649 réponses à ce sujet

[Cantina]

BobSmith101 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Some relationships may implement gifts as tokens of affection, or as some sort of pacification for things-done-wrong, as you are suggesting. But not all relationships. It's unfair to judge all reltionships on this criteria.

Got any examples where that is not the case ? I've never experienced or heard of any.

I have a florist on speed dial for nights when I have to work late.

Oh you poor poor man. My husband knows the way to my heart....STFU and leave me alone, I'm playing my game.

[whykikyouwhy]

BobSmith101 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Some relationships may implement gifts as tokens of affection, or as some sort of pacification for things-done-wrong, as you are suggesting. But not all relationships. It's unfair to judge all reltionships on this criteria.

Got any examples where that is not the case ? I've never experienced or heard of any.

I have a florist on speed dial for nights when I have to work late.

My examples are personal - my own relationships and those of friends of mine and family. 

If that is not the case for you, well...that may or may not be unfortunate, based on your point of view. But in reality, relationships develop and are measured by a wide variety of things. So to say that they only operate in one single fashion is a very narrow viewpoint of the world at large.

[Sutekh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Some relationships may implement gifts as tokens of affection, or as some sort of pacification for things-done-wrong, as you are suggesting. But not all relationships. It's unfair to judge all reltionships on this criteria.

Got any examples where that is not the case ? I've never experienced or heard of any.

*Raises hand* Yours truly. Also most of the people I know. Gifts, especially on birthdays and anniversaries, are only a mean to say that you care / didn't forget. In case of disagreement, I'm more pleased by a gesture of good will - even if it's not a material one - than a gift. A lot, lot more. I'd even be a bit insulted if people and especially my s.o. thought that giving me a gift is enough to win me.

To tell you the truth, first time I played DAO and attempted to placate a pissed off Alistair with a gift I was expecting him to throw it back at me, and quite surprised when it didn't happen.

[whykikyouwhy]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Hmmm, I do hope my post wasn’t so vague as to be so poorly understood by everyone. To confirm, I was talking about party members.

And again, they are not "all bi." You have 7 potential companions, 5 of which are romanceable. That hardly qualifies as "all."

[jlb524]

Fandango9641 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

I have so much respect for Biowares stance on in game sexuality but I can’t agree with those supporting the idea of an all BI cast of characters for any game. I mean the claim that one should be able to romance any character, regardless of race, sex or sexual orientation is, on its face, ridiculous right? Much better to have a cast of clearly defined characters, with a wide variety of sexual desires and motivations than the one size fits all approach some here seem to be advocating.

But the cast is not "all BI." We don't even know how half of the characters within the game (companions *and* other NPCs) would identify themselves because that topic does not come up in conversation...much like IRL.

There are only 5 romancable characters in DA2. How are those 5 representative for the entire cast? And I would argue that the characters in the game are indeed clearly defined. They may not be wearing their sexual identities on their sleeves, but they are well defined and well rounded in other ways.

Hmmm, I do hope my post wasn’t so vague as to be so poorly understood by everyone. To confirm, I was talking about party members.

All the party members weren't bi.

[LadyJaneGrey]

BobSmith101 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Some relationships may implement gifts as tokens of affection, or as some sort of pacification for things-done-wrong, as you are suggesting. But not all relationships. It's unfair to judge all reltionships on this criteria.

Got any examples where that is not the case ? I've never experienced or heard of any.

I have a florist on speed dial for nights when I have to work late.

You must not have gone through the "broke graduate student" phase of a relationship.  Not a whole lot of gift-giving, but an incredible amount of love during that time.

[John Epler]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Some relationships may implement gifts as tokens of affection, or as some sort of pacification for things-done-wrong, as you are suggesting. But not all relationships. It's unfair to judge all reltionships on this criteria.

Got any examples where that is not the case ? I've never experienced or heard of any.

I have a florist on speed dial for nights when I have to work late.

You must not have gone through the "broke graduate student" phase of a relationship.  Not a whole lot of gift-giving, but an incredible amount of love during that time.

Or any time that you're trying to save money. If I showered my fiancee with gifts on a daily basis, I'm pretty sure there'd be a conversation about how much money I was wasting at some point.

But this is starting to move off-topic.

[AkiKishi]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Some relationships may implement gifts as tokens of affection, or as some sort of pacification for things-done-wrong, as you are suggesting. But not all relationships. It's unfair to judge all reltionships on this criteria.

Got any examples where that is not the case ? I've never experienced or heard of any.

I have a florist on speed dial for nights when I have to work late.

My examples are personal - my own relationships and those of friends of mine and family. 

If that is not the case for you, well...that may or may not be unfortunate, based on your point of view. But in reality, relationships develop and are measured by a wide variety of things. So to say that they only operate in one single fashion is a very narrow viewpoint of the world at large.

And you ignore her birthday and your anniversary without repurcussions ? Want to swap ? Just kidding..

Well I don't talk to my partner in canned responses either. It's a game , it's an abstraction. Anyone saying that gifts are somehow unrealistic though, well I don't get their logic. Unless you question the motives of the giver, then a gift should make you happy.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 01 mai 2012 - 05:59 .

[jlb524]

Fandango9641 wrote...
**** me, you do understand that I'm not talking about DA2 right? Once more: I’m not a fan of the idea that every single party member should reasonably be a romantic option for a single protagonist, irrespective of PC gender. Follow?

Why would you even worry about something like that considering BW's never created a game where every party member was a romance option?

[whykikyouwhy]

Fandango9641 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Hmmm, I do hope my post wasn’t so vague as to be so poorly understood by everyone. To confirm, I was talking about party members.

And again, they are not "all bi." You have 7 potential companions, 5 of which are romanceable. That hardly qualifies as "all."

**** me, you do understand that I'm not talking about DA2 right? Once more: I’m not a fan of the idea that every single party member should reasonably be a romantic option for a single protagonist. Follow?

Well, considering that we have no details on the next game yet, and therefore have no idea how many companions there will be or how many might be romanceable, you're just taking stabs at what you think is going to happen? That all of the next-not-yet-named-DA-game companions will be not only be romanceable LIs but also identified as bi?

Yeah. I follow. You're making a lot of assumptions.

[mousestalker]

To clarify, of the two non-romanceable companions (other than siblings), Aveline is Donnic-sexual and Varric is a ousophile. Neither seems especially bi.

[Maria Caliban]

Doesn't Aveline ask FemHawke if there was ever something between them?

Sebastian is straight.

mousestalker wrote...

...ousophile...

I think you just made that up!

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 01 mai 2012 - 06:30 .

[hoorayforicecream]

BobSmith101 wrote...

And you ignore her birthday and your anniversary without repurcussions ? Want to swap ? Just kidding..

Well I don't talk to my partner in canned responses either. It's a game , it's an abstraction. Anyone saying that gifts are somehow unrealistic though, well I don't get their logic. Unless you question the motives of the giver, then a gift should make you happy.

There's a difference between giving a gift to show you care and making the gift the basis of the relationship. I've known people in (and been in myself) relationships based on both.

In the first case, the gift isn't what is important, but the sentiment. These are people who stay together because they care about each other. The gift isn't necessarily something expensive, a handmade card and a visit to a place that's important to them is what matters.

In the second case, the gift *is* important. The receiver wants the new watch, the nice clothes, the vacation, the fancy restaurants, the expensive drinks. This person's approval isn't about care, it's about getting the next shiny item.

DA2 tends to drop more into the former category. The only gifts that can be given to companions tend to be personal and thoughtful to them. The gifts have more special significance with regards to the character.

DAO tends to drop into the latter category. You *can* give sentimental gifts, but you can also shovel jewelry, wine bottles, paintings, or even soup bones at them until they love you. This particular aspect of DAO severely cheapened the relationships to me. Any decisions I made that the follower didn't outright try to kill me for were reduced to temporary setbacks. All I needed to do was bribe them with enough soup bones, and I'd get back into their good graces.

[mousestalker]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Doesn't Aveline ask FemHawke if there was ever something between them?

Sebastian is straight.

mousestalker wrote...

...ousophile...

I think you just made that up!

You would win that bet.

The better term is gastraphetephile.

:innocent:

[Dutchess]

Cantina wrote...

<shakes head>

That is considered situational circumstances. Yes, you could lose them that way. However, in one my games I managed to agree to keep them around but still they were rivals with me. Yes, you could lose them if you chose to go that route, or you could go the route of being a rival to them without having to do something that completely removes them from your party.

That's odd though, in my game Fenris was at complete Rivlary and pretty much gave me the finger and I ended up fighting him. So I went back and had to do games with him as a friend.

Fair enough, but that still means you have to consider all your companions wishes when you make decisions. That was limiting and a bit petty, considering the goal of the Warden and how many lives depended on him/her succeeding. And not friending the DAO was more limiting than in DA2, since you did not receive their personal quests, or their combat bonusses. The rivalry system did fix those issues, and you did not miss out on interaction, whether in DAO you would pretty much only get more dialogue with them if you got their friendship higher. 
And in Zevran's case, you did lose him by simply not having high enough approval. 

And Fenris betraying with full rivalry is odd indeed. Did you do all his personal quests? I think that is another requirement for him to remain loyal when he has rivalry with you. 

I understand your issue with friendship/rivalry, but I don't agree DAO was better in that regard. I prefer DA2 anytime, since I haven't experienced that much trouble with maxing my companions' relationships. 

[SeanMurphy2]

../../../images/forum/emoticons/happy.png I actually forgot about Sebastian when I was raging in the other thread.


In practice I suppose it is a complicated issue for game designers. The game is structured with the player as the hero of the story. So companions can't be made too picky or independent.

Character can't be a sidekick in the group, who fails all attempts at romance and does not have much influence on the plot.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 01 mai 2012 - 07:02 .

[Maria Caliban]

mousestalker wrote...


You would win that bet.

The better term is gastraphetephile.

:innocent:

There's a place for you to work your linguistic perversions on Varric. It's called fanfiction. Not the discussion forums.

[Cantina]

renjility wrote...

Cantina wrote...

<shakes head>

That is considered situational circumstances. Yes, you could lose them that way. However, in one my games I managed to agree to keep them around but still they were rivals with me. Yes, you could lose them if you chose to go that route, or you could go the route of being a rival to them without having to do something that completely removes them from your party.

That's odd though, in my game Fenris was at complete Rivlary and pretty much gave me the finger and I ended up fighting him. So I went back and had to do games with him as a friend.

Fair enough, but that still means you have to consider all your companions wishes when you make decisions. That was limiting and a bit petty, considering the goal of the Warden and how many lives depended on him/her succeeding. And not friending the DAO was more limiting than in DA2, since you did not receive their personal quests, or their combat bonusses. The rivalry system did fix those issues, and you did not miss out on interaction, whether in DAO you would pretty much only get more dialogue with them if you got their friendship higher. 
And in Zevran's case, you did lose him by simply not having high enough approval. 

And Fenris betraying with full rivalry is odd indeed. Did you do all his personal quests? I think that is another requirement for him to remain loyal when he has rivalry with you. 

I understand your issue with friendship/rivalry, but I don't agree DAO was better in that regard. I prefer DA2 anytime, since I haven't experienced that much trouble with maxing my companions' relationships. 

Meh, Zev is more like an after dinner mint. Enjoyable for a while but then melts away. Sides, its rather easy to maintain rivlary in Origins-assuming you have the downloadable content to retain it.

Well I got comabt bounses in Origins, again from Dowloadable content...well towards attributes, but eh close enough.

I perfer earning their personal request then it be handed to me on a silver platter. Means they trust you enough to ask you for your help. Think of it terms this way, meet a complete stranger you know nothing about and they ask you to run a mile to give their grandmother a bundt cake. Yes, bad example, but still, I don't think anyone I know would ask me to do something for him/her unless they know me.

Yes, I sure did all Fenris' quests. He still turned on me.

[Cantina]

John Epler wrote...

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Some relationships may implement gifts as tokens of affection, or as some sort of pacification for things-done-wrong, as you are suggesting. But not all relationships. It's unfair to judge all reltionships on this criteria.

Got any examples where that is not the case ? I've never experienced or heard of any.

I have a florist on speed dial for nights when I have to work late.

You must not have gone through the "broke graduate student" phase of a relationship.  Not a whole lot of gift-giving, but an incredible amount of love during that time.

Or any time that you're trying to save money. If I showered my fiancee with gifts on a daily basis, I'm pretty sure there'd be a conversation about how much money I was wasting at some point.

But this is starting to move off-topic.

Uh that depends hun, are these gifts, games cause if they are, well I certainly would not get pissy for you showering me with gifts and wasting money. Oh, right, I'm not your fiancee, damnit.

[wsandista]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

And you ignore her birthday and your anniversary without repurcussions ? Want to swap ? Just kidding..

Well I don't talk to my partner in canned responses either. It's a game , it's an abstraction. Anyone saying that gifts are somehow unrealistic though, well I don't get their logic. Unless you question the motives of the giver, then a gift should make you happy.

There's a difference between giving a gift to show you care and making the gift the basis of the relationship. I've known people in (and been in myself) relationships based on both.

In the first case, the gift isn't what is important, but the sentiment. These are people who stay together because they care about each other. The gift isn't necessarily something expensive, a handmade card and a visit to a place that's important to them is what matters.

In the second case, the gift *is* important. The receiver wants the new watch, the nice clothes, the vacation, the fancy restaurants, the expensive drinks. This person's approval isn't about care, it's about getting the next shiny item.

DA2 tends to drop more into the former category. The only gifts that can be given to companions tend to be personal and thoughtful to them. The gifts have more special significance with regards to the character.

DAO tends to drop into the latter category. You *can* give sentimental gifts, but you can also shovel jewelry, wine bottles, paintings, or even soup bones at them until they love you. This particular aspect of DAO severely cheapened the relationships to me. Any decisions I made that the follower didn't outright try to kill me for were reduced to temporary setbacks. All I needed to do was bribe them with enough soup bones, and I'd get back into their good graces.

In DAO the gifts were about sentiment, you give them something they like and they're grateful. Works like that with every girlfriend I've had, for instance my ex liked 70's garage, so one day I gave her a Stooges cd and she liked it quite a bit and was pleased with me:wub:.

Of course DAO is a game so it is not going to behave like a normal person would, any partner(or friend) would find it strange if one day you showed up with a bag of stuff they liked and started handing them things. That just happens in games, kind of like in DA2 when you have a "questioning beliefs" quest and a gift and you have to do both in seperate conversations.

[SerraAdvocate]

My biggest problems with romances in the various games are: (1) that it can be far too easy to accidentally slip into them (although that's more of a problem in Mass Effect), and (2) they're always interested in you if you're interested in them. Still my favorite romance in all of BioWaredom is Viconia in BG2 (although Aribeth is a close second), and one of the reasons it is my favorite is how easy it is to screw it up. You have to be careful about what dialogue you pick with Viconia, because picking wrong doesn't just end the conversation, it can end or prevent you from starting the romance. She's not necessarily interested in you, it's not as simple as "I like you" and she swoons.

In Dragon Age 2 you need to get your relationship score up, but that's relatively easy and they're interested if you're rivals or if you're friends, and all the "initiate romance" dialogue options are clearly marked as such (and they're all basically just "flirt"). No matter what kind of character you are, everyone is interested.

In Dragon Age 2, I can think of one dialogue fork which reflects the "you need to say the right thing or the romance is over" and that's after you sleep with Isabela, you have to ask her about feelings. The "right" decision to pursue the romance isn't marked flirt, and the "wrong" decision - which seems to result in a friends with benefits but no in-depth romantic relationship - is not marked with the broken heart.

Not to say those romances are bad. My (female) Hawke was not at all interested in Anders, Merrill, or Fenris, but the relationship with Isabela was great - in part, because I was sarcastic-Hawke and the two of them got along famously. I enjoyed the romance and thought it added a lot to the game. But there was no challenge in it. Just spending sufficient time talking to Fenris or Anders or Merrill and choosing a clearly marked "flirt" option makes all three of them swoon.

Modifié par Helm505, 01 mai 2012 - 07:25 .