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[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

RE: BRUSHING HAIR, WISTFUL GLANCES, ETC, THERE'S ANOTHER LIMITATION OF CURRENT CHARACTER MODELING FOR YOU: HAIR AND FACIAL MODELS AREN'T GENERALLY ADVANCED ENOUGH TO DO IT. PROBABLY A BIG PART OF WHY ROMANCE IN GAMES TENDS NOT TO WORK.

[the_one_54321]

Avejajed wrote...
I don't mind there not being nudity- but I'd love to see my LI in less than full armor right after they have sex with my character.

"Why did you put your cloths back on? I'm not done with you yet." 

[BubbleDncr]

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

RE: BRUSHING HAIR, WISTFUL GLANCES, ETC, THERE'S ANOTHER LIMITATION OF CURRENT CHARACTER MODELING FOR YOU: HAIR AND FACIAL MODELS AREN'T GENERALLY ADVANCED ENOUGH TO DO IT. PROBABLY A BIG PART OF WHY ROMANCE IN GAMES TENDS NOT TO WORK.

Not sure why you're typing in all caps, but ME3 had wistful glances and such. DON'T WATCH THE VIDEO IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS, but here's a non-sex romance scene from ME3:

If DA3 romance scenes are not on par with that in quality, I will be sad.

Modifié par BubbleDncr, 24 avril 2012 - 11:58 .

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

BubbleDncr wrote...

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

RE: BRUSHING HAIR, WISTFUL GLANCES, ETC, THERE'S ANOTHER LIMITATION OF CURRENT CHARACTER MODELING FOR YOU: HAIR AND FACIAL MODELS AREN'T GENERALLY ADVANCED ENOUGH TO DO IT. PROBABLY A BIG PART OF WHY ROMANCE IN GAMES TENDS NOT TO WORK.

Not sure why you're typing in all caps, but ME3 had wistful glances and such. DON'T WATCH THE VIDEO IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS, but here's a non-sex romance scene from ME3:

If DA3 romance scenes are par with that in quality, I will be sad.

SORRY, I MEANT TO SAY "DO IT WELL." GENERALLY, UNLESS YOU'RE VALVE, VOICE ACTORS HAVE TO PICK UP A LOT OF SLACK FROM THE ANIMATION QUALITY ON THIS SORT OF THING. THE HUMAN BRAIN IS WIRED TO RECOGNIZE FACIAL EXPRESSIONS, AND CAN TELL WHEN SOMETHING IS OFF.

[slyborg]

BubbleDncr wrote...

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

RE: BRUSHING HAIR, WISTFUL GLANCES, ETC, THERE'S ANOTHER LIMITATION OF CURRENT CHARACTER MODELING FOR YOU: HAIR AND FACIAL MODELS AREN'T GENERALLY ADVANCED ENOUGH TO DO IT. PROBABLY A BIG PART OF WHY ROMANCE IN GAMES TENDS NOT TO WORK.

Not sure why you're typing in all caps, but ME3 had wistful glances and such. DON'T WATCH THE VIDEO IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS, but here's a non-sex romance scene from ME3:

If DA3 romance scenes are not on par with that in quality, I will be sad.

This. I thought the romance aspects were well done. You could talk to your LI a lot more than in DA2 and there was some bit of affection shown. Also, caps lock is not your friend Milk, disable it.

[Maria Caliban]

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

THE HUMAN BRAIN IS WIRED TO RECOGNIZE FACIAL EXPRESSIONS, AND CAN TELL WHEN SOMETHING IS OFF.

The human brain is wired to recognize facial expressions... and doesn't care if something is off.



The above icon looks almost nothing like a human face, but you know that it's happy. Another example?

D:

Your brain is reading anguish in two lines and two dots. Another example?



That looks almost nothing like a human face yet your brain can un-see that expression.

[Cantina]

David Gaider wrote...

So... you played one romance, didn't like it, and therefore all the romances were "slapped together and assumed to be good enough"? So we should do it better.

There's some good feedback in there, but... gosh. It's just a little hard to find it persuasive amidst all the rest. Sorry you didn't like it, at any rate.

Why Hello Mr. Gaider! Thanks for popping in!

My feedback was not meant as an insult, I know your job is not easy and you all try your hardest.

What I am saying is I used Anders romance as an example and picked it apart by showing what I viewed as bad flaws. My hope is that by bringing these issues forward will allow other players to comment on how they felt about whichever romance, they chose and if they found flaws.

When I go back in Origins and romance let us say, Alistair, I actually felt it was a romance. You did a lovely job smoothing it across the game. However, in Dragon Age 2 my romance with Anders felt disconnected and all over the place. It just did not have the same feel of being in a relationship. I think cutting out interacting with your romance whenever you so chose led to that disconnecting feeling.

Not saying I hated the Anders romance, I did like parts of it, but I just felt it could have been done better.

[The dead fish]

Skin please, I am an adult not a child. This one area I am completely baffled about when it comes to Bioware. They can show a Broodmother with full view of breasts and NPCs or companions can talk about very dirty
things but when it comes to the intimate night, it plays out like an Amish porn movie.

Okay, I laughed. This is our Bioware. Makes no sense sometimes. They are even able to make a romantic scene with two women in the shower, but with their underwear. The first one, it's worse, because actually she took a shower with her underwear. * facepalm *

Yeah no, do not worry,  they didn't think that a shower scene with underwear would be laughable, and didn't tell to themself : " Well, maybe we should do something else if we keep underwear... "

Modifié par Sylvianus, 25 avril 2012 - 01:44 .

[wsandista]

Avejajed wrote...

I don't mind there not being nudity- but I'd love to see my LI in less than full armor right after they have sex with my character.

They were wearing it during the sex, say what you want about Isabela but the lady always uses protection.
But yeah it was really awkward just like how in Orgins my Warden was wearing heavy armor to sleep in the Leliana after sex talk, that can't be too comfortable.

[Sidney]

wsandista wrote...

That is one of my main problems with DA2, I think it results because none of the companions are dynamic characters, unlike in Origins where the majority can be(including all the romances). It just made the relationships(friendships as well as romances) seem to be more personal when companions evolve during the course of the story.

Not sure how much evolving you want. All the DA2 characters change and shift. Not that the DAO types don't but you are selling DA2 short on that front - very badly. I know the scorched earth approach to DA2 is the hip thing but it is wrong.

DA2 upgraded the romance situation a great deal because in DAO you could blow through the whole romance option in very rapid fashion - if you hit the Mage Tower first thing after Lothering you could actually "complete" the Morrigan romance in one conversation. The pacing was off because, well, there was no pacing.

[The Sarendoctrinator]

I actually liked DA2's romances more than DAO's. Not saying one was done better than the other because I think they're all good quality, but I much preferred DA2's characters... and by extension, their romances. Anders' friendship path was my favorite, and I didn't have a problem with any part of it.

As for more skin showing in romance scenes, I'd rather not. It doesn't really bother me, but it isn't something I enjoy watching. I like scenes that are more focused on the emotional aspect of romance rather than the physical. It's enough for me to know that these characters I created got some action in the span of ten years. I don't need to see it happen.

[Sidney]

wsandista wrote...

Avejajed wrote...

I don't mind there not being nudity- but I'd love to see my LI in less than full armor right after they have sex with my character.

They were wearing it during the sex, say what you want about Isabela but the lady always uses protection.
But yeah it was really awkward just like how in Orgins my Warden was wearing heavy armor to sleep in the Leliana after sex talk, that can't be too comfortable.

After the "blowback" on ME1 they went goofy with this stuff. I'm not looking for porn but ME1 had a sex scene that didn't feel totally juvenile. OK, fine maybe the EA overlords don't want bad press but instead of showing full undies use camera work not not show any naughty bits or something but at least let us think people are not still dressed.

[wsandista]

Sidney wrote...

wsandista wrote...

That is one of my main problems with DA2, I think it results because none of the companions are dynamic characters, unlike in Origins where the majority can be(including all the romances). It just made the relationships(friendships as well as romances) seem to be more personal when companions evolve during the course of the story.

Not sure how much evolving you want. All the DA2 characters change and shift. Not that the DAO types don't but you are selling DA2 short on that front - very badly. I know the scorched earth approach to DA2 is the hip thing but it is wrong.

DA2 upgraded the romance situation a great deal because in DAO you could blow through the whole romance option in very rapid fashion - if you hit the Mage Tower first thing after Lothering you could actually "complete" the Morrigan romance in one conversation. The pacing was off because, well, there was no pacing.

DAO you had a much more non-linear game so pacing was much different than in DA2 which had very clear spaces in the timeline. So it is much easier to spaceout the romances using DA2's acts than the non-linear wandering in DAO. It also provides a good way to gradually make the characters change their minds since they have a seemingly longer time to expierence and process other's worldviews, instead of rushing to stop the apocalypse.

As for evolution of characters I want to see them grow through their experiences. I don't think that I was being unfair to DA2 by saying that the characters are more static than the DAO crowd, that's merely an observation/opinion. I also think that the companions in DA2 were as a whole much more lackluster than in DAO, but that doesn't mean that they're badly written, and Varric even beats out most of the DAO companions in my book. More options to counter companions beliefs, preferably with quests that can directly challenge them would be great.

[brushyourteeth]

This is barely on-topic, but does anyone know if there's anywhere I can get some of the underwear from DAII? I would absolutely buy it!

[wsandista]

brushyourteeth wrote...

This is barely on-topic, but does anyone know if there's anywhere I can get some of the underwear from DAII? I would absolutely buy it!

Male or Female?

[nightscrawl]

Cantina wrote...

However, in Dragon Age 2 my romance with Anders felt disconnected and all over the place. It just did not have the same feel of being in a relationship. I think cutting out interacting with your romance whenever you so chose led to that disconnecting feeling.

Not saying I hated the Anders romance, I did like parts of it, but I just felt it could have been done better.

To be honest, all of the romances felt like that in one way or another. Part of it has to do with time jumps, and part of it has to do with the limitations on where and when you could converse with your companions.

As they stated at PAX East, they're working on it...

I think looking at the reactions to the two games, I think a lot, some players, felt they that didn't have agency over their interactions with the followers; because there was less of them and because we had this feature that "told you" when they had new dialogue. People felt like they weren't responsible for initiating that dialogue. So, OK, cool. Hearing that, it's like "OK, agency is important." So I think what we'd like to do is bring some of that interaction back into just talking to them at the camp, giving your follower a kiss if you want, and asking them questions; but also still having as much of the character arc growth for each follower that we got, that we did get in DA2. I think that there is actually a middle ground. And I just want to give the players a little bit more of a feeling that they are the ones in charge of their relationship.

I think what David states there will help tremendously with helping the romances flow more naturally.

That said, I think there were also some issues with how the friendship/rivalry system worked with the romances, and the "all or nothing" approach they took. For example, I found Fenris rivalry to be too mercurial. We would be having a fine conversation about something or other, then a particular issues comes up where the game checks for friendship or rivalry, and he responds accordingly, no matter how the previous five minutes of dialogue was going. It left my head spinning.

I'll add though that if you are a huge fan of Anders, you are doing yourself a disservice if you don't do a rivalmance with him. It's an interesting experience, though that has some issues as well, mainly stemming from the fact that his rivalry primarily works off of the assumption that you are against mages, and that will color all of the conversations that you have. The key conversation I had with him was particularly amusing:
Hawke: Here have this key to the estate
Anders: *Responds angrily referencing mages being hauled away*
Hawke (diplomatic option): I love you! -- I ended up reloading here and picking the aggressive response, so the conversation flowed better
Anders: Grrrr *more angry response*

It was absurd.

However, while I think that the F/R system was great for letting us experience more than one side of our companions, it needs to be fine tuned to account for varrying reasons two people might disagree, but still like and be respectful one one another.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 25 avril 2012 - 03:38 .

[brushyourteeth]

wsandista wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

This is barely on-topic, but does anyone know if there's anywhere I can get some of the underwear from DAII? I would absolutely buy it!

Male or Female?

Yes. Either. Both!

[Allan Schumacher]

I've actually always preferred the fade to black. I don't know why but I always feel weird watching it play out haha.

Maybe it harkens back to the less acutely visual days of BG2 and PST.

[Malsumis]

Actually, romances need to be cut back. Too many choices which spread the development budget too thin across all characters, or impact other areas of development.

As with all things, quality over quantity.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I've actually always preferred the fade to black. I don't know why but I always feel weird watching it play out haha.

As do I. Anything else just seems awkward. And it's resources and time better spent elsewhere.

[Allan Schumacher]

Well, this thread may indicate that it's not actually a waste of resources haha.

LI definitely seem to be a staple expectation for BioWare games now and many people seem to love it.

[Ponendus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I've actually always preferred the fade to black. I don't know why but I always feel weird watching it play out haha.

Maybe it harkens back to the less acutely visual days of BG2 and PST.

I do agree there is some awkwardness to watching it play out. There are tasteful ways to do it though I think. Fade to black is in some ways trying to say its 'naughty' or 'should be hidden'. The way DAO was a little laughable I admit. I think there is a middle ground somewhere though. ME3 did a pretty good job I think. It faded to black, but after a certain point.

[Ponendus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Well, this thread may indicate that it's not actually a waste of resources haha.

LI definitely seem to be a staple expectation for BioWare games now and many people seem to love it.

It is, and they do don't they? I can't understand why other developers haven't followed BioWare's lead on this. It seems there is an audience of people who will just play for the romances/story. The ones that play for all the other reasons seem to enjoy it as enhancing the roleplay experience (myself included in this bunch). What is there to lose? 

[Dave of Canada]

I don't mind fade-to-black or sexings because ultimately it falls upon how it's done and presented, I don't like the weird inbetween which we're presented with in the Dragon Age games for example. I'd rather enjoy one side or the other, Mass Effect 1 style for the "romance" scenes or Jade Empire for the fade-to-black.

Don't care much either how sex ultimately became the defining part of the romance in Dragon Age 2, where you can't turn the character down but still love them. Playing the celibate Chantry-fanatic Human Noble or playing hard to get with Morrigan were both entertaining playthroughs.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

LI definitely seem to be a staple expectation for BioWare games now and many people seem to love it.

Sometimes to a scary degree.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 avril 2012 - 07:30 .

[Maria Caliban]

Skyrim, The Witcher, Kingdoms of Amalur, Fable, and Deus Ex all have romances. They don't have BioWare-style romances, but they're not BioWare-style games.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

LI definitely seem to be a staple expectation for BioWare games now and many people seem to love it.

Sometimes to a scary degree.

It's only scary because it+++++++++++++++.0000

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 25 avril 2012 - 07:30 .