249 réponses à ce sujet

[Dendio1]

Pasicrates wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Steelgrave wrote...

No! It's not the same!  They harvest all *ADVANCED CIVILIZATIONS*, they don't wipe out all life.


Ya know?  If the fans are going to say that everything is lying in the game there is no way Bioware can possibly make an ending.  No matter what they come up with the fans will say it's all a lie. They really can't go anywhere with this story because the fans will simply say " don't trust him, he's lying, that's not really how it happened.".  Javik is full of crap! Vigil is full of crap! The Catalyst & TIM are full of crap!  How is Bioware supposed to make an ending that the fans will believe?  So far the fans have ignored everything that has been said in all 3 games.

Javik is biased. Vigil never said anything about this. The Catalyst is a liar. TIM? Hey, newsflash. TIM is the bad guy. Also, indoctrinated. You going to believe Saren next?

Also, still waiting for you to answer my challenge:

The Angry One wrote...

I hereby present a challenge, OP.
Present one single example of an synthetic life form in Mass Effect even attempting to exterminate all organic life, 100% of it as per the Catalyst's claim.

As counter examples I provide:
- The Geth
- The Zha'til
- EDI
- The Reapers themselves

You only have to provide one. Go.

I'm not sure if anyone has answered this yet, but does Operation Overlord count as a synthetic lifeform trying to kill everything? I guess Overlord, being what it was, is kind of ambiguous on the subject. 

EDI on project Luna...but she was confused right? ehh It wasen't a dedicated effort to extinct all life...

Modifié par Dendio1, 24 avril 2012 - 05:35 .

[Dendio1]

For the record Javik agrees with star kid on this matter, even though he is star kids mortal enemy
Shep can try to reason, but javik wants legion (and joker) thrown out the airlock

Modifié par Dendio1, 24 avril 2012 - 05:37 .

[The Angry One]

Pasicrates wrote...

I'm not sure if anyone has answered this yet, but does Operation Overlord count as a synthetic lifeform trying to kill everything? I guess Overlord, being what it was, is kind of ambiguous on the subject. 

Overlord is more like a hybrid going on a rampage.

Hybrids are the solution to everything right?

Dendio1 wrote...

EDI on project Luna...but she was confused right? ehh It wasen't a dedicated effort to extinct all life...

That was more like a blind panic induced rampage.
I'm talking about even planning to make an organised effort to exterminate organic life.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 avril 2012 - 05:38 .

[b2smooth]

If the problem was synthetics destroying organic life, why not program the Reapers to police the galaxy destroying all synthetics from the beginning?   That would make far more sense.  You create an AI the Reapers show up and "remove" it.

Modifié par b2smooth, 24 avril 2012 - 05:41 .

[guacamayus]

Creid-X wrote...

Stygian1 wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

I disagree, there are a lot of instances of organic vs synthetics throughout the series.

Shepard vs the Reapers
The rogue AI on the presidium
Hannibal VI/AI in luna
Killer VI's infected by a virus in ME2
Geth vs Quarians
EDI rebelling against Cerberus after Joker unshackles her
Project Overlord

And I'm sure there's some more around.

None of these forshadowed to a larger Synthetic uprising.

Meanwhile, the Geth and Quarian arc devolved into the Quarians as the agressors, basicalyl ruining BioWare's primary forshadowing tool for the ending. Secondly, Shepard vs the Reapers does not count as they are the ones acting like they are solving the "problem."

Any VI arguement makes no sense as they aren't true AI's, just defective. EDI rebelled against cerberus to protect her ORGANIC crewmates (go figure). Never played Overlord, but wouldn't be surprised if the AI had some relation to reaper tech. 

They don't have to be conflicts perse, they are just examples of how difficult it is for organics and synthetics to cohexist. Overlord for example serves as a great example of how little it takes to nearly unleash a technological apocalypse of galactic proportions by spacefaring races.

And, I feel that I've said it many times but, while I agree that within the game's narrative the Quarian-Geth situation encourages us to believe peace might be achieved it doesn't mean it will last, it's a moot point.

An example of it but that's not the point. EDI, the Geth, all of them didn't have the time to evolve yet, to leave organics behind.

Thing is Bioware did this on purpose to make fans speculate, there's no right or wrong answer. No one can predict what will happen when synthetics and their technology evolve far beyond organics.

[The Angry One]

Dendio1 wrote...

For the record Javik agrees with star kid on this matter, even though he is star kids mortal enemy
Shep can try to reason, but javik wants legion (and joker) thrown out the airlock

Javik is a product of his times. Ironically he probably has this attitude due to the Reapers themselves.
The Zha'till were always hybrids, so he can't really use them as proof of anything.

[The Angry One]

guacamayus wrote...

Thing is Bioware did this on purpose to make fans speculate, there's no right or wrong answer. No one can predict what will happen when synthetics and their technology evolve far beyond organics.

Then they did a terrible job.
You can't claim there's no right or wrong answer when every single piece of evidence we're shown contradicts the Catalyst.
Like I've said, the Geth prove him wrong. The Zha'till prove him wrong. HE PROVES HIMSELF WRONG. You cannot argue a grey area when the entire narrative clearly shows favour to one side of the argument.

[guacamayus]

It doesn't. It shows what happens when they achieve a status similar to organics, not what happens when they surpass it.

edit: there's one instance of an A.I. a lot more advanced and that's the catalyst. It doesn't inspire much hope.

Modifié par guacamayus, 24 avril 2012 - 05:45 .

[The Angry One]

guacamayus wrote...

It doesn't. It shows what happens when they achieve a status similar to organics, not what happens when they surpass it.

edit: there's one instance of an A.I. a lot more advanced and that's the catalyst. It doesn't inspire much hope.

The Geth arguably surpassed the Quarians. They controlled Rannoch for 300 years. They didn't even harm the birds there.

[RShara]

RShara wrote...
The series is about organics vs organics, and everybody vs the Reapers.
As has been previously stated, Javik's war was due to HYBRIDS, NOT synthetics. And they were winning until the REAPERS took over the hybrids.
Tali and Legion become friends. Therefore, peace IS possible.

And here is a logical fallacy for you.

How do the Reapers KNOW that synthetics WILL wipe out all organic life? Obviously, it has NEVER HAPPENED before, otherwise the galactic races wouldn't be there. Therefore, there is no HISTORICAL PROOF that this will happen.

The Starkid is just blowing smoke.

I'd like a rebuttal to this, anyone?

[txmn1016]

b2smooth wrote...

If the problem was synthetics destroying organic life, why not program the Reapers to police the galaxy destroying all synthetics from the beginning?   That would make far more sense.  You create an AI the Reapers show up and "remove" it.

Would this include VIs? Where do you draw the line? 

According to the ME universe--wouldn't this still be considered genocide (at least to a Paragon Shep)? 

[daecath]

Creid-X wrote...

Stygian1 wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

I disagree, there are a lot of instances of organic vs synthetics throughout the series.

Shepard vs the Reapers
The rogue AI on the presidium
Hannibal VI/AI in luna
Killer VI's infected by a virus in ME2
Geth vs Quarians
EDI rebelling against Cerberus after Joker unshackles her
Project Overlord

And I'm sure there's some more around.

None of these forshadowed to a larger Synthetic uprising.

Meanwhile, the Geth and Quarian arc devolved into the Quarians as the agressors, basicalyl ruining BioWare's primary forshadowing tool for the ending. Secondly, Shepard vs the Reapers does not count as they are the ones acting like they are solving the "problem."

Any VI arguement makes no sense as they aren't true AI's, just defective. EDI rebelled against cerberus to protect her ORGANIC crewmates (go figure). Never played Overlord, but wouldn't be surprised if the AI had some relation to reaper tech. 

They don't have to be conflicts perse, they are just examples of how difficult it is for organics and synthetics to cohexist. Overlord for example serves as a great example of how little it takes to nearly unleash a technological apocalypse of galactic proportions by spacefaring races.

And, I feel that I've said it many times but, while I agree that within the game's narrative the Quarian-Geth situation encourages us to believe peace might be achieved it doesn't mean it will last, it's a moot point.

The problem is that the story doesn't present them as "the created will always turn on their creators". It presents them as isolated conflicts with specific defined origins.

The geth didn't turn on their creators, they were protecting themselves. EDI fought against an evil organization to protect the rest of society. The rogue AI on the presidium was a megalomaniac. The others were random occurances, and I haven't finished Overlord yet, so I don't know. The Rachni were controlled by the Reapers. The Krogan are naturally aggressive, and were artificially advanced technologically beyond what they were ready for socially. The Batarians and humans, the turians and humans... oh wait. Those aren't synthetics. Sorry, my bad. It's just I got so wrapped up in listing all the conflicts presented by the game, that they just naturally got lumped in there. Because they aren't presented as any different - geth vs. quarian or turian vs. krogan, it's all the same.

My point is, there was never this existential "all created will eventually turn on their creators" presented anywhere in the game. It was always "group/individual x fighting against group/individual y because of z".

[Irishfafnir]

Steelgrave wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Steelgrave wrote...

Helm505 wrote...

Only if you believe that conflict between Organics and Synthetics is inevitable. And the only reason you have to believe that is the Catalyst told you it was.

And the fact that it happens over & over again in every cycle throughout time.  Javik's cycle had the same problem. And the one before that, and the onebefore that..  You have to be completely out of touch with reality to believe it won't happen again. An optimistic daydreamer that believes in fairytales & happy endings. In other words, a complete IDIOT!

Do you know who caused the problem in Javik's cycle?
THE REAPERS.

Before then, the Zha'till were actually full hybrids, organics and synthetics co-existing in one body.
The Protheans were at war with them, yes. But knowing the Protheans it was probably them who started it.
Point is, the Zha'till didn't overthrow their organic hosts until the Reapers forced them to. Oops.

The Catalyst's ridiculous assertions are wrong. Even if synthetics and organics fight, nothing says synthetics will exterminate all organics. NOTHING. The Zha'till didn't. The Geth didn't. The only ones who do are the Reapers.

To put it another way, if you believe the Catalyst, congratulations! You bought a sack of crap from the world's glowiest fertilizer salesman.

They were at war with Synthetic AI's when the Reapers showed up. Javik even says so in the game.  I think he called it the Metatron War or something like that. 

It happens in EVERY cycle.  That's the reason the Reapers were creted in the first place.   DUIH!!!  You guys just don't understand this story at all.  You argue & argue & argue but just don't understand the story.  It's like you're trying to complete a puzzle but only have half the pieces.  You don't pay attention then jump on the boards trying to act like you know every single little thing about it.
  

We only know that AI fought organics under the Prothean cycle anything that happened in the previous cycles is up for speculation. It's also important to note that Javik said the protheans were winning this war when the reapers showed up, which would seem to disprove the claim that Synthetic life would always destroy organic. Not to mention in our own cycle the Geth attacked the Quarians in  percieved self defense, and of course peace was brought to them by most shepards on Rannoch. 

[ArchDuck]

RShara wrote...

RShara wrote...
The series is about organics vs organics, and everybody vs the Reapers.
As has been previously stated, Javik's war was due to HYBRIDS, NOT synthetics. And they were winning until the REAPERS took over the hybrids.
Tali and Legion become friends. Therefore, peace IS possible.

And here is a logical fallacy for you.

How do the Reapers KNOW that synthetics WILL wipe out all organic life? Obviously, it has NEVER HAPPENED before, otherwise the galactic races wouldn't be there. Therefore, there is no HISTORICAL PROOF that this will happen.

The Starkid is just blowing smoke.

I'd like a rebuttal to this, anyone?

I personally agree with it so no rebuttal here. I am also waiting for the OP to rebuttal mine from page 4.

[ArchDuck]

txmn1016 wrote...

According to the ME universe--wouldn't this still be considered genocide (at least to a Paragon Shep)? 

Porbably not genocide as they wouldn't have time to create a culture but definitely serial murder of innocent intelligent individuals.

[Lookout1390]

Waiter, I asked for an ending and they sent me a steaming plate of speculation.

[daecath]

b2smooth wrote...

If the problem was synthetics destroying organic life, why not program the Reapers to police the galaxy destroying all synthetics from the beginning?   That would make far more sense.  You create an AI the Reapers show up and "remove" it.

Because they would just have to keep doing it. We'd create a synthetic race, they'd wait for the synthetics to turn on us, come in and save us, telling us not to do it again. We'd get the message, wait a while until our memories got fuzzy, and do it all over again.

Oh wait, they already have to do that now. My bad, never mind. Um, there is no good reason then, and the entire premise is just stupid.

[RShara]

ArchDuck wrote...

RShara wrote...

RShara wrote...
The series is about organics vs organics, and everybody vs the Reapers.
As has been previously stated, Javik's war was due to HYBRIDS, NOT synthetics. And they were winning until the REAPERS took over the hybrids.
Tali and Legion become friends. Therefore, peace IS possible.

And here is a logical fallacy for you.

How do the Reapers KNOW that synthetics WILL wipe out all organic life? Obviously, it has NEVER HAPPENED before, otherwise the galactic races wouldn't be there. Therefore, there is no HISTORICAL PROOF that this will happen.

The Starkid is just blowing smoke.

I'd like a rebuttal to this, anyone?

I personally agree with it so no rebuttal here. I am also waiting for the OP to rebuttal mine from page 4.

I'd like an answer to that too! 

[-Area51-Silent]

-Destroy ending (we destroy the reapers and all synthetics including the geth):

its interesting to think that its essentially blowing our future, but for all we know it could be. However it will probably take another 50k years to get the tech back up and working at that level if we consider that it fries hardware/software all across the galaxy.

We could also state that there is no proof of this, only assumption based on what (possibly) happened so far in the past, we know nothing of the reaper origins (outside of how they are made), and so we do not know if this solution was based on AI logic or a desire to survive from a dying organic race. That said, to make rash assumptions about every culture going foward is arrogant, so to state that it WILL happen with no proof is important.

Finally, we could state that none of this would happen if the reapers never got involved in the first place. Consider if organic life had figured out how to create mass relays on their own, instead of finding them and leaping foward to quickly in tehcnology, which ultimately leads to problems (my next argument about sythesis).

So without the reapers and reaper tech, I would argue that none of the assumptions made by the reapers would in fact be a problem, therefore the reapers themselves are what causes the actual issue. If destroy happens and all reaper tech is made worthless (save the physical components, no code though), we could argue that the cycle would stop due to no more reaper involvement. The galaxy would find its own way and evolve more natrually, thus having a better understanding of what it is they are doing, scaling back the potential for what the reapers predicted.

Essentially speaking the reapers make a self-fulfilling prophecy because they are the direct reason for the end result, thus with their removal (and the removal of their technology) we can argue that there is a higher probablity that the cycle will end.

[ArchDuck]

I personally think there is a good chance that the OP has fled, just like the OP of the Is Synthesis is disgusting ? thread.

[b2smooth]

txmn1016 wrote...

b2smooth wrote...

If the problem was synthetics destroying organic life, why not program the Reapers to police the galaxy destroying all synthetics from the beginning?   That would make far more sense.  You create an AI the Reapers show up and "remove" it.

Would this include VIs? Where do you draw the line? 

According to the ME universe--wouldn't this still be considered genocide (at least to a Paragon Shep)? 

Only sentient synthetics.  And I am saying the origninal creator of the Reapers.  Kill all organic life in the galaxy to protect it. Or kill the synthetic threat to that organic life.  Seems like if the creators (of the Reapers) were trying to save organics they would just eliminate sythetics.

Modifié par b2smooth, 24 avril 2012 - 05:57 .

[Meltemph]

 

 If you choose the "destroy" ending synthetic life like the Geth will rise up again in the future & destroy all organic life. The Reaprs were created to prevent that from happening. If you choose "destroy" you're not just destroying the Reapers, you're destroying all organic life in the future.  You're killing your grandchildren & great grandchildren. Erasing their future.  The Catalyst even tells you this right out.  It's amazing how many players just don't get it.

This is a massive assumption.  If the reapers can figure out a solution to their hypothetical problem, so can any other organism.  Also, this is assuming you even accept the premise as a whole that rebelling will lead to snyhtetics wanting to destroy all life.  You accept the premise, that is great, but that chances of that happening VS anything else is just as likely.

If you choose "control" Shepard can bring the Reapers in to keep the synthetics under "control'. When they rise up agsint their creators Shepard can stop them.

How do you figure?  You die and you lose everything you have.  Also, the starchild sticks around, with no idea if the contorl is a permanent thing or not.  You are literally guessing and hoping it all works out.

If you choose "synthesis" there won't be any conflict between organics & synthetics anymore. The Reapers & the whole Mass Effect series is about the conflict between organcs & synthetics. If you combine the 2 you remove the conflict. No need for the Reapers or the cycle anymore. You achieve universal peace.

Racism isnt the problem here.  Synthesis solves nothing, unless you believe all the galaxies woes boils down to racism.  The created will still happen, and when they reach sintients there is always going to be a chance the creators will still want to stay in power, which means fear of being surpased or fear of a lack of power.  The perspective doesnt change and the problem isnt racism, as much as people here seem to want it to be.  

Everything I just said with snyhtesis is an unprovable nonfalsifiable claim, but that is just it, you have no clue if synthesis works out, all you know is that the reapers will stop the cycle, at least for now.

Modifié par Meltemph, 24 avril 2012 - 05:58 .

[Vox Draco]

Steelgrave wrote...
Even if Shepard destroys the Reapers & everybody lives happily ever, you think the fans will be satisfied? There has to be a point to the Reapers, a reason why they were created in the first place, a reason why we invested hundreds of hours playing. If Shepard simply destroys them it will create a million questions.  Bioware tried to answer some of those questions but the fans won't accept any of them.
The Protheans don't know anything & the fans won't believe anything the "BAD GUYS" say.  Where does that leave us? What is Bioware suposed to do?

well...I can speak only for my self, but it would surely satisfy me...and I doubt I am alone in this

And the point of the reapers was? Hmm...let's see, they actually changed from an uncomprehesible, outlandish, cthuluh-like race of powerful machines harvesting all life for their sinister purposes into...a bunch of mindless toy-squids for a genocidal AI taking the form of a kid? Then I really prefer that they never explain the reapers at all...in my mind they were far more threatening...

And my questions never were: What are the reapers? Why do they do this? Who created them?

I don't care! All I wanted to see is the Reapers stopped, preferably destroyed, and humans and Shepard (alive!) triumph over them...and then let them rebuild and reshape the galaxy along the path the free people of the galaxy are choosing!

so what bioware should have done? Leave the questions about the reapers open for speculation, and instead ANSWER the questions about what happens to Shepard and her friends after the enemy is gone...you know, the questions that have gathered so many angry fans here on the forums by now...

[b2smooth]

RShara wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

RShara wrote...

RShara wrote...
The series is about organics vs organics, and everybody vs the Reapers.
As has been previously stated, Javik's war was due to HYBRIDS, NOT synthetics. And they were winning until the REAPERS took over the hybrids.
Tali and Legion become friends. Therefore, peace IS possible.

And here is a logical fallacy for you.

How do the Reapers KNOW that synthetics WILL wipe out all organic life? Obviously, it has NEVER HAPPENED before, otherwise the galactic races wouldn't be there. Therefore, there is no HISTORICAL PROOF that this will happen.

The Starkid is just blowing smoke.

I'd like a rebuttal to this, anyone?

I personally agree with it so no rebuttal here. I am also waiting for the OP to rebuttal mine from page 4.

I'd like an answer to that too! 

Unless the Catalyst and the Reapers are the original synthetic life.  They only worry about races that evolve to the point of becoming threats so that is why they don't kill everything.  Maybe it has happened before in other galaxies in the universe.  IDK I am just speculating.  But I have wondered if the Catalyst/Reapers are supposed to be the original synthetics.

[Marixus99.9]

This all rooted in fear ..

Fear of the unknown future where the possibility of the artifical surpassing and exterminating all life outweighs what happens in the present.

I can't help but feel that the view people will have on this matter depends on whether they're conservative or liberal .. Take the risk and be open minded to see how artifical life will act, or don't take the risk and exterminate them for security.

I can't wrap my mind around what an artifical consecious with no human instincts and emotions will even do .. Why do anything if you don't have a desire to give reason as to why you do it .. What will be the desires/wants of artifical intelligence. Will it be shaped after ours or will it somehow create reasons to act out of nothing?