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[whykikyouwhy]

esper wrote...

SerTabris wrote...

Disapointment wrote...

I for one would like to see a sexual preference check box in Character Gen.
When my Bro-Hawk visits Fenris to see what BS he's got going on then having a flirt option show up on a whim really messes with my immersion with my character. If Fenris swings that way,cool; having my character be sexually ambiguous with-out making sufficient decisions to reflect that throws me for a loop.

How is that any different from the number of other types of dialogue options that the character you have conceived wouldn't choose?

The flirt option is not a reflection on Fenris' sexuality, but your characthers'. If you don't want to have a bi-sexual characther simply don't pick flirts with the gender you don't want. After all Avelien and VArric have flirts too and they are not interested.

To add to what esper has said, there are also a few points in the game where Hawke can flirt with non-party NPCs. It's simply a dialogue option for the player. How the player wishes to utilize the options presented to him/her is up to that individual.

[dracuella]

esper wrote...

The flirt option is not a reflection on Fenris' sexuality, but your characthers'. If you don't want to have a bi-sexual characther simply don't pick flirts with the gender you don't want. After all Avelien and VArric have flirts too and they are not interested.

I wish there were more flirt options for Varric. His way with words, his cool personality, his worldly ways makes his conversations some of the best. Flirting with him, even if it only innocently, is highly gratifying. Moar. Nao. Kthxbye

Modifié par dracuella, 29 avril 2012 - 04:30 .

[John Epler]

Disapointment wrote...

@ serTabris
I'm not sure what your asking, but I'm talking about getting my dialogue wheel more in-tuned to what my character thinks. So that if i check the "heterosexual" box when i generate the character then that reflects His/Her persona.Then when a flirt option comes up for a same-sex romance it's then turned into a unique refusal or doesn't even show up because of a character guide-line I set.

We aren't going to spend resources on this. Turn him down, and move on with your life. I recommend talking to any number of women that you may be acquainted with insofar as 'what do you do when someone flirts with you and you're not interested' is concerned. It is exactly the same thing.

Not to mention that you already determine your character's sexual orientation, and having someone of the same gender flirt with you doesn't change that. And we're not really interested in creating options or spending zots to further the idea that the very existence of homosexuality (because, aside from a single, easily rejected flirtation, there is no 'romance' here) is something that people should be allowed to hide from.

[hussey 92]

Bioware romance reminds me of that scene in Bad Teacher were Justin Timberlake is dry humping Cameron Diaz

[Lamepro]

The James Bond Romance would be fine by me.

[berelinde]

John Epler wrote...

We aren't going to spend resources on this. Turn him down, and move on with your life. I recommend talking to any number of women that you may be acquainted with insofar as 'what do you do when someone flirts with you and you're not interested' is concerned. It is exactly the same thing.

In general, I really liked the way DA2 handled the flirting. You could voluntarily flirt with literally anybody, and I loved that. It was great being able to hit on or joke around with Varric or Aveline with a PC of either gender. The one "flirt" I don't like is Isabela's, when she invites you to join her at the Hanged Man after defeating Hayder. It's got nothing to do with the gender of the protagonist, or even with Isabela. Hawke gets this big "I'm SO going to hit that" expression after her invitation. My objection to this is that it is telling the PC what s/he is feeling. I'd rather have a choice of how to respond to that, whether with an appreciative leer, a scowl, or disbelief that she would suggest such a thing to a person wearing three pints of O-negative.

[Deviija]

berelinde wrote...
Hawke gets this big "I'm SO going to hit that" expression after her invitation. My objection to this is that it is telling the PC what s/he is feeling. I'd rather have a choice of how to respond to that, whether with an appreciative leer, a scowl, or disbelief that she would suggest such a thing to a person wearing three pints of O-negative.

Yes, this IS a problem.  It is something I've talked about on the forums, particularly on the ME forums as they are the greatest offender of animating the expressions of your character for you, insinuating a particular interest in an NPC without the player getting any choice.  For example, Shiala when she flirts with Shepard in ME2.  Shepard (of both sexes) automatically gets this little interested/leering expression in the cutscene, regardless of whether you are a) in a romantic relationship with someone already or what your sexual orientation may be.  Same with Isabela in the above, and so on.  

I love options (especially when those options include same-sex romance/flirts/etc) and I love being able to roleplay my character how I see fit.  But what I don't like is having my character hard-coded in cutscenes to respond a certain way that I did not choose and had no choice over.  If I'm roleplaying a straight woman or a gay man, the leering/interested face with Shiala or Isabela doesn't work.  It also smacks of 'this game is created with a hetero dude player as default in mind' rather than thinking of how a character and player can be of anything other than.  Especially since these instances only happen with women characters as well.

Now, if a dialogue window popped up in that conversation and gauged interest by what dialogue choices I used, then it'd be fine.  As in, if I flirted with Isabela prior to the invite, then it is obvious my character is interested in Isabela and her leering at the proposal would be appropriate.  If I had not flirted with Isabela prior to, then no leering.  Or have expressions directly linked to dialogue choices rather than happening automatically in cutscenes.  Maybe my PC isn't interested in being more than friends?  Maybe my PC isn't into women?  Maybe my PC is celibate/not interested in sex?  Etc. etc.    

This is a far different problem than the 'I just don't want to see the gay in my game.'  If a character flirts with you, the PC is allowed the freedom to pick a dialogue choice and play out their response with interest or disinterest.  Here, when a character shows interest in your PC, the cutscene dictates your character's sexual interest automatically regardless of your choices, current romance, or sexuality.  There is no way to say 'no thanks' or 'waggle your eyebrows' or 'dude, I'm with someone already, okay?' in these instances, it is default and automatic and without choice/response.    

[BubbleDncr]

John Epler wrote...

Disapointment wrote...

@ serTabris
I'm not sure what your asking, but I'm talking about getting my dialogue wheel more in-tuned to what my character thinks. So that if i check the "heterosexual" box when i generate the character then that reflects His/Her persona.Then when a flirt option comes up for a same-sex romance it's then turned into a unique refusal or doesn't even show up because of a character guide-line I set.

We aren't going to spend resources on this. Turn him down, and move on with your life. I recommend talking to any number of women that you may be acquainted with insofar as 'what do you do when someone flirts with you and you're not interested' is concerned. It is exactly the same thing.

Not to mention that you already determine your character's sexual orientation, and having someone of the same gender flirt with you doesn't change that. And we're not really interested in creating options or spending zots to further the idea that the very existence of homosexuality (because, aside from a single, easily rejected flirtation, there is no 'romance' here) is something that people should be allowed to hide from.

+1 Like

[Maria Caliban]

The problem is that if the PC makes any facial expression then the player can interpret that in a way that's contrary to their perception of the character. Isabela walks up to Hawke and says she has a room at the Hanged Man if Hawke would like some company later. Hawke raises her eyebrows.

There's literally no other change in Hawke's face but the raising of eyebrows. It's an ambiguous response that might mean interest, or might mean that Hawke is surprised that a woman covered head to toe in gore just sexually propositioned her.

A better example would be FemShep's conversations with Jacob as opposed to DudeShep's. There's a strong difference in how they deliver their lines.

[TEWR]

John Epler wrote...

Disapointment wrote...

@ serTabris
I'm not sure what your asking, but I'm talking about getting my dialogue wheel more in-tuned to what my character thinks. So that if i check the "heterosexual" box when i generate the character then that reflects His/Her persona.Then when a flirt option comes up for a same-sex romance it's then turned into a unique refusal or doesn't even show up because of a character guide-line I set.

We aren't going to spend resources on this. Turn him down, and move on with your life. I recommend talking to any number of women that you may be acquainted with insofar as 'what do you do when someone flirts with you and you're not interested' is concerned. It is exactly the same thing.

Not to mention that you already determine your character's sexual orientation, and having someone of the same gender flirt with you doesn't change that. And we're not really interested in creating options or spending zots to further the idea that the very existence of homosexuality (because, aside from a single, easily rejected flirtation, there is no 'romance' here) is something that people should be allowed to hide from.

Well said.

I would, however, like for the option to politely reject peoples' flirtations In hindsight, DAII had a polite rejection. The mechanics were the problem. And for their disapproval to not be tied to Friendship and Rivalry.

Case in point is Anders. He'll flirt with me. I don't mind that. I've been flirted with by other guys in the past and I didn't go....

 (JennaMarbles is awesome)


I've just told them I'm flattered but not interested or something equivalent. There's nothing wrong with them flirting and it's actually realistic. But if I say that I'm not interested in Anders, he shows disappointment and -- based on his line where he thinks Hawke is trying to control his thoughts -- disapproval. I gain Rivalry as a result.

I don't mind the disapproval and disappointment being resigned to the cutscene, but I'd rather they have no part on the mechanics. Especially when they have nothing to do with the core issues of the companion, which Friendship and Rivalry was supposed to be about.

It tends to make Rivalry and Friendship seem like Approval and Disapproval, which other devs have said it shouldn't be seen as.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 mai 2012 - 12:57 .

[JediMindTrix]

Maybe Anders is just immature and doesn't handle rejection well?

[Cantina]

Yes, I never cared for the "I'm not interested" option then the companion gets pissed off about it. So instead of being nice and upfront that you have no interest in them, they rather you be dishonest and lead them on?

I really did not like the fact I pursed a relationship with someone and then someone such as Isabella would keep hitting on me. I'm not against being with women, but even I would have assumed Izzy would have enough respect to not hit on me considering she knows I'm with someone. Now if I initiated the flirting, then yes, I can see her flirting back.

NineCoronas2021 wrote...

Maybe Anders is just immature and doesn't handle rejection well?

Its not just Anders. Companions in Origins too would get pissy if you declined their interest in you.

Modifié par Cantina, 01 mai 2012 - 01:26 .

[TEWR]

I really did not like the fact I pursed a relationship with someone and then someone such as Isabella would keep hitting on me. I'm not against being with women, but even I would have assumed Izzy would have enough respect to not hit on me considering she knows I'm with someone. Now if I initiated the flirting, then yes, I can see her flirting back.

Isabela seems like she has a personality like mine. Innocent flirting even if you know you've got no shot with the person but you're good friends with them.

She's a flirtatious person, so it's in line with her character.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 mai 2012 - 01:30 .

[wsandista]

Cantina wrote...

Yes, I never cared for the "I'm not interested" option then the companion gets pissed off about it. So instead of being nice and upfront that you have no interest in them, they rather you be dishonest and lead them on?

I really did not like the fact I pursed a relationship with someone and then someone such as Isabella would keep hitting on me. I'm not against being with women, but even I would have assumed Izzy would have enough respect to not hit on me considering she knows I'm with someone. Now if I initiated the flirting, then yes, I can see her flirting back.

NineCoronas2021 wrote...

Maybe Anders is just immature and doesn't handle rejection well?

Its not just Anders. Companions in Origins too would get pissy if you declined their interest in you.

It all depends on the character, some may take rejection better than others. I actually liked this, but there needs to be an option to have a conversation to repair the damage your rejection did.

[David Gaider]

wsandista wrote...
but there needs to be an option to have a conversation to repair the damage your rejection did.

Considering you can get Anders to full Friendship three times over during the course of the game, you have plenty of time to regain any points you think you lost (if, indeed, getting Rivalry can be considered "lost points"... it's a path all of its own, and not a punishment). There's really no need for someone to get anxious because they got some Rivalry points with Anders, outside of a compulsive "must micro-manage every single point gain" mentality I guess.

Or do you mean repair the damage to Anders' feelings, in a more esoteric sense? That's slightly more bizarre territory.

[David Gaider]

Filament wrote...
I know you talk about how people saw rivalry as a penalty and how that was a great misconception about the system, but I don't know if that's really the case (it being a misconception). It can be both an alternate path and a penalty, depending on which path you're trying to achieve. Most people are probably going to go for friendship generally, so getting rivalry points would be a loss for them.

I suspect there's two ways that people play.

For some, they try to imagine where they want the character to end up (ie. "I want Anders at full Friendship") and then try to game all their responses to achieve that end. For others, they pick the responses that are most appropriate to the situation or their character and deal with the consequences as they unfold.

We write with the second playstyle in mind, and that sometimes butts up against the first. Getting a few Rivalry points with Anders is only a problem if you absolutely cannot stand the idea of "falling behind" where you want Anders to end up-- despite the fact that there's plenty of opportunities to do so.

It's possible there's others who just thought "rivalry = bad"... as in "this character doesn't like me, so it must be a bad thing". Complicated by the fact that this was how Origins did it. I mentioned this before, but I don't know how true it is. Just an observation of some responses I've seen.

Regardless, the level of panic some players exhibit at the prospect of getting some unwanted Rivalry points with a character is certainly interesting.

[SerTabris]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The problem is that if the PC makes any facial expression then the player can interpret that in a way that's contrary to their perception of the character. Isabela walks up to Hawke and says she has a room at the Hanged Man if Hawke would like some company later. Hawke raises her eyebrows.

There's literally no other change in Hawke's face but the raising of eyebrows. It's an ambiguous response that might mean interest, or might mean that Hawke is surprised that a woman covered head to toe in gore just sexually propositioned her.

A better example would be FemShep's conversations with Jacob as opposed to DudeShep's. There's a strong difference in how they deliver their lines.

I agree with this, and I saw some of that with James in ME3 also. I don't think there should be any flirting in the auto-dialogue. In my game, it just felt sort of wrong.

[Reznore57]

I'd just had a new playthrough, a male rogue , and i had 0 rejection problem.
I played him as a straight guy , never picked the heart response with Anders and Fenris and that's it.
If you don't flirt with them , they don't flirt with you.
I had Merrill coming over to the Hawke estate for some sexy time , turned her down and it was ok .No drama.

I remember Anders in my first playthrought , I think there was a bug where some answers were lacking , and you had to flirt with him or being a jerk ...it was awkward.

The only character i'd ever had a problem with for the rival/friend thing is Fenris.My first playthrought as a mage with him as a romance was a nightmare.I was stuck on nowhere land .Since i was nice to everyone , mage included.So it was like "oh i like Hawke +5 ","Oh , I don't like Hawke -5".I managed to have some sexy time by the end of act 3.Only to pick up the mages and have to kill him.Felt great

I don't think Fenris has a turning point like Merril ,if you don't give her the tool for her mirror , you gain a lot of rival points .That makes things easier.

But the system had its flaws IMHO ,once you're maxed, you can do anything you want and sometimes it seems unreal.Like if you sell Fenris to Danarius nobody hates you.I mean Isabella can sleep with him , Aveline thinks he's a friend but they barely respond to it.That seems out of character for me.

So i'd like the system to be more flexible when important things happen.

[the_one_54321]

Who in the world has multiple turn downs with zero drama? I want that guy's love life.

[Reznore57]

There was no reason for drama ^^.I only flirt with Merril once i think and she came to the estate.So i told her not interested and she just leave.She looked a little bit sad but that's it.(didn't sleep with her and told her to leave ,that would have been cruel)
The only character who is a "drama queen" is Anders.I think he's kind of needy and desperate so if you flirt and you're not serious about it , he's a bit dramatic about it..

[dracuella]

David Gaider wrote...

I suspect there's two ways that people play.

For some, they try to imagine where they want the character to end up (ie. "I want Anders at full Friendship") and then try to game all their responses to achieve that end. For others, they pick the responses that are most appropriate to the situation or their character and deal with the consequences as they unfold.

We write with the second playstyle in mind, and that sometimes butts up against the first. Getting a few Rivalry points with Anders is only a problem if you absolutely cannot stand the idea of "falling behind" where you want Anders to end up-- despite the fact that there's plenty of opportunities to do so.

 

I started out "I want all my companions at full friendship, they're my mates!"  since that's what I did in DA:O. I soon realised, however, I'd have to either constantly swap characters in and out of my party or make decisions that went against my better judgement. Being the sort that likes to stick to my conviction, even in games,  I simply thought "Well bugger it" and made Fenris frown when I got mages off the hook and Anders wince when I told them to go rejoin the Circle. Anders did eventually get to 100% Friendship (I'm a mage-loving mage after all) but Fenris was my rival all the way. And I really enjoyed it, it seemed far more realistic.

David Gaider wrote...  
It's possible there's others who just thought "rivalry = bad"... as in "this character doesn't like me, so it must be a bad thing". Complicated by the fact that this was how Origins did it. I mentioned this before, but I don't know how true it is. Just an observation of some responses I've seen.  

  

This is where the dog lies buried, I think. I'm the sort who wants to miss nothing on the first playthrough, so I got the guidebook, which explains the concept of rivalry very well. But previous to reading it, I did have a "wait, wait, waaait, what is this!?" moment the first time I gained Rivalry. I cannot imagine I'm the only one to have experienced this. 

David Gaider wrote... 
Regardless, the level of panic some players exhibit at the prospect of getting some unwanted Rivalry points with a character is certainly interesting.

 

Panic is a little unfair, I think. If you really want to try to stand by your decisions and at the same time want to be diplomatic and get certain NPCs who disagrees with you to 100% Friendship, you've got a fight ahead of you. Unless you do the NPC swapping a lot. And that to me seemed just like lying. "Wait, Aveline will disapprove of me if I give Merrill the arulinholm (spelling?), let's not bring her along, hush hush."
But then again I suppose, that's the whole point, really. You can't make everyone happy all the time.

[WhiteKnyght]

Like I said before. fading to black before the characters actually gets busy makes the scene feel empty. Shepard's scene with Liara in Mass Effect 3 is a prime example of how DA's devs should do their scenes. Nothing raunchy, or revealing, but shows the emotional and physical connection between the two characters.

Showing us something like that is worlds better than fading to black and the next minute their back to being dressed or semi-dressed(putting Merril in a corset from the Blooming Rose doesn't seem right for a Dalish girl. Should have made something more fitting to her culture)

[Direwolf0294]

David Gaider wrote...

Filament wrote...
I know you talk about how people saw rivalry as a penalty and how that was a great misconception about the system, but I don't know if that's really the case (it being a misconception). It can be both an alternate path and a penalty, depending on which path you're trying to achieve. Most people are probably going to go for friendship generally, so getting rivalry points would be a loss for them.

I suspect there's two ways that people play.

For some, they try to imagine where they want the character to end up (ie. "I want Anders at full Friendship") and then try to game all their responses to achieve that end. For others, they pick the responses that are most appropriate to the situation or their character and deal with the consequences as they unfold.

We write with the second playstyle in mind, and that sometimes butts up against the first. Getting a few Rivalry points with Anders is only a problem if you absolutely cannot stand the idea of "falling behind" where you want Anders to end up-- despite the fact that there's plenty of opportunities to do so.

It's possible there's others who just thought "rivalry = bad"... as in "this character doesn't like me, so it must be a bad thing". Complicated by the fact that this was how Origins did it. I mentioned this before, but I don't know how true it is. Just an observation of some responses I've seen.

Regardless, the level of panic some players exhibit at the prospect of getting some unwanted Rivalry points with a character is certainly interesting.

I sort of fall into that first category because Origins, and to a less extent BioWare's other RPGs, conditioned me to think that if I don't get full friendship with a character I'm going to miss out on story elements with that character. That I'm not going to unlock certain quests or be able to question my companion deeper about their background or feelings on an issue. Plus, you know, there are gameplay advantages for making a companion like you. Stat increases and the like. That sort of thing's not that important to me but it is to some people and I feel if you really were writting companion interaction for the second type of person you describe you wouldn'y offer rewards for getting a companion to %100 like or %100 rivalry.

On the subject of companions flirting with you though I'll say that I'm fine with it but that I'd like the option to let them down gently. What I hated about Anders flirting with me was that there was no "Sorry, I don't feel that way about you. Let's just be friends" option. Going forward into DA3 I think that should be an option anytime a companion, or anyone else for that matter, flirts with you. You can either turn them down gently or you can straight up harshly tell them no.