the crucible fires how it was intended and only kills the Reapers, no one teleports to Giligan's island, and everyone lives happily ever after. With the option of failing totally with low EMS. 

Done. A three year old could best your challenge. 

Yeah, the happy happy joy joy Hollywood ending. Build up the threat of the Reapers over 3 games, then simply wrap it all up with a super duper doomsday weapon that will somehow only affect the Reapers. No species in the universe even knows what it does or how it works. But it will just magically make everything alright & save the day!

I said one that the FANS WILL AGREE ON!   

And when did they say the Crucible fires? In the game I played nobody had a clue what it was supposed to do. And once they atteached it to the Citadel they didn't know how to activate it.  HACKETT: "Nothings happening. It must be something on your end".  SHEPARD:"Uh......???"

Modifié par Steelgrave, 24 avril 2012 - 05:14 .

[Stygian1]

Steelgrave wrote...

Stygian1 wrote...

Steelgrave wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...


I see many people try to argue what is the best to protect their endings but the real thing is all ending suck!

Ok!  Then come up with an ending that doesn't suck that the fans will all agree on.  If you're so smart, what do you think the ending should be?  You won't be able to come up with a single thing because no matter what you say the fans will find a reason that it doesn't make sense.  

Ok, how about one where the crucible fires how it was intended and only kills the Reapers, no one teleports to Giligan's island, and everyone lives happily ever after. With the option of failing totally with low EMS. 

Done. A three year old could best your challenge. 

Yeah, the happy happy joy joy Hollywood ending. Build up the threat of the Reapers over 3 games, then simply wrap it all up with a super duper doomsday weapon that will somehow only affect the Reapers. No species in the universe even knows what it does or how it works. But it will just magically make everything alright & save the day!

I said one that the FANS WILL AGREE ON!   

OH SORRY, I forgot the other two games ended with really sad non-cliche endings. Oh wait, they ended with hollwood style epic happy endings. 

Secondly, notice how I said failure is an option? Thirdly, notice how having a plot that is not overtly complex does not a bad story make. 

You and the few who agree with you are a minority. My ending right there would have made more fans happy than the crap BioWare came up with. 

[Kreid]

Stygian1 wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

I disagree, there are a lot of instances of organic vs synthetics throughout the series.

Shepard vs the Reapers
The rogue AI on the presidium
Hannibal VI/AI in luna
Killer VI's infected by a virus in ME2
Geth vs Quarians
EDI rebelling against Cerberus after Joker unshackles her
Project Overlord

And I'm sure there's some more around.

None of these forshadowed to a larger Synthetic uprising.

Meanwhile, the Geth and Quarian arc devolved into the Quarians as the agressors, basicalyl ruining BioWare's primary forshadowing tool for the ending. Secondly, Shepard vs the Reapers does not count as they are the ones acting like they are solving the "problem."

Any VI arguement makes no sense as they aren't true AI's, just defective. EDI rebelled against cerberus to protect her ORGANIC crewmates (go figure). Never played Overlord, but wouldn't be surprised if the AI had some relation to reaper tech. 

They don't have to be conflicts perse, they are just examples of how difficult it is for organics and synthetics to cohexist. Overlord for example serves as a great example of how little it takes to nearly unleash a technological apocalypse of galactic proportions by spacefaring races.

And, I feel that I've said it many times but, while I agree that within the game's narrative the Quarian-Geth situation encourages us to believe peace might be achieved it doesn't mean it will last, it's a moot point.

 

Modifié par Creid-X, 24 avril 2012 - 05:15 .

[Samuel L Shepard]

@OP On page two you mentioned that fighting between organics and synthetics is inevitable but understand that throughout the three games they show this has happened because of the reapers. Every race has the same problems because every race follows the reapers "path" and is blinded to "alternatives" according to legion.
What would happen if every race in the galaxy had to find out their own way of travelling-we don't know but one thing we do know is it would be a completely different place. This is one of my reasons to put starchilds logic under scrutiny because the reapers have instigated this path for organics themselves, say this happens and that happens and theres no way of changing it but theydont let organics prove them wrong.

In short, cycle repeats because reapers will it to repeat thats why they should be destroyed and choose self determination.

[ArchDuck]

Steelgrave wrote...

Yeah, the happy happy joy joy Hollywood ending. Build up the threat of the Reapers over 3 games, then simply wrap it all up with a super duper doomsday weapon that will somehow only affect the Reapers. No species in the universe even knows what it does or how it works. But it will just magically make everything alright & save the day!

I said one that the FANS WILL AGREE ON!   

And when did they say the Crucible fires? In the game I played nobody had a clue what it was supposed to do. 

100% conscensus? Its never happened before so why would a new ending be the first?

Normally when someone says "the fans" the mean the majority of fans not every single fan. So that is your mistake. The fans can be made happy. 100% of fans can not.

Also, again I would like to say that OP, if you care to make a rebuttal to my post on page 4, I would be happy to listen to your explanation as to why the Catalyst is not a liar and/or delusional.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 24 avril 2012 - 05:16 .

[Samuel L Shepard]

Hope people understood that after i re read it, couldnt quite out my thoughts into words lol.

[Stygian1]

Done feeding OP

/signing out.

[Siegdrifa]

Steelgrave wrote...


If you choose "synthesis" there won't be any conflict between organics & synthetics anymore. The Reapers & the whole Mass Effect series is about the conflict between organcs & synthetics. If you combine the 2 you remove the conflict. No need for the Reapers or the cycle anymore. You achieve universal peace. 

What a laught !

1 - the ME theme is not organic VS synthetics.
Was there any evidence in the lore that it was the core subject ? no.
Did the prothean face it ? not that we heard of. Did other extinct races before face it ? not that we heard of.
Do we actualy face it in ME1 2 3, only from geths, but geths & quarian is not more important than  genophage, human vs turian, human vs battarien, rachni wars. So sorry to burst your bubble but a theme is NOT hidden and buried until the very, very end of a trilogie, it's retarted as a concept.
Organic VS synthetic is at best a justification, that serve only the introduction of the ending, becuse in game we learn :
 - geths never excuted quarians that sided and stayed with them during the morning wars
 - peace can be achived between them, geths even integrated quarian suit to optimise and improve their efficiency

ME theme is about cooperating and uniting different races no matter their looks and history to face a crisis that endanger all life in the universe (organics and synthetic included):
race fighting each other ? Check ! (geths vs quarian, turians vs human, turian vs krogan vs rachni etc)
Can we achieve peace together and help each other ?
human and turian cooperation. Check
Krogan and turian cooperation. Check
Geth and quarian cooperation. Check
Human and battarian cooperation. Check
Rachnis cooperation Check etc

Does those race plan to wage war against those they are cooperation ? not that we know of.
Wrex and Eve have no intention to let the krogans go rampage for vangeance (Wrex even want an embassy back at the citadell). Human vs turian ? since ME1 and human fleet sacrificing themself during the fight at the citadel, the turian respect the human and their sens of duty, thinking about further reparation for the first contact war (ME2 news).
Geths vs quarians ? geths never desired to fight against their creators, as long as there is peace, they are willing to help them.

2 - Synthesys grant peace among organic vs synthetic.
NO ! at best, it remove the perception of "because i'm synthetic, i must kill organic". Synthesys rewrit the DNA of all live, but it doesn't bring peace, there is no peace in the same DNA !
Look at ourself ! does our DNA protect us from war, murder, even incest or familly drama ? not at all.
What break peace is different motive, opinions, does synthesys take that out ? no.
The difference is, BEFORE, synthetic would kill us because we are organic, AFTER, well, they can still kill us, but it will be for another reason .... yay ! hurray !

3- Non-sens festival.
Synthesys, becoming somewhat hybride to erase the wall of synthetic and organics.... oh wait ! reapers are actualy made of synthetic and organic.
Reapers purpose, saving organic by killing them before they devloppe synthetics ?
 - faill 1 : quarian created geths
 - faill 2 : sauvereign use geths (synthetics) to help kill organics in order to preven organic to be killed by synthetic, while he could simply lure the geths wanting to kill organic in other ways *cought* geths revered sauvereign as a god, and you usualy listen to what your god say.
 - faill 3 : By letting the mass relay and citadel, the different races of galaxy actualy advance technologicaly a lot farther and faster, and so, can make synthetic more quickly as if they were cutted from each other.
 - faill 4 :  we fought Saren in first place because we where confident that OUR Shepard could actualy achieve better than him... Saren wanted to achieve peace by melting organic as and synthetic as one "the strenght of both, the weakness of neither", we faught against him because we refused that, in fact, WE fight to preserve the difference and still make peace between them (you, know, what we usualy do 80% of time in ME 1 2 and 3).

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 24 avril 2012 - 05:21 .

[TMcKfly]

The Angry One wrote...

I hereby present a challenge, OP.
Present one single example of an synthetic life form in Mass Effect even attempting to exterminate all organic life, 100% of it as per the Catalyst's claim.

As counter examples I provide:
- The Geth
- The Zha'til
- EDI
- The Reapers themselves

You only have to provide one. Go.

There you have it right there. Destory wins. Hands down.

[IUDEX99]

Steelgrave wrote...

 If you choose the "destroy" ending synthetic life like the Geth will rise up again in the future & destroy all organic life. The Reaprs were created to prevent that from happening. If you choose "destroy" you're not just destroying the Reapers, you're destroying all organic life in the future.  You're killing your grandchildren & great grandchildren. Erasing their future.  The Catalyst even tells you this right out.  It's amazing how many players just don't get it.[...]
. 

"It's amazing how many players just don't get it." - harsh words.

I could use harsh words as well,but I won't.
The possibilty of something happening is not the guarantee that it's happening.
Just because aomeone tells you what he thinks might happen in the future does not make it happen.

If the destroy ending is chosen and future generations decide to build synthetic life it is their own free will. It is their decision. It's not the problem you're facing when you decide about the fate of the reapers.

[DJBare]

Samuel L Shepard wrote...

@OP On page two you mentioned that fighting between organics and synthetics is inevitable but understand that throughout the three games they show this has happened because of the reapers. Every race has the same problems because every race follows the reapers "path" and is blinded to "alternatives" according to legion.
What would happen if every race in the galaxy had to find out their own way of travelling-we don't know but one thing we do know is it would be a completely different place. This is one of my reasons to put starchilds logic under scrutiny because the reapers have instigated this path for organics themselves, say this happens and that happens and theres no way of changing it but theydont let organics prove them wrong.

In short, cycle repeats because reapers will it to repeat thats why they should be destroyed and choose self determination.

A detail that some appear to conveniently forget, lets remind them

www.youtube.com/watch

[Verit]

Steelgrave wrote...
And the fact that it happens over & over again in every cycle throughout time.  Javik's cycle had the same problem. And the one before that, and the onebefore that..  You have to be completely out of touch with reality to believe it won't happen again. An optimistic daydreamer that believes in fairytales & happy endings. In other words, a complete IDIOT!

This post isn't even worth replying to, but anyway: did you fail to notice the cycle where the same conflicts are said to reappear are actually controlled by the Reapers? Remember Sovereign told you that the Reapers made everything evolve along a predetermined path? Did you notice that the Reapers actively controlled the geth and forced them to attack organics? Vendetta even suggests that there was something controlling the Reapers and actively maintaining all the patterns you mentioned. Breaking the cycle means you effectively break all those patterns, which means there's no way for anyone to determine what will happen next.

[goose2989]

Steelgrave wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...


I see many people try to argue what is the best to protect their endings but the real thing is all ending suck!

Ok!  Then come up with an ending that doesn't suck that the fans will all agree on.  If you're so smart, what do you think the ending should be?  You won't be able to come up with a single thing because no matter what you say the fans will find a reason that it doesn't make sense.  

There is a big difference between making an ending that doesn't make sense, and being unable to please every individual fan. There was no way Bioware would please everyone, and we (the dans) knew that. But the ending is unpopular because it simply does not fit as the ending to Mass Effect. I'm sure, despite your best efforts to disagree, that you can see the ending of Mass Effect 3 is not in line with the things that made Mass Effect great. All those characters we've grown to love? They aren't involved in the ending. That ultimate goal that we've had for five years? We must stop the Reapers? It is thrown out in favor of a goal of solving the problems between organic and snthetic life. Stopping the Reapers simply becomes a side effect of our new goal. Introducing the Catalyst simply makes the Reapers a red herring. 

It may not have been very surprising, but based on the players' goal over the past five years, having the ending be about anything more than stopping the Reapers is both unneccessary and out of line. I don't care if it would have been predictable; stopping the Reapers was always our goal in Mass Effect, not solving the "inevitable" tension between organics and synthetics. 

[guacamayus]

Kalundume wrote...

Nonsense OP, the whole organics vs synthetics thing is so absurd as any other similar claim...

Different people were described in the history as unable to live together peacefully and the history has always proven that claims wrong, the capacity to maintain a peace is as important as a capacity to commence the war between two, seemingly peaceful countries - it depends on a lot of variables, the unique claim about organics vs synthetics is empty like a fired bullet shell

Except those weren't synthetics, once they achieve superintelligence status you can't tell what will happen. The only entity able to determine such odds would be a massive super computer with enough data to generate valid results, far ahead the technology of any species...

so maybe distrusting the catalyst is not a good idea after all...

Modifié par guacamayus, 24 avril 2012 - 05:23 .

[ArchDuck]

Samuel L Shepard wrote...

Hope people understood that after i re read it, couldnt quite out my thoughts into words lol.

I think you were clear enough. If I am not mistaken you stated that the instigator to every galactic near extinction event was the Reapers (Rachni, Geth, Zha'til, etc.).

[RShara]

Mr.House wrote...

RShara wrote...

No, the series is about organics vs organics, and everybody vs the Reapers.
As has been previously stated, Javik's war was due to HYBRIDS, NOT synthetics. And they were winning until the REAPERS took over the hybrids.
Tali and Legion become friends. Therefore, peace IS possible.

And here is a logical fallacy for you.

How do the Reapers KNOW that synthetics WILL wipe out all organic life? Obviously, it has NEVER HAPPENED before, otherwise the galactic races wouldn't be there. Therefore, there is no HISTORICAL PROOF that this will happen.

The Starkid is just blowing smoke.

And what's funny is that Bioware thinks the best ending is merge, which is making hybrids.

I know.  Starchild's logic doesn't make any sense no matter what.

You know what could have been the Reaper's motive?  Simply, reproduction.  They harvest organics to make more of themselves, and they believe that they are the ultimate evolution of life--Perfection.
And Shepard's choices could have been to join with them, and being maybe the "mastermind" of the humans (like Harbinger is basically the mind of whatever race he was from), or refuse "ascension" and destroy their possible hope to be like the Reapers.

Shepard might still need to die in either case, but at least the premise wouldn't be so retarded.

[Biotic_Warlock]

The geth won't kill in revenge.

It's just organics will try to kill them again (unprovoked) hence synthetics take over.
Organics kill themselves, the synthetics defend themselves.

[NoUserNameHere]

Catalyst is full of crap, though. The tech singularity (which here takes the form of 'evil robots' and ONLY evil robots) is crap. Everything about the ending is crap. At least I took Starbrat with me.

[psrz]

Steelgrave wrote...

Sorry, I paid attention.  The difference is, I'm not second guessing every single line of dialogue in the game like everybody else is. I'm not saying every character in the game is a liar like everybody else. The fans are saying that you can't trust anything TIM or the Catalyst says. So even though the game stated a million times that the created will always rebel against their creators, the fans are saying, "No!, They won't! You don't know what will happen in the future". Basically going against everything established in the game.

The Reapers haven't rebeled, have they ? And they've been around for like millions and millions of years ? The "created always rebel against their creators" doesnt seem to be working...

And yeah, I can expect TIM lying or StarBrat doing the same.... You know TIM, not gonna add to that.

And StarBrat ? sheesh...It's the responsible for billions and billions of deaths throughout millions of years. Wheather it thinks that's for the best, that all those billions of people brutally murdered are in a better place, that it did it for their own good, it's totally irrelevant.
StarBrat just doens't want its cycle of genocide broken (it can shove its good intentions). It's the worst threat that the galaxy has ever known. Destroying StarBrat and all the reapers it's the best solution
 
StarBrat: Shepard, go suicide and you win
Shepard: Ok.

That's just plain retarded.

[Pasicrates]

The Angry One wrote...

Steelgrave wrote...

No! It's not the same!  They harvest all *ADVANCED CIVILIZATIONS*, they don't wipe out all life.


Ya know?  If the fans are going to say that everything is lying in the game there is no way Bioware can possibly make an ending.  No matter what they come up with the fans will say it's all a lie. They really can't go anywhere with this story because the fans will simply say " don't trust him, he's lying, that's not really how it happened.".  Javik is full of crap! Vigil is full of crap! The Catalyst & TIM are full of crap!  How is Bioware supposed to make an ending that the fans will believe?  So far the fans have ignored everything that has been said in all 3 games.

Javik is biased. Vigil never said anything about this. The Catalyst is a liar. TIM? Hey, newsflash. TIM is the bad guy. Also, indoctrinated. You going to believe Saren next?

Also, still waiting for you to answer my challenge:

The Angry One wrote...

I hereby present a challenge, OP.
Present one single example of an synthetic life form in Mass Effect even attempting to exterminate all organic life, 100% of it as per the Catalyst's claim.

As counter examples I provide:
- The Geth
- The Zha'til
- EDI
- The Reapers themselves

You only have to provide one. Go.

I'm not sure if anyone has answered this yet, but does Operation Overlord count as a synthetic lifeform trying to kill everything? I guess Overlord, being what it was, is kind of ambiguous on the subject. 

[Samuel L Shepard]

@DJBare thats probably the best video to illustrate the self determination i was writing above. I always originally thought that was the main theme throughout the games- sovereign explains in me1 and legion in me2.