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[Nobrandminda]

Marixus99.9 wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

Because Rachni and the Krogans were Synthetics when they each in turn threatened the galactic community?

The First Contact War was because of synthetics too?

My points is Organics have fought each other all the time, and I am pretty sure if you had more than one synthetic race in time they might start fighting each other too.

That is entirely based on the assumption that an artificial mind will think similar to the way we do .. only faster/better of course. We have no examples of "intelligent life" in reality other then ourselves and our imagination can only stretch so far.

Either there are pre-programmed reasons or the artifical life will have some form of desire in certain things like we have emotions. There must be reasons for the artificial to act in the first place.

The Heretics and the True Geth conflicted with eachother.  By the time we intervened in their fight, they were still at the cyber warfare stage.  The Heretics were preparing to rewrite the True Geth until we beat them to it (or destroyed them outright).  I'd call that a fight, even if it was (mostly) regulated to the digital realm and rather than the physical one.

[b2smooth]

Jayleia wrote...

I mean, if Megatron were to go up to Optimus Prime and say "Hey, my new world-conquering machine needs you to die to finish it, but if you do, we'll become nice forever."...would you even pause to think "WTF?!", or would you just punch Megatron for thinking you're that stupid?

That is possibly the best point I have seen made on here.  

LMAO too!

Modifié par b2smooth, 24 avril 2012 - 06:46 .

[Madecologist]

Marixus99.9 wrote...

That is entirely based on the assumption that an artificial mind will think similar to the way we do .. only faster/better of course. We have no examples of "intelligent life" in reality other then ourselves and our imagination can only stretch so far.

Either there are pre-programmed reasons or the artifical life will have some form of desire in certain things like we have emotions.

Geth had a 'civil war', heck heretics had inflitrator units spying on true Geths... hmmm sounds familiar. Legion had no issues killing heretics while with you. EDI regects the Reapers and will gladly fight them to the death.

I am not seeing a lot of thinking so completely differently. Synthetics seem to have claims of soveriegnty and a desire to defend themsevles and attack those that threaten them. They aslo seem to possess the ability to threaten others, not just threaten organics, but each other (case of the heretics versus true Geth).

You can't say it is all in self defense only either. True geths left the heretics alone, it was the heretics that wanted to use a virus first to rewrite the true geths. A hostile action from a synthetic life to another that was not threatening them (add in they were spying on them too).

You say what I say is an assumption, but guess what, saying that none organics  will not want to fight each other is an assumption too. One that seems to actually have proof against within the setting, and we are argueing the consequences of those choices in the same setting too. The ending does not exist outside of ME but within ME.

Also, for the synthesis ending you can assume people keep the personality they had. Humans will be humans by psyche, I mean Joker still looked like Joker and he still was in love with EDI. EDI exhibited a living being's desire of physical contact. So I can guess they are not going to think that differently from us.

If the Synthesis ending does change how people think and feel, then the moral implications of it is even worst. Never mind body rape of having your DNA rewritten. It is mind rape now, changing who you are on a the psyche level.

I think... I am going to go throw up now....

Modifié par Madecologist, 24 avril 2012 - 07:07 .

[Aarkaan]

Well I wouldn't any more, the relays are destroy, so ME Universe is f***k, I just hope that other ME game don't be of past events, it will be to mush STWR Prequel

[Yaos]

Didn't read the 15 pages, but :

Steelgrave wrote...

 If you choose the "destroy" ending synthetic life like the Geth will rise up again in the future & destroy all organic life. The Reaprs were created to prevent that from happening. If you choose "destroy" you're not just destroying the Reapers, you're destroying all organic life in the future.  You're killing your grandchildren & great grandchildren. Erasing their future.  The Catalyst even tells you this right out.  It's amazing how many players just don't get it.

If you choose "control" Shepard can bring the Reapers in to keep the synthetics under "control'. When they rise up agsint their creators Shepard can stop them.

If you choose "synthesis" there won't be any conflict between organics & synthetics anymore. The Reapers & the whole Mass Effect series is about the conflict between organcs & synthetics. If you combine the 2 you remove the conflict. No need for the Reapers or the cycle anymore. You achieve universal peace. 

No. You're putting faith in life that this wont happend. When you do it, you choose to not believe the reaper child, which is valid to me. Who the **** does he thinks he is.

[Tony208]

It is naive to think any of the 3 choices will solve anything.

[Marixus99.9]

Madecologist wrote...

Marixus99.9 wrote...

That is entirely based on the assumption that an artificial mind will think similar to the way we do .. only faster/better of course. We have no examples of "intelligent life" in reality other then ourselves and our imagination can only stretch so far.

Either there are pre-programmed reasons or the artifical life will have some form of desire in certain things like we have emotions.

Geth had a 'civil war', heck heretics had inflitrator units spying on true Geths... hmmm sounds familiar. Legion had no issues killing heretics while with you. EDI regects the Reapers and will gladly fight them to the death.

I am not seeing a lot of thinking so completely differently. Synthetics seem to have claims of soveriegnty and a desire to defend themsevles and attack those that threaten them. They aslo seem to possess the ability to threaten others, not just threaten organics, but each other (case of the heretics versus true Geth).

You can't say it is all in self defense only either. True geths left the heretics alone, it was the heretics that wanted to use a virus first to rewrite the true geths. A hostile action from a synthetic life to another that was not threatening them (add in they were spying on them too).

You say what I say is an assumption, but guess what, saying that none organics will not want to fight each other is an assumption too. One that seems to actually have proof against within the setting, and we are argueing the consequences of those choices in the same setting too. The ending does not exist outside of ME but within ME.

Also, for the synthesis ending you can assume people keep the personality they had. Humans will be humans by psyche, I mean Joker still looked like Joker and he still was in love with EDI. EDI exhibited a living being's desire of physical contact. So I can guess they are not going to think that differently from us.

If the Synthesis ending does change how people think and feel, then the moral implications of it is even worst. Never mind body rape of having your DNA rewritten. It is mind rape now, changing who you are on a the psyche level.

I think... I am going to go throw up now....

The geth was an example of the artifical valuing self preservation .. which is my point, they had to value it in order to act on it. Which makes me wonder where it came from. Was it something they logically thought out into valuing the ability the keep making their logical thoughts or something?

I'm not saying they wont have values .. I just wonder where they get it from. As for that organic assumption .. um no, its well known organic life already value its self presevation and have wants by instinct.

Modifié par Marixus99.9, 24 avril 2012 - 06:56 .

[N7Adept]

One of the major themes of the series was that all sentient being should have self determination. Thats why I reject star kids logic that synthetics WILL rise, and I destroy the reapers. Because our fate should be our own.

[RShara]

b2smooth wrote...

RShara wrote...

b2smooth wrote...

RShara wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

RShara wrote...

RShara wrote...
The series is about organics vs organics, and everybody vs the Reapers.
As has been previously stated, Javik's war was due to HYBRIDS, NOT synthetics. And they were winning until the REAPERS took over the hybrids.
Tali and Legion become friends. Therefore, peace IS possible.

And here is a logical fallacy for you.

How do the Reapers KNOW that synthetics WILL wipe out all organic life? Obviously, it has NEVER HAPPENED before, otherwise the galactic races wouldn't be there. Therefore, there is no HISTORICAL PROOF that this will happen.

The Starkid is just blowing smoke.

I'd like a rebuttal to this, anyone?

I personally agree with it so no rebuttal here. I am also waiting for the OP to rebuttal mine from page 4.

I'd like an answer to that too! 

Unless the Catalyst and the Reapers are the original synthetic life.  They only worry about races that evolve to the point of becoming threats so that is why they don't kill everything.  Maybe it has happened before in other galaxies in the universe.  IDK I am just speculating.  But I have wondered if the Catalyst/Reapers are supposed to be the original synthetics.

If they're the original synthetic life, then why aren't they killing organics as Starkid insists that they must? 

Speculating is fun, isn't it? :innocent:

But they are, are they not?  Perhaps they allow the cycle to take place because harvesting organics is their purpose in life.  It is also part of their reproductive process.  To destroy all organics would mean the Reapers could no longer create new life.  At least not in the same form.

But they're not destroying ALL organic life, as the Catalyst insists that they must.  In fact, their sole purpose is to prevent that.  So still no makey sense

Modifié par RShara, 24 avril 2012 - 06:55 .

[Oldbones2]

Steelgrave wrote...

 If you choose the "destroy" ending synthetic life like the Geth will rise up again in the future & destroy all organic life. The Reaprs were created to prevent that from happening. If you choose "destroy" you're not just destroying the Reapers, you're destroying all organic life in the future.  You're killing your grandchildren & great grandchildren. Erasing their future.  The Catalyst even tells you this right out.  It's amazing how many players just don't get it.

If you choose "control" Shepard can bring the Reapers in to keep the synthetics under "control'. When they rise up agsint their creators Shepard can stop them.

If you choose "synthesis" there won't be any conflict between organics & synthetics anymore. The Reapers & the whole Mass Effect series is about the conflict between organcs & synthetics. If you combine the 2 you remove the conflict. No need for the Reapers or the cycle anymore. You achieve universal peace. 

We're not stupid OP, and most of us understand the english language.  So that's not really the problem.

I don't believe that it is inevitable that synthetic life will always destroy organic life.

In fact most of the evidence I have experienced in game up to the ending tells me the opposite.


As for your reason for control, well, that's why I picked control.  However there is an argument to be made, that if you believe and trust in the Catalyst (as you seem to) then eventually Shepard will come to believe in the same doctrine and simply reinstate the cycle.

Synthesis is .....

It just dumb OP.  Science doesn't work in the way that ending is described.  And it's pretty damn reprehensable.

Many (and I think in truth MOST) ME fans feel that the whole Mass Effect series IS NOT about organics vs. synthetics and some (including myself) feel that by combining all life organic and synthetic against their will, simply gives the Reapers a free victory.

[darthoptimus003]

NO THE POINT OF MASS EFFECT IS TO KEEP THE REAPERS FROM KILLING PEOPLE NOT A HALF ASSED EXCUESS IN THE FINAL MIN OF THE GAME
WE START BY TRYING TO STOP THE GENOCIDE OF THE ENTIRE GALAXY
WE END WE THREE CHOICES THAT EFFECTVLY KILLS EVERYONE THE MIN THE RELAYS EXPLODE THE PREVENTION OF GALACTIC GENOCIDE IS WHAT ITS ABOUT
and for everyone else
"i created synthetics to destroy organics to keep organics from being detroyed by synthetics"

[Madecologist]

Tony208 wrote...

It is naive to think any of the 3 choices will solve anything.

Heh... most true. Just like it is naive to believe the Starchild is right or believing it doesn't have a good reason to believe what it does. Pretty sure something happen in its history that convinced it so much it decided to create the Reapers, hoping that it was not on a whim....

I rather like to believe it may be wrong, and reject its logic. However this said... none of the ending do solve anything. Destroy sets things at square 1, Control is just another type of Reaper solution, while Synthesis seems like what the Starchild wants the most if he can get it... but again it wasn't like its first plan was that great either.

It boils down to which solution you want to place your chips on. I prefer to let the Galaxy decide on its own... in the see of random chaos.

It really comes down to not picking the best option but picking the one you think is the least worst. Probably why so many hate the choices.

[Jayleia]

Steelgrave wrote...

This person is saying that there is no way to end the trilogy because the fans won't believe anything!  And they'll argue with everything!  So WTF is Bioware supposed to do??? 

Even if Shepard destroys the Reapers & everybody lives happily ever, you think the fans will be satisfied? There has to be a point to the Reapers, a reason why they were created in the first place, a reason why we invested hundreds of hours playing. If Shepard simply destroys them it will create a million questions.  Bioware tried to answer some of those questions but the fans won't accept any of them.

The Protheans don't know anything & the fans won't believe anything the "BAD GUYS" say.  Where does that leave us? What is Bioware suposed to do?

Actually, I'd love for us not to know why they were created...because to know them is to reduce them.  In ME1, with Sovereign, that was an epic conversation, because they were so mysterious, and they claimed such endless power.

Now, there is a way out, if you don't believe what the bad guys say.  Give them a different path to the knowledge, something that's not spoon-fed to you by the enemy.

And we don't accept the answers because we can prove the starchild to be a liar.  We can prove that the Reapers manipulate societies to make synthetics kill organics.  We can even make a case that Shepard survives the unsurvivable (if she were even present at the unsurvivable events).

And, if synthetics ALWAYS kill ALL organics...the first cycle, even BEFORE the first Reaper would have been the only cycle.  Because the synthetics would have taken over everything ALREADY.

[Madecologist]

Marixus99.9 wrote...

I'm not saying they wont have values .. I just wonder where they get it from. As for that organic assumption .. um no, its well known organic life already value its self presevation and have wants by instinct.

Where the heck did that come from? I never said that nor said anyone ever said that.

I was refering to your assumption that Synthetic life might not be predisposed to warfare. An assumption I believe you made because you countered the comment about warfare will still happen in the synthesis ending. If you didn't make that reference, then I was countering a nul hypothsis only.

I never denied organics desire of self perservation and heck I am relying on it to indicate that you may still have war and alot of it in the synthsis ending (since the new hybrids are from us).

Edit - You must have missed the word none in front of organic. Meaning synthetics and hybrids. As in all none-organics.

Modifié par Madecologist, 24 avril 2012 - 07:09 .

[RShara]

Jayleia wrote...

Steelgrave wrote...

This person is saying that there is no way to end the trilogy because the fans won't believe anything!  And they'll argue with everything!  So WTF is Bioware supposed to do??? 

Even if Shepard destroys the Reapers & everybody lives happily ever, you think the fans will be satisfied? There has to be a point to the Reapers, a reason why they were created in the first place, a reason why we invested hundreds of hours playing. If Shepard simply destroys them it will create a million questions.  Bioware tried to answer some of those questions but the fans won't accept any of them.

The Protheans don't know anything & the fans won't believe anything the "BAD GUYS" say.  Where does that leave us? What is Bioware suposed to do?

Actually, I'd love for us not to know why they were created...because to know them is to reduce them.  In ME1, with Sovereign, that was an epic conversation, because they were so mysterious, and they claimed such endless power.

Now, there is a way out, if you don't believe what the bad guys say.  Give them a different path to the knowledge, something that's not spoon-fed to you by the enemy.

And we don't accept the answers because we can prove the starchild to be a liar.  We can prove that the Reapers manipulate societies to make synthetics kill organics.  We can even make a case that Shepard survives the unsurvivable (if she were even present at the unsurvivable events).

And, if synthetics ALWAYS kill ALL organics...the first cycle, even BEFORE the first Reaper would have been the only cycle.  Because the synthetics would have taken over everything ALREADY.

That's what I keep trying to say   If it were "inevitable" then it would have happened before/when the Reapers' cycle occurred and none of the last 3 games ever happened

[Navasha]

Sorry, but Destroy is the only moral option on the table given the 3 options. If or when synthetics rise up, then that will have to be a whole new problem for us to solve at that time.

Controlling the reapers just trades one tyrant for another.... All still gets wiped out, the cycles continue as if everything Shepard tried to do was null and void.

Synthesis... don't even get me started on the horror of condemning and violating all life in the universe to a fate worse than death.

Modifié par Navasha, 24 avril 2012 - 07:06 .

[Marixus99.9]

Madecologist wrote...

Marixus99.9 wrote...

I'm not saying they wont have values .. I just wonder where they get it from. As for that organic assumption .. um no, its well known organic life already value its self presevation and have wants by instinct.

Where the heck did that come from? I never said that nor said anyone ever said that.

I was refering to your assumption that Synthetic life might not be predisposed to warfare. An assumption I believe you made because you countered the comment about warfare will still happen in the synthesis ending. If you didn't make that reference, then I was countering a nul assumption only.

I never denied organics desire of self perservation and heck I am relying on it to indicate that you may still have war and alot of it in the synthsis ending.

Edit - You must have missed the word none in front of organic. Meaning synthetics and hybrids. As in all none-organics.

I did miss that none part so I didn't realize you were talking about hybrids in that sentence .. I was very confused for a while there .. or maybe I still am .. argh. If you're talking about hybrids then yeah I can see them making wars in the future ..

Edit: I should get home to my pc .. and slow down my post frequency ..

Modifié par Marixus99.9, 24 avril 2012 - 07:10 .

[Madecologist]

Marixus99.9 wrote...

I did miss that none part so I didn't realize you were talking about hybrids in that sentence .. I was very confused for a while there .. or maybe I still am .. argh. If you're talking about hybrids then yeah I can see them making wars in the future ..

It's all good, this happens all the time in forums communication. But yeah, we are on the same page now... so all is good.

My initial point in the first post was the hybrids are as prone to war as ever and synthetic born hybrids (even true synthetics) may or may not be prone, but there is no assurence that they won't. Also you can still have the cycle of created versus creator in the synthesis ending as well unless sexual reproduction is completely gone and all life must now 'create' its offspring. Which would make Synthesis even creepier.

Modifié par Madecologist, 24 avril 2012 - 07:15 .

[ArchDuck]

Navasha wrote...

Sorry, but Destroy is the only moral option on the table given the 3 options. If or when synthetics rise up, then that will have to be a whole new problem for us to solve at that time.

Controlling the reapers just trades one tyrant for another.... All still gets wiped out, the cycles continue as if everything Shepard tried to do was null and void.

Synthesis... don't even get me started on the horror of condemning and violating all life in the universe to a fate worse than death.

Though this gets into the realm of speculation, an argument that Control is the best option can be made.

If control is real (some sort of uploaded Shepard is in control) then what is so wrong with ordering the Reapers to fly into a blackhole? Its not really different from using destroy but no risk of killing other synthetics and the relays are disabled rather then destroyed (if Mike Gamble can be trusted).

Modifié par ArchDuck, 24 avril 2012 - 07:17 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Navasha wrote...

Sorry, but Destroy is the only moral option on the table given the 3 options. If or when synthetics rise up, then that will have to be a whole new problem for us to solve at that time.

Fight the synthetics and beat them. The Protheans were doing it, apparently, and we'd have our own synthetics to help, namely the Geth. Problem solved.

Destroy is no more moral than synthesis or control. After pretty much proving that 'synthetics are people too' you have to destroy them all, genocide an entire species in a lot of cases and murder a major character to spare the rest.

Controlling the reapers just trades one tyrant for another.... All still gets wiped out, the cycles continue as if everything Shepard tried to do was null and void.

Synthesis... don't even get me started on the horror of condemning and violating all life in the universe to a fate worse than death.

Assuming the Catalyst is correct, which it most likely isn't. 

I do have another option though. 

Sit back and watch the fleet kick the **** out of the Reapers in orbit. No one is murdered by Shepard, no genocide or other such attrocities are committed, and the Mass Relays are saved. 

[Bill Casey]

I don't accept that I can Control the Reapers...
No matter how much Bioware shoves it down my throat, I will never accept that premise...
I reject it wholeheartedly...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 24 avril 2012 - 07:17 .

[-Area51-Silent]

ArchDuck wrote...

Navasha wrote...

Sorry, but Destroy is the only moral option on the table given the 3 options. If or when synthetics rise up, then that will have to be a whole new problem for us to solve at that time.

Controlling the reapers just trades one tyrant for another.... All still gets wiped out, the cycles continue as if everything Shepard tried to do was null and void.

Synthesis... don't even get me started on the horror of condemning and violating all life in the universe to a fate worse than death.

Though this gets into the realm of speculation, an arguement that Control is the best option can be made.

If control is real (some sort of uploaded Shepard is in control) then what is so wrong with ordering the Reapers to fly into a blackhole? Its not really different from using destroy but no risk of killing other synthetics and the relays are disabled rather then destroyed (if Mike Gamble can be trusted).

Considering Shepards conversation just prior to the decision (when he tells TIM "we are not ready"), I think control is a wtf moment...seriously! we JUST said that doing that is NOT cool, and it gets to the idea of "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" meaning no one (no matter who) can escape corruption. TIM sees what he is doing as for the best to help humanity, while those who do not have the crazy power or dilusion he has, see it otherwise...so why would Shepard be any different?

Also, we ASSUME he would take control of the reapers, the geth also assumed that the reapers would help them too...Ya, the Geth got taken advantage of, hacked and owned by the reapers superior ability, so why would the reapers be so simple for Shepard? who is to say that they can't simply take on his conciousness, knowledge etc.. and use it against the others?

[jakenou]

It can't be known if Synthesis is even a fail-safe. Evolution, mutation or who knows what could cause synthetic and organic life to "un-synthesize". All options are unknowns. Starkid was speaking from lessons of the past. Shepard argued that the future can't be known, and there wasn't much if any kickback from Starkid about that - which tells me Starkid is exactly what he says he is - a kind of ascendent being from thousands of years of cyclic evolution (who can not see into the future, only the past).

Even if the cycles continue; either by the Reapers coming back again thousands of years later, or by synthetic life being recreated and rebelling, or even by synthesized life going to war... there's more that points to the nature of cycles being finite rather than infinite. The Big Bang. Dying stars. Evolution. Extinction. Shepard's decision makes no known difference in the (very) long run, therefore the decision should be made by how the present is affected, and secondarily by how the near future could be affected, the latter simply being a gamble.

Modifié par jkthunder, 24 avril 2012 - 07:22 .

[Stalker]

Yes, OP. That's exactly BioWare's vision behind it. That's also why you have to unlock Control and Synthesis with EMS, while the "worst" ending is always there.

However, I finished what I came for: Destroy the Reapers to make the galaxy able to forge it's own future.
I reject BioWare's/StarChild's vision.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 24 avril 2012 - 07:24 .

[ArchDuck]

-Area51-Silent wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

Though this gets into the realm of speculation, an arguement that Control is the best option can be made.

If control is real (some sort of uploaded Shepard is in control) then what is so wrong with ordering the Reapers to fly into a blackhole? Its not really different from using destroy but no risk of killing other synthetics and the relays are disabled rather then destroyed (if Mike Gamble can be trusted).

Considering Shepards conversation just prior to the decision (when he tells TIM "we are not ready"), I think control is a wtf moment...seriously! we JUST said that doing that is NOT cool, and it gets to the idea of "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" meaning no one (no matter who) can escape corruption. TIM sees what he is doing as for the best to help humanity, while those who do not have the crazy power or dilusion he has, see it otherwise...so why would Shepard be any different?

Also, we ASSUME he would take control of the reapers, the geth also assumed that the reapers would help them too...Ya, the Geth got taken advantage of, hacked and owned by the reapers superior ability, so why would the reapers be so simple for Shepard? who is to say that they can't simply take on his conciousness, knowledge etc.. and use it against the others?

Oh it should never have been included as a serious option but they did.