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Destroy ending, Was anybody paying attention?


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#176
The Night Mammoth

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Dendio1 wrote...

For the record Javik agrees with star kid on this matter, even though he is star kids mortal enemy


He holds a pretty different view. 

Javik, from past experiences, has determined all Synthetics to be different from him and untrustworthy. He's biased, essentially. And of course, the two examples he provides don't necessarily agree with the Catalyst. 

One is the Zha'til, who attacked when the Reapers interfered. Clever, isn't it?

The second is from what I can tell, the Metacon War. The nature of the synthetics, their origins, or motivations are completely unknown. Then, Javik tells you his people were winning until the Reapers became involved. Clever, isn't it? Twice now the Reapers have failed to uphold their proposed purpose, and actually instigated the opposite. 

The Catalyst determines synthetics to be a threat to organic evidence based likely on computerized statistical reasoning, logic. It does not dislike synthetic life outwardly, just sees them as a threat to organics. 

Still, it's reasons for developing a cycle are obviously flawed without some sort of empirical evidence to support it. 
We know, from what it tells us, that it believes synthetics will always try to destroy all organic life.

Strange then, that this obviously hasn't happened to any degree, or even come close. 

#177
Darth Asriel

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OP- I'll refute your idiocy with 2 things:

1)the mission was to destroy the Reapers. Shep and Anderson berated TIM for considering control. It's a gamble. And if Shep is wrong the entire galaxy will pay the price.

2)as for synthesis. I will quote a great man: All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming, compensating for limitation. Can’t carry a load, so invent wheel. Can’t catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates. Works other way, too. Advancement before culture is ready. Disastrous.
Mordin said that. He also said when Shepard asked if the Collector's could be saved, "No! No glands replaced by tech. No digestive system replaced by tech. No soul, replaced by tech." that's the problem with synthesis. It's what the Reapers were thing to do to us. And this would be it's in result.

#178
Fixers0

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First anwser this question:

Who's to say the Starchild is even right?

#179
Cadeym

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Javik doesn't trust synthetic beings because he was born at a time when they were at war with them. Prior to the Reapers arrival in his cycle the Protheans were winning.

Prior to Reaper intervention the Geth didn't care about organics, they just wanted to be left alone. The heretics followed Sovereign and only attacked organics because they were told to do so by their "god".

EDI explained that it was incredibly confusing to be under fire when she got self awareness back on Luna.

The Geth only sided with the Reapers out of desperation because the Quarians were bombarding this new "hive mind" structure and effectively decreasing the intelligence of the Geth.

Modifié par Mouseraider, 24 avril 2012 - 06:08 .


#180
b2smooth

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Marixus99.9 wrote...

This all rooted in fear ..

Fear of the unknown future where the possibility of the artifical surpassing and exterminating all life outweighs what happens in the present.

I can't help but feel that the view people will have on this matter depends on whether they're conservative or liberal .. Take the risk and be open minded to see how artifical life will act, or don't take the risk and exterminate them for security.

I can't wrap my mind around what an artifical consecious with no human instincts and emotions will even do .. Why do anything if you don't have a desire to give reason as to why you do it .. What will be the desires/wants of artifical intelligence. Will it be shaped after ours or will it somehow create reasons to act out of nothing?


"Why do anything" nailed it.  The Geth can just exist within their network and are content with that.  They don't even need to have any physical goals, other than to exist.

#181
ArchDuck

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b2smooth wrote...
Unless the Catalyst and the Reapers are the original synthetic life.  They only worry about races that evolve to the point of becoming threats so that is why they don't kill everything.  Maybe it has happened before in other galaxies in the universe.  IDK I am just speculating.  But I have wondered if the Catalyst/Reapers are supposed to be the original synthetics.


That would be a twist. They know that synthetics will destroy life because they barely stopped themselves from doing so. :P

#182
sH0tgUn jUliA

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The Reapers KNOW because they do it every 50,000 yrs. They were the first ones to do it, and just before they finished the job, some organic of the first civilization to have created these monsters did some creative quick reprogramming of the AI on the Citadel and gave us "The Cycle". And the programmer even had the foresight to have them clean up after themselves. Otherwise there wouldn't be a cycle and the galaxy would have just been Reapers.

Just some arm waving speculation.

But seriously, in my playthrough the geth are no longer a problem -- they're gone. So with the Destroy ending. We've got a bunch of dead reapers, massive destruction, no mass relays, massive pollution, and who knows if the earth is going to be inhabitable with all the pollution? We'll follow this reaper war with a period of "whew it's over", then another war between factions, just before civilization enters its dark age.

One cannot predict when a technological singularity will occur, or even if it will occur. Civilization in all likelihood will destroy itself before it reaches that point.

#183
RShara

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b2smooth wrote...

RShara wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

RShara wrote...

RShara wrote...
The series is about organics vs organics, and everybody vs the Reapers.
As has been previously stated, Javik's war was due to HYBRIDS, NOT synthetics. And they were winning until the REAPERS took over the hybrids.
Tali and Legion become friends. Therefore, peace IS possible.

And here is a logical fallacy for you.

How do the Reapers KNOW that synthetics WILL wipe out all organic life? Obviously, it has NEVER HAPPENED before, otherwise the galactic races wouldn't be there. Therefore, there is no HISTORICAL PROOF that this will happen.

The Starkid is just blowing smoke.


I'd like a rebuttal to this, anyone?


I personally agree with it so no rebuttal here. I am also waiting for the OP to rebuttal mine from page 4.:D


I'd like an answer to that too! :lol:


Unless the Catalyst and the Reapers are the original synthetic life.  They only worry about races that evolve to the point of becoming threats so that is why they don't kill everything.  Maybe it has happened before in other galaxies in the universe.  IDK I am just speculating.  But I have wondered if the Catalyst/Reapers are supposed to be the original synthetics.


If they're the original synthetic life, then why aren't they killing organics as Starkid insists that they must? :D

Speculating is fun, isn't it? :innocent:

#184
Marixus99.9

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b2smooth wrote...

Marixus99.9 wrote...

This all rooted in fear ..

Fear of the unknown future where the possibility of the artifical surpassing and exterminating all life outweighs what happens in the present.

I can't help but feel that the view people will have on this matter depends on whether they're conservative or liberal .. Take the risk and be open minded to see how artifical life will act, or don't take the risk and exterminate them for security.

I can't wrap my mind around what an artifical consecious with no human instincts and emotions will even do .. Why do anything if you don't have a desire to give reason as to why you do it .. What will be the desires/wants of artifical intelligence. Will it be shaped after ours or will it somehow create reasons to act out of nothing?


"Why do anything" nailed it.  The Geth can just exist within their network and are content with that.  They don't even need to have any physical goals, other than to exist.


The geth are one example of artifical life .. but I believe the fear people are imagining is over the worst case scenario of dealing with an artifical life that has organic life's goals. In that case they aren't different then "hybrid" examples in fiction like the Borg.

#185
Nobrandminda

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The Angry One wrote...

Pasicrates wrote...

I'm not sure if anyone has answered this yet, but does Operation Overlord count as a synthetic lifeform trying to kill everything? I guess Overlord, being what it was, is kind of ambiguous on the subject. 


Overlord is more like a hybrid going on a rampage.

Hybrids are the solution to everything right?

Even if Project Overlord was a hybrid, it's still the best example that I can think of, and it's not a very good one.  For one thing, much like the Luna Base example, it was just a blind panic, albiet one that had could cause damage beyond one military base.

The more serious problem with this example is that the threat of a technolgical collapse doesn't actually affect the Project Overlord story at all.  It's just a McGuffin.  It's a plot point that was thrown in to add tension to the scene.  Furthermore, the only reason why the plot needed that McGuffin is because Project Overlord had absolutely no connection to the main plot of the game.  It couldn't ride the coat tails of the previously established drama of the storyline, so they needed to come up with a completely new motivation to give the story some sense of tension.

#186
LelianaHawke

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When my Shepard picked destroy she was thinking about the revenge for the past, not trying to predict the future. Whatever happens in the future will happen. You can't determine its course for another 50,000 years.

That's why the synthesis and control endings were the wrong way to go. It's said in the actual game that you never know what the right choice is sometimes, and must go with your instinct. In this case, we have solid information on which to choose destroy - that the reapers need to go away for what they did, and only theories on which to choose synthesis or control.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 24 avril 2012 - 06:19 .


#187
Madecologist

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Steelgrave wrote...

 If you choose the "destroy" ending synthetic life like the Geth will rise up again in the future & destroy all organic life. The Reaprs were created to prevent that from happening. If you choose "destroy" you're not just destroying the Reapers, you're destroying all organic life in the future.  You're killing your grandchildren & great grandchildren. Erasing their future.  The Catalyst even tells you this right out.  It's amazing how many players just don't get it.

If you choose "control" Shepard can bring the Reapers in to keep the synthetics under "control'. When they rise up agsint their creators Shepard can stop them.

If you choose "synthesis" there won't be any conflict between organics & synthetics anymore. The Reapers & the whole Mass Effect series is about the conflict between organcs & synthetics. If you combine the 2 you remove the conflict. No need for the Reapers or the cycle anymore. You achieve universal peace. 

Really? Universal Peace?

Because Rachni and the Krogans were Synthetics when they each in turn threatened the galactic community?

The First Contact War was because of synthetics too?

My points is Organics have fought each other all the time, and I am pretty sure if you had more than one synthetic race in time they might start fighting each other too.

Synthesis, homogenise all life. So you won't have synthetic versus organic wars, but I am sure we will have hybrids fighting hybrids. Assuming you can still create new life forms from other materials (even if they themselves are hybrids), you will still have created versus creator... which can still end up fighting each other.

Control, what you descrip is opression. Clean and simple. Shepard-Reaper will prevent future synthetic threats... hmmm.. I wonder how he will do this. Definately not with flowers. All AI are forced to accept the new Shepard-Reaper code upgrades or be destroyed. Peachy... how long before this Shepard-Reaper starts excercising control over the Organics... oh wait... wasn't that what the Reapers were doing... oh my!

Destroy, you assume that the catalyst is right. You assume that technological singularity is true. Obviously the Catalyst believes this, if it didn't it wouldn't have created the Reapers. It is a solution to a problem it 'believes' exist. If that belief is wrong... then the Reapers are not needed.

Sure it runs on a lot of ifs, but if it is true, then it will be our own bloody fault. I personally believe the Beings of Lights are wrong, because they believe it to be true doesn't make it automatically true. Being older, more ancient, or what no means nothing. By that logic I guess the Romans were right about everything too then.

Modifié par Madecologist, 24 avril 2012 - 06:29 .


#188
Marixus99.9

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Madecologist wrote...

Because Rachni and the Krogans were Synthetics when they each in turn threatened the galactic community?

The First Contact War was because of synthetics too?

My points is Organics have fought each other all the time, and I am pretty sure if you had more than one synthetic race in time they might start fighting each other too.


That is entirely based on the assumption that an artificial mind will think similar to the way we do .. only faster/better of course. We have no examples of "intelligent life" in reality other then ourselves and our imagination can only stretch so far.

Either there are pre-programmed reasons or the artifical life will have some form of desire in certain things like we have emotions. There must be reasons for the artificial to act in the first place.

Modifié par Marixus99.9, 24 avril 2012 - 06:31 .


#189
b2smooth

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RShara wrote...

b2smooth wrote...

RShara wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

RShara wrote...

RShara wrote...
The series is about organics vs organics, and everybody vs the Reapers.
As has been previously stated, Javik's war was due to HYBRIDS, NOT synthetics. And they were winning until the REAPERS took over the hybrids.
Tali and Legion become friends. Therefore, peace IS possible.

And here is a logical fallacy for you.

How do the Reapers KNOW that synthetics WILL wipe out all organic life? Obviously, it has NEVER HAPPENED before, otherwise the galactic races wouldn't be there. Therefore, there is no HISTORICAL PROOF that this will happen.

The Starkid is just blowing smoke.


I'd like a rebuttal to this, anyone?


I personally agree with it so no rebuttal here. I am also waiting for the OP to rebuttal mine from page 4.:D


I'd like an answer to that too! :lol:


Unless the Catalyst and the Reapers are the original synthetic life.  They only worry about races that evolve to the point of becoming threats so that is why they don't kill everything.  Maybe it has happened before in other galaxies in the universe.  IDK I am just speculating.  But I have wondered if the Catalyst/Reapers are supposed to be the original synthetics.


If they're the original synthetic life, then why aren't they killing organics as Starkid insists that they must? :D

Speculating is fun, isn't it? :innocent:


But they are, are they not?  Perhaps they allow the cycle to take place because harvesting organics is their purpose in life.  It is also part of their reproductive process.  To destroy all organics would mean the Reapers could no longer create new life.  At least not in the same form.

Modifié par b2smooth, 24 avril 2012 - 06:37 .


#190
Siansonea

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OMG, did I not completely buy into Catalyst's version of events? Because of my own personal experience with organics and synthetics? Shame on me for thinking for myself.

#191
Vox Draco

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LelianaHawke wrote...

When my Shepard picked destroy she was thinking about the revenge for the past, not trying to predict the future. Whatever happens in the future will happen. You can't determine its course for another 50,000 years.

That's why the synthesis and control endings were the wrong way to go. It's said in the actual game that you never know what the right choice is sometimes, and must go with your instinct. In this case, we have solid information on which to choose destroy - that the reapers need to go away for what they did, and only theories on which to choose synthesis or control.


true. The games sadly forces us to believe the Kid without having the option to question or deny it. This I combine  with Sheps and my urge to destroy the reapers, which finally  leaves red as the only option. True, the Geth might not make it, and maybe the mass relays won't be rebuild, and struggle for ressources and all that might, MIGHT occur, but the greatest benefit?

The galaxy is finally free to go their own way, for good, or for worse, without Reaper-watchdogs guiding their progress and harvesting them in the end. Or maipulating everyone's DNA and this bullshiat. No more interruption, no more interfering from those Borg-Calamari. It's over for them, and a new beginning for everyone else...

Those are the reasons my Sheps will always choose this ending (Also, on a side note, all of my Sheps have this strange thing in common: They are colorblind, have an aversion to wise-cracking kids behaving like adults and a tendancy to walk towards the right side when under stress or wounded badly...so even if I wanted to choose another ending, my Sheps will always destroy the reapers because of that...its a strange galaxy, isn't it?)

#192
Marixus99.9

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Siansonea II wrote...

OMG, did I not completely buy into Catalyst's version of events? Because of my own personal experience with organics and synthetics? Shame on me for thinking for myself.


Wait what? What experience with synthetics? So far we only have have toasters and PCs or did you find an actual AI today?

#193
Computron2000

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One of the funny things that pointed out how the reaper kid was wrong was the entire Heretic Geth arc in ME2.

Geth vs Geth = synthetics vs synthetics
Turian vs Krogan = organics vs organic
Quarians vs Geth = organics vs synthetics

So basically conflict in inevitable regardless of whether its synthetics or organics. So why pin point on just one area, organic vs synthetic?

Then we look at how Reaper boy's solution is really idiotic in the first place. Now if you're going to wipe out conflict, whats the best way? Well i don't see husks rebelling, so why not change everything to husks, then no more conflict!

Then the choice of Synthesis as Reaper boy's "best" method is even more idiotic. Whats to stop these synthesized creatures from
i) Creating more geth like creatures and end up like the quarians
ii) Fighting among themselves which would still lead to (semi) organic species destruction

And one last point. Reaper tech is not the be all and end all of technological innovation. So what makes Reaper boy think that the results of synthesis will the the "best" or the "end of evolution" (har har)? What if Q from star trek or the Vorlons from Babylon 5 decided to tell the galactic races, "here's how to turn each person into someone with the power of a million suns after which you can fly without starships, need never eat/drink/breathe and still have emotions but sorry it doesn't work with low quality half synthetic stuff like you guys."

Modifié par Computron2000, 24 avril 2012 - 06:43 .


#194
Nobrandminda

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Marixus99.9 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

OMG, did I not completely buy into Catalyst's version of events? Because of my own personal experience with organics and synthetics? Shame on me for thinking for myself.


Wait what? What experience with synthetics? So far we only have have toasters and PCs or did you find an actual AI today?

He means Shepard's experiences with organics and synthetics obviously.

You know, the synthetic crew member who's dating my pilot.  And the peaceful resolution to a war 300 years in the making. 

#195
Bill Casey

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Steelgrave wrote...

 If you choose the "destroy" ending synthetic life like the Geth will rise up again in the future & destroy all organic life. The Reaprs were created to prevent that from happening. If you choose "destroy" you're not just destroying the Reapers, you're destroying all organic life in the future.  You're killing your grandchildren & great grandchildren. Erasing their future.  The Catalyst even tells you this right out.  It's amazing how many players just don't get it.


I believe the Reapers are wrong...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 24 avril 2012 - 06:41 .


#196
Marixus99.9

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Nobrandminda wrote...

Marixus99.9 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

OMG, did I not completely buy into Catalyst's version of events? Because of my own personal experience with organics and synthetics? Shame on me for thinking for myself.


Wait what? What experience with synthetics? So far we only have have toasters and PCs or did you find an actual AI today?

He means Shepard's experiences with organics and synthetics obviously.

You know, the synthetic crew member who's dating my pilot.  And the peaceful resolution to a war 300 years in the making. 


Yeah I know, it was bad sarcasm. Stories that are written by humans btw.

#197
ArchDuck

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Marixus99.9 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

OMG, did I not completely buy into Catalyst's version of events? Because of my own personal experience with organics and synthetics? Shame on me for thinking for myself.


Wait what? What experience with synthetics? So far we only have have toasters and PCs or did you find an actual AI today?


Really? Really you are going to start that BS? <_<

No AI currently? Give it 20 or so years.

#198
Marixus99.9

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ArchDuck wrote...

Marixus99.9 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

OMG, did I not completely buy into Catalyst's version of events? Because of my own personal experience with organics and synthetics? Shame on me for thinking for myself.


Wait what? What experience with synthetics? So far we only have have toasters and PCs or did you find an actual AI today?


Really? Really you are going to start that BS? <_<

No AI currently? Give it 20 or so years.


I didn't say we wont get an AI, just we don't have an AI that is truly self aware yet.

#199
Jayleia

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Steelgrave wrote...

No! It's not the same!  They harvest all *ADVANCED CIVILIZATIONS*, they don't wipe out all life.


Ya know?  If the fans are going to say that everything is lying in the game there is no way Bioware can possibly make an ending.  No matter what they come up with the fans will say it's all a lie. They really can't go anywhere with this story because the fans will simply say " don't trust him, he's lying, that's not really how it happened.".  Javik is full of crap! Vigil is full of crap! The Catalyst & TIM are full of crap!  How is Bioware supposed to make an ending that the fans will believe?  So far the fans have ignored everything that has been said in all 3 games.


Oh, good, they don't wipe out ALL life, however, if you were a Prothean, would it really matter if they left a planet occupied by nothing more advanced than moss?

No.  You'd be dead, turned into chunky salsa and fed into a Reaper hull.

And no, we're not going to say everyone is lying.  Only people who A) control a manipulative, deceptive organization, B) have given us no reason to trust them, C) their very existence is proof that their "inevitable cycle" is false.

If Vega comes in and says "Reapers are attacking", its a pretty safe bet that...you got Harvesters inbound, if Anderson says Udina's a weasel, you can take it to the bank.

I mean, if Megatron were to go up to Optimus Prime and say "Hey, my new world-conquering machine needs you to die to finish it, but if you do, we'll become nice forever."...would you even pause to think "WTF?!", or would you just punch Megatron for thinking you're that stupid?

#200
FoxShadowblade

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So we should choose to disintegrate ourselves and let the Reapers live, even though we have them by the balls?

**** you, I'm choosing the least absurd and insulting ending and taking the Reapers with me.