649 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Sure we are lacking detail with regards DA3, but why should that preclude me from offering a contrary view to those who support the idea of having every single romancable party member be bisexual? Are we even having the same conversation?

Feel free to offer a contrary view, but if you're going to suggest that people who want bisexual LIs want all NPCs to be romancable or are demanding all companions be romancable, you're going to be called on that.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 01 mai 2012 - 07:25 .

[Cantina]

Hey...Mr. Gaider.....got a question for you..........


Why were players not allowed to do either of the following for Anders gift.

1. Give Anders a new kitten from the litter Merill metioned as a gift

                                           OR
2. The "friend" from ameranthine shows up and asks you to return Ser Pounce'Alot to Anders.



Seems like a cat or his cat would have been more meaningful. I feel so sorry he lost his cat.

Modifié par Cantina, 01 mai 2012 - 07:25 .

[5trangeCase]

So I was reading the Geek and Sundry interview thread that evolved into the "why is everyone bisexual?" thread but suitably, that divergence was halted and this thread was referenced for the discussion, before I had a chance to quote a Dev:

David Gaider wrote...

It's not something that comes up because it's private-- and also because there are no terms that exist in that era.

Ok, are you saying here, that everyone in Thedas is bisexual? Because I was confused.

For the record, coming from surroundings in which people are heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual, I am obviously on the side of: people are so, and our companions should be so.

But I wanted to know whether in your fantasy world, everyone is automatically bisexual? If so, fair enough.

And for the record, my personal resolution to this problem is going along the lines of the school of thought that everyone is different degrees of bisexual: make everyone either heterosexual or homosexual (with the exception of nymphomaniacs, like Isabela) and then make it possible, but twice as hard to get them to swing the other way. They "reject" you if you are of the inappropriate sex, but if you are that kind of character, you can persist and win their attention. Then everyone except a very small minority is happy.

Personally, no matter how hard someone tried, I can say that I personally wouldn't, but I think the companions should have sexual orientations, and I think this is a fair compromise.

Modifié par 5trangeCase, 01 mai 2012 - 07:52 .

[Sutekh]

Helm505 wrote...

But there was no challenge in it. Just spending sufficient time talking to Fenris or Anders or Merrill and choosing a clearly marked "flirt" option makes all three of them swoon.

Actually, with the Isabela exception, you need more than that.

On the surface, the condition for it to happen seems simple: Act II, Questioning Beliefs. If you have flirted before, you should be good. But for Questioning Beliefs to be available you need two pre-existing conditions: At least 50 Friendship / Rivalry and having completed the LI's personal quest in Act II.

Some previous romances can also prevent the flirt option to even appear (so no romance), It's a bit complex to explain but romancing several LIs can be rather acrobatic (and not possible simultaneously).

So it's not a challenge, but the "just hit the <3 and they'll fall for you" is a myth. DA2 romance mechanism doesn't work that way.

[SerraAdvocate]

Sutekh wrote...

Helm505 wrote...

But there was no challenge in it. Just spending sufficient time talking to Fenris or Anders or Merrill and choosing a clearly marked "flirt" option makes all three of them swoon.

Actually, with the Isabela exception, you need more than that.

On the surface, the condition for it to happen seems simple: Act II, Questioning Beliefs. If you have flirted before, you should be good. But for Questioning Beliefs to be available you need two pre-existing conditions: At least 50 Friendship / Rivalry and having completed the LI's personal quest in Act II.

Some previous romances can also prevent the flirt option to even appear (so no romance), It's a bit complex to explain but romancing several LIs can be rather acrobatic (and not possible simultaneously).

So it's not a challenge, but the "just hit the <3 and they'll fall for you" is a myth. DA2 romance mechanism doesn't work that way.

But the requirements are just have rivalry or friendship - which you'll have, if they spend time in your party - and do their personal quest. There's no difficulty there, and those requirements are basically perfunctary. In terms of dialogue, all you ever have to do is press flirt.

[Sutekh]

5trangeCase wrote...

And for the record, my personal resolution to this problem is going along the lines of the school of thought that everyone is different degrees of bisexual: make everyone either heterosexual or homosexual (with the exception of nymphomaniacs, like Isabela)

Please tell me you didn't mean that Isabela is allowed to be bisexual because she's a nymphomaniac.

Because there would be so much wrong in that, on so many points, that I don't even know where to begin.

And I don't think that's what Gaider meant. He meant that it's not something that everyone would talk about, and that in Thedas, there are no clear definitions, no labels, to define it.

[Ianamus]

Romances are a large part of Bioware games for me, as they develop both the player character and the party members, as well as making the lead character seem more human and less of a puppet. 

As for what I want Dragon Age: 3's romances to achieve... I want them to achieve what Mass Effect and Dragon Age Origins managed to do, make me genuinely care about the characters. Obviously this is very subjective (and personal preference plays into it a lot) but it's not just about how the character is written (although that plays a large role) but also the amount and level of interaction with said character. 

Let me take two examples of LI's from recent Bioware games who I really liked: Leliana and Tali, and compare them against my LI in Dragon Age 2: Merrill. All of these characters were well written, but out of them I personally liked Tali the most, closely followed by Leliana and Merrill the least. As I said, I really liked all of their characters, so that played little part in how I felt about them. I think that it's all about time, interaction and visuals. 

Leliana had the most in-depth dialogue trees of all three, and that was one of the reasons I liked her so much. I could talk to her about her past, have her recite bard stories and the sheer amount of dialogue meant that I could talk to her for ages, and have new conversations with her frequently, which was realistic and allowed the relationship to progress at my own pace and very smoothly. 

Tali had more limited dialogue, but benefitted greatly from not being an LI in the first game and being in all three games. The dialogue options were occasionally limited, but I found conversations with her interesting, and after talking about her homeworld/people we actually met and visited them. You've known her for so long and spent so long (as a player) speaking to her/ fighting alongside her that the progress of the relationship feels very natural. 

Compare that to Merrill. I thought that the three year time gaps would make the relationships grow more naturally than other Bioware games, but somehow it made them feel even more forced and unnatural. I think that what's important isn't how long the character has supposedly known the LI, or how long they've supposedly spent with them, but how long the player has. And limiting dialogue options, dialogue overall and making much of the relationship's development take place off-screen made the pacing very awkward. 

Another important thing is the visual aspect. I'm not talking about attractiveness, but graphics, and how it ties into the uncanny valley. Leliana was generally good, but the singing scene was slightly off-putting visual wise. It wasn't serious, but crept me out slightly because it looked... off. Again, Merrill suffered from this, particularly in the scene when Hawke and her are lying in bed. I'm not sure if it was the angle of her arm or what but... what should have been a touching scene felt strange, and I wanted it to end because the body positions did not look natural and it sort of crept me out. I know that this is a grphic limitation, but similar "cuddling" scenes in the Mass Effect games worked much better in my opinion, proportion wise. 

Many people say that Tali is appealing because she can be as "attractive as you wanted her to be" but the mask did far more than let us imagine her appearance for ourselves, it also let her overcome some of the graphic limitations that can make other characters appear off-putting, and this worked strongly in her favour. 

Sorry for the overly-long post, but I thought I'd share where I felt DA:2 was lacking in regards to romances. I hope that Dragon Age 3 will be better than ever in this regard. 

Modifié par EJ107, 01 mai 2012 - 08:04 .

[thats1evildude]

Helm505 wrote...

But the requirements are just have rivalry or friendship - which you'll have, if they spend time in your party - and do their personal quest. There's no difficulty there, and those requirements are basically perfunctary. In terms of dialogue, all you ever have to do is press flirt.

But it was still more difficult to initiate a romance than in DAO. In the first game, you had to do to start a romance with any of the four love interests was hit the right dialogue option, then raise their approval a bit. (A very tiny bit, in the case of Morrigan and Zevran.) Only Alistair and Leliana required the completion of a personal quest.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 01 mai 2012 - 08:01 .

[Sutekh]

Helm505 wrote...

But the requirements are just have rivalry or friendship - which you'll have, if they spend time in your party - and do their personal quest. There's no difficulty there, and those requirements are basically perfunctary. In terms of dialogue, all you ever have to do is press flirt.

I learned the hard way that having someone in your party isn't enough to reach those magical 50 R / F (Isabela, I'm looking at you). It's not as simple as it may seem. Take Fenris, for instance: you can win points with slavery topics, and go the other way with the mage topic, remaining roughly in the middle. And if you roleplay a "Freedom for the People" type Hawke, that's easy to do.

And keep in mind that the flirt option might not show up at all, depending on past actions and dialogs.

I'm not saying that's an intricate, complex system. It's a computer based one in a game that's not romance-centric. I'm saying that, contrary to popular belief, flirting isn't enough.

Modifié par Sutekh, 01 mai 2012 - 08:06 .

[SeanMurphy2]

5trangeCase wrote...

And for the record, my personal resolution to this problem is going along the lines of the school of thought that everyone is different degrees of bisexual: make everyone either heterosexual or homosexual (with the exception of nymphomaniacs, like Isabela) and then make it possible, but twice as hard to get them to swing the other way. They "reject" you if you are of the inappropriate sex, but if you are that kind of character, you can persist and win their attention. Then everyone except a very small minority is happy.

Personally, no matter how hard someone tried, I can say that I personally wouldn't, but I think the companions should have sexual orientations, and I think this is a fair compromise.

I just interpreted it as suggesting that characters like Merril/Fenris not having a clearly identified sexuality, Except that they are  willing to form a relationship with Hawke.

Therefore it is up to the player to infer what they want about Merrils/Fenris's sexuality from their actions and context.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 01 mai 2012 - 08:06 .

[MrsMime]

I agree with everything the OP said. I found the romances in DA2 very rushed.
I romanced Isabela, and even with all the flirting and sarcastic options and whatnot, I was never sure if I was on the right track. Then, what felt like all of a sudden, she says "I think I'm falling for you", which is great, but seemed a little out of nowhere. I guess that's consistent with her character, but I just thought it could have been smoother. In Origins, the dialogue was more expansive, you could have more conversations, learn more about the character, and it just generally felt more organic.

Also, I thought you could get more of a feeling for the character's interest in you as well; when talking to them, whether at camp or out and about, their speech was often peppered with remarks that revealed their intentions. I also would have liked to see in DA2 something like what happened with Alistair, where he gives you the rose..in DA2, you just give the other characters gifts. They're like "thanks", you get to flirt, and that's it. Didn't feel very reciprocal. It would have been nice to see some gestures from Hawke's love interests.

[berelinde]

Sutekh wrote...

5trangeCase wrote...

And for the record, my personal resolution to this problem is going along the lines of the school of thought that everyone is different degrees of bisexual: make everyone either heterosexual or homosexual (with the exception of nymphomaniacs, like Isabela)

Please tell me you didn't mean that Isabela is allowed to be bisexual because she's a nymphomaniac.

Because there would be so much wrong in that, on so many points, that I don't even know where to begin.

Yeah, that's kind of messed up, but the biggest problem I have with 5trange Case's proposal is in the part you didn't quote. The part where the protagonist has to work twice as hard to win the affections of the LI, depending on gender. Apart from the fact that writing two different romances for each character would be hell, it implies that sexual orientation is a choice and that it can be changed if they just work at it hard enough.

[Dakota Strider]

thats1evildude wrote...

Helm505 wrote...

But the requirements are just have rivalry or friendship - which you'll have, if they spend time in your party - and do their personal quest. There's no difficulty there, and those requirements are basically perfunctary. In terms of dialogue, all you ever have to do is press flirt.

But it was still more difficult to initiate a romance than in DAO. In the first game, you had to do to start a romance with any of the four love interests was hit the right dialogue option, then raise their approval a bit. (A very tiny bit, in the case of Morrigan and Zevran.) Only Alistair and Leliana required the completion of a personal quest.

It may have certainly have been very easy to get Morrigan to sleep with your character in DAO, but do not mistake that for romance.  She says so herself, that she does not want anything more.  If you really want Morrigan to fall in love with you, it does take some work.  Far more, than any of the experiences I had in DA2.

[dracuella]

MrsMime wrote...

Also, I thought you could get more of a feeling for the character's interest in you as well; when talking to them, whether at camp or out and about, their speech was often peppered with remarks that revealed their intentions. I also would have liked to see in DA2 something like what happened with Alistair, where he gives you the rose..in DA2, you just give the other characters gifts. They're like "thanks", you get to flirt, and that's it. Didn't feel very reciprocal. It would have been nice to see some gestures from Hawke's love interests.

This. I completely agree with this. One of my fondest memories from DAO is -still- my Alistair romance where he gives me the rose. Not becoming queen, not slaying an archdemon and ending a blight while being revered by an entire nation. No, it's that silly rose. It's so sweet and he's so damn awkward and.. *sigh*. I would have loved for my LIs to do something completely in character to show their affection to your PC: Like Isabella bringing over, oh I don't know, a dress, a suit for you telling you how smashing you'd look in it? Or Fenris bringing over a book of poems (totally stealing the idea of some fanfiction I've read here) as thanks for you teaching him how to read.. I don't know, I just like to get that heartpounding experience that was Alistair's rose or Zevran's earring.

[wsandista]

Dakota Strider wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Helm505 wrote...

But the requirements are just have rivalry or friendship - which you'll have, if they spend time in your party - and do their personal quest. There's no difficulty there, and those requirements are basically perfunctary. In terms of dialogue, all you ever have to do is press flirt.

But it was still more difficult to initiate a romance than in DAO. In the first game, you had to do to start a romance with any of the four love interests was hit the right dialogue option, then raise their approval a bit. (A very tiny bit, in the case of Morrigan and Zevran.) Only Alistair and Leliana required the completion of a personal quest.

It may have certainly have been very easy to get Morrigan to sleep with your character in DAO, but do not mistake that for romance.  She says so herself, that she does not want anything more.  If you really want Morrigan to fall in love with you, it does take some work.  Far more, than any of the experiences I had in DA2.

That's because all you had to do in DA2 is this
1.Flirt
2.get/keep Rivalry/Friendship up
3. Don't kill the LI(Fenris, Anders, Merrill only)
Do those things and you have a romance

DAO romance was tailored to the characters, Leliana is probably the easiest to have a love romance with(only requires personal quest), then Alistair(same as leliana, but you have to go to a specific area first), then Zevran, then Morrigan(easiest to sleep with hardest to love)

[TanithAeyrs]

David Gaider wrote...

Filament wrote...
I know you talk about how people saw rivalry as a penalty and how that was a great misconception about the system, but I don't know if that's really the case (it being a misconception). It can be both an alternate path and a penalty, depending on which path you're trying to achieve. Most people are probably going to go for friendship generally, so getting rivalry points would be a loss for them.

I suspect there's two ways that people play.

For some, they try to imagine where they want the character to end up (ie. "I want Anders at full Friendship") and then try to game all their responses to achieve that end. For others, they pick the responses that are most appropriate to the situation or their character and deal with the consequences as they unfold.

We write with the second playstyle in mind, and that sometimes butts up against the first. Getting a few Rivalry points with Anders is only a problem if you absolutely cannot stand the idea of "falling behind" where you want Anders to end up-- despite the fact that there's plenty of opportunities to do so.

It's possible there's others who just thought "rivalry = bad"... as in "this character doesn't like me, so it must be a bad thing". Complicated by the fact that this was how Origins did it. I mentioned this before, but I don't know how true it is. Just an observation of some responses I've seen.

Regardless, the level of panic some players exhibit at the prospect of getting some unwanted Rivalry points with a character is certainly interesting.

I actually thought the friendship/rivarly system added depth to the characters.  I rivalmanced Fenris twice - the first time I didn't get to 100% rival and he betrayed me - but it fit his character and I found his rejection pulled emotional strings that were surprising for a video game character.  I would be sad to see the end of the friendship/rivalry system as it adds an extra element to gameplay for me.  I have also done both friendship and rivalry paths with Merril, Isabela, and Sebastian (not romance).  

I don't really care about the LI's being straight or bi.  I roleplay my characters so they react appropriately for their individual character.  I also prefer fade to black love scenes - although I think the scenes in DAO and the ME series were tastefully done.  I would rather have more dialog/gifts/ other interaction than the love scenes - although I do use a mod in DAO that lets me kiss my LI anywhere - for some characters it feels appropriate. 

I do feel that the DAO characters had more depth - I've said this in another thread.  In DAO the NPC's talked about things besides their major emotional/life issues and it made them feel more real ( Zev and fish chowder, Leliana and clothes, ect).  I've been replaying BG2 lately (in between Skyrim sessions) and it has reminded me of why I loved the game so much.  There were "wrong" answers and NPC's who didn't get along at all.  Complex dialogs with uncertain outcomes and NPC's who showed huge emotional growth or overcame complex issues to be a friend or romantic interest to the PC.  I suspect that is why I've fallen into the "Zev romance" camp in DAO.  His seems to be the most difficult romance to complete without spamming gifts (and Zev is ridiculously awesome).

The problem with gamers - myself included - is that we want it all.  My ultimate game would be an open world "Elder Scrolls" type game with Bioware quality dialog for all the NPC's.   The game would probably consume 50G and be unplayable because of bugs from all the conditions put on dialog trees - but there's the fantasy.  So I again ask Bioware to do what it does best for DA3 - amazing dialog and questlines that allow depth of roleplay and complex NPC interactions in both romance and friendship.

[hoorayforicecream]

Dakota Strider wrote...

It may have certainly have been very easy to get Morrigan to sleep with your character in DAO, but do not mistake that for romance.  She says so herself, that she does not want anything more.  If you really want Morrigan to fall in love with you, it does take some work.  Far more, than any of the experiences I had in DA2.

Except you get the achievement for completing the romance (Witch Gone Wild) after sleeping with her.

[Dakota Strider]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

It may have certainly have been very easy to get Morrigan to sleep with your character in DAO, but do not mistake that for romance.  She says so herself, that she does not want anything more.  If you really want Morrigan to fall in love with you, it does take some work.  Far more, than any of the experiences I had in DA2.

Except you get the achievement for completing the romance (Witch Gone Wild) after sleeping with her.

For me, the achievements mean absolutely nothing.  I do not need an icon on some bulletin board to tell me if I had a satisfying experience when I play a game.   I guess that particular achievement is for bedding companions, not actually building a relationship.  At least in the case of Morrigan.

[TanithAeyrs]

Dakota Strider wrote...


For me, the achievements mean absolutely nothing.  I do not need an icon on some bulletin board to tell me if I had a satisfying experience when I play a game.   I guess that particular achievement is for bedding companions, not actually building a relationship.  At least in the case of Morrigan.

Agreed.  I could care less about the achievements - there are several I'm sure I'll never get (unless I finish my b****** Cousland playthorough with my immoral character).  Zev's romance had very little to do with sleeping with him and was mostly about convincing him that he was someone worth caring for - I'm sure Morrigan's was much the same.

Modifié par TanithAeyrs, 01 mai 2012 - 09:53 .

[TEWR]

Dakota Strider wrote...

It was not that hard to figure out. On my first playthrough, I realized that at least 3 of the characters were gay or bisexual, and I did not go to the forums until long after I played DA2. And it was pretty easy to conclude that all four possible LI's were bi after that. So, that meant of the 7 possible companions in the game, (Varric, Aveline and your sibling included) over half of the party was bi. It broke immersion for me. I mean...yeah that is very possible for something like that to happen randomly, though the odds would be small. But it would generally take someone actively seeking to make the majority of the party to be bisexual/gay for that to happen logically.

Well, Fenris and Merrill's bisexuality can be justified. Fenris' backstory helps establish why he is that way and we never really knew Merrill enough to establish her sexuality. Plus, DAO stated the general direction of where her clan was headed. And Isabela was clearly made out to be bi in both games. And Anders' dialogue in Awakening was seen to convey a flirtatious nature by some people.

So it's not that hard to believe, if you chalk it up to circumstance bringing 4 people open in their sexuality together. That's what I do.

I don't mind DAII having the romances be all bi -- save for Sebastian -- but I'd prefer it not be the standard for every subsequent romance.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 mai 2012 - 10:04 .

[Curlain]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

...

DAO tends to drop into the latter category. You *can* give sentimental gifts, but you can also shovel jewelry, wine bottles, paintings, or even soup bones at them until they love you. This particular aspect of DAO severely cheapened the relationships to me. Any decisions I made that the follower didn't outright try to kill me for were reduced to temporary setbacks. All I needed to do was bribe them with enough soup bones, and I'd get back into their good graces.

This above complaint I never really understand.  Yes the gift system of DA:O could be used to abuse the approval/disapproval system, however the main point is could.  As a game it never forced you to exploit the system, you could just treat all the gifts appart from key character plot specific ones as loot to be sold (which it equally was), and ignore it.  If a player realises that spamming gifts is making approval/disapproval artifical, and they feel as you do that doing that is cheapening the relationship, then simply don't use the gifts, sell most of it along with other loot and destroy the few things that couldn't be sold.  Do that and the approval/disapproval works as intended, and you have much more meaniful relationships with companions (and little bit more coin to boot).

I just don't understand people saying how they hated the gift system in DA:O because spamming gifts at companions made the relationships trivial, as if the game forced them do it, when such actions are purely optional and in the player's hands alone.  If it was making the game less enjoyable for them, why do they keep doing it?

So for me, it was never an issue, just an aspect of the game giving more player choice and freedom (which is alway a good thing in my book).  If a player wants to have their Warden do anything and have the party like them no matter what, they can spam them with gifts.  If they want more immersive and 'real' interaction then they won't abuse the gift system, keeping to key gifts.

Modifié par Curlain, 01 mai 2012 - 10:07 .

[Wulfram]

I think only having one romance of a compatible orientation is annoying. Particularly if you don't really like the available potential LI. Having everyone be bi seems an efficient way to avoid that, but I'm not committed to it.

[Dakota Strider]

DAO had the right idea with the gift system. The more gifts you gave, the less affect they had. However, they did not go far enough, because with the large number of gifts available in the game, it the "value" of each gift should have been smaller, except for the "unique" item, meant for each character.

Also, in old school rpg, you are expected to divide the loot amongst your henchmen/companions. Not just giving out armor and weapons. So, the many different little gifts you find, and give to various party members, could be thought of as paying their wages, as you are giving them things they value from the loot you find.

[Nighteye2]

David Gaider wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
You don't have to show them completely naked during the scenes and getting all raunchy though to really make it look more adult. I'm saying look because it just looks PG-13. But it definitely gives off an aura of being a mature moment.

Really, all that would need to be done -- for me personally anyway -- is just show the characters undressing in a scene tailored to their personalities, where we can see more of their skin in the process.

Ummm... yeah.

What you're describing is not simpler, it's actually more difficult. That's not clothing they're wearing. It's part of their model. So they can't "undress", or even start to. It would actually be more complex to show a model disrobing than it would to simply show them naked.

And despite the fact that some people seem to think we should just go ahead and show nudity, or that casual nudity is somehow more "adult" (or that it should simply be de rigeur in dark fantasy), I don't think we'd really be missing much by not having sex scenes at all (or the "afterglow" talk). At the very least, I wouldn't have to listen to people moan about how there's not enough skin, how they wanted different variations and positions, etc. etc. Frankly, such talk is more embarassing to listen to than interesting.

This doesn't mean they won't be there, as my opinion isn't the only one that matters, but my preference would be to have the "culmination" scene of a romance vary according to the character. Sexual depictions are fine for sexual characters (like, say, Isabela)... but even then if that leads to people going on about how they needed to see Isabela's ****** or Anders' ass in order for it to be a "real" or "adult" romance... then I'd just rather not contribute to it. And I think that's all I'll say about that.

Just one more question on that: what's wrong with following Hollywood's lead in depicting sex scenes? Especially considering the trend towards a more cinematic approach...:innocent: