649 réponses à ce sujet

[Sutekh]

fchopin wrote...

If they make the romances using the opposite way of how they were done in DA2 it would be nice.

The DA2 way of how romances were done is about the worst i have ever played.

What would be the opposite way? Everyone is asexual, there's no romance to speak of?

[fchopin]

Sutekh wrote...

fchopin wrote...

If they make the romances using the opposite way of how they were done in DA2 it would be nice.

The DA2 way of how romances were done is about the worst i have ever played.

What would be the opposite way? Everyone is asexual, there's no romance to speak of?

NPC's have to be set characters, not depending on which gender we pick for our character.
 
We should be able to talk with companions at any time if we are not in combat or some other important part that Bioware is telling us the story.
 
If they wish companions to have a set place to stay that is fine as long as we can talk to them.
 
The dialogue we choose should have some consequence on the reaction we get from companions or it becomes irrelevant.
 
And the most important is we need to see the full text of what our character will say.

[Cantina]

nightscrawl wrote...

Cantina wrote...

Exactly. I was well, pissed to say the least finding out that if you play a male Hawke you find out about Anders and Karl. If you choose to play a female Hawke he does not tell you. It makes it feel as though it never happened, but it did happen.

...

I am fine with female and male romances being written differently. But when you remove important dialogue and then treat the female Hawke like a delicate flower just makes the romance tasteless.

How do we know it happened if he doesn't tell us?

I can infer a lot of things. From Fenris's extreme reaction ("Shut your mouth Danarius!") when Danarius says "He's quite talented, isn't he? (chuckle)," I have inferred the Danarius raped him at some point, but that is never mentioned or suggested by Fenris himself or anyone else, in all the vast amount of dialogue that Fenris has with both male and female Hawke, both as friend/rival and romance.

So too I can say that nothing of the kind is ever hinted at with female Hawke as friend/rival or romance about, from, or by Anders. E V E R.

Really, the whole tone of a m/m Anders romance is completely different than m/f, which I did not find to be the case with Fenris m/m vs m/f. I found his whole thing about breaking my (female) heart a bit melodramatic if you flirt with him in Act 1, so I never do that. It also seemed ridiculous to me that he would even carry on so when we only just met, and my telling him he's hot really doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. On the other hand, if playng a male, you get the sobering story about Karl, some well placed grief over killing him (sadly lacking in the female version), and a cute interested smile in response to your own interest in him.

For pure unadulterated sap, sure, do a female friendmance. For a relief from all that, do a male friendmance. The difference is astounding.

I never played a male in Dragon Age2 much less do the male Anders romance. I am aware of it do to watching several videos on Youtube about it.

As I said, I do not mind a slight switch of dialogue between a female and male romance. However, when it comes to Anders romance between a female and male, the difference is astounding. No offense to Helper, but the dialogue for the female comes off like a cheesy soap opera.

I tend to flirt with the Anders the first time it comes up, at least that is one dialogue sentence I felt was done right. (Yes, I am odd, I find Anders to just as sexy in his spirit form).

Then after that, a tidal wave of crap comes at you. I do not like Anders telling me he will break my heart as if I am some delicate dainty flower. Sorry but no relationship out there is perfect and adding this line in just makes it worse, all its doing is setting things up for it to happen and not just let the relationship flow.

You then have the line “This will be a disaster, but I can’t live without it.”
Again, setting it up to fail before it gets started.

How about this “romantic line” “If your with me, will be hunted, hated, the whole world will be against us.” (Rubs temples) First of all this line should not be in here. Second if you are playing a mage, this should be already apparent, especially do to your life before Kirkwall. Third if you are not a mage, you should already be aware of the risks, do to your life before Kirkwall.


(No offense here) Sure, some teen girl players out there might squeal at how sweet and romantic this all is, but for an adult romance, it just comes off as if I am back in high school. I know Alistair and Anders are two different characters, but at least Alistair did not shove tasteless lines down the female Warden’s throat every second the dialogue was going.

*******************************************************************************

As for the female Hawke knowing about Anders romance with Karl. If you managed to unlock the chance to know this bit about Anders past, you should be able to know no matter if your male or female.

The reason I mention this is due to Helper's comments.

http://desmond.image...jpg&res=landing

Modifié par Cantina, 02 mai 2012 - 10:50 .

[nightscrawl]

Cantina wrote...

The reason I mention this is due to Helper's comments.

<snip>

Uh... wow, that was certainly enlightening.

I'm conflicted now. While that seems to show her intent when writing that character, it's not reflected in the game itself in the way they chose to differentiate the male and female romance dialogue. Also, even when considering Anders as gay (which I do on my male Hawke plays), to me that has no bearing on his merger with Justice. Even if there is "nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice" doesn't mean it's sexual intimacy.

You also have to consider that Hawke never knew Anders as he was in DAA, unlike us players. Anders has changed, both from his merger with Justice as well as his experience since he first joined the Wardens. Hawke has never known Anders as anything other than he is now, which is sometimes funny and charming, but usually darkly serious, passionate, and determined. Once in a while the old Anders shines through, but those moments are rare and precious indeed. Sadly. Most of what Anders is, to Hawke, is also Justice.

I don't know... it reminds me of slash fanfic with characters like Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson, or Capt. Kirk and Spock. Like there can't be two men who are very close, love each other even, without there being more.

Additionally, her lines about his "male seeming friend" seems to suggest that Anders, from Awakening onward, looked at Justice as "a man," and not merely a spirit inhabiting a man's body. I grant you that I think of Justice that way myself, from the moment we met him in the fade in DAA. Some of that has to do with how he was portrayed in the fade (as a male armored figure with a male voice), and the constant association with him afterward inhabiting Kristoff's body. But I'm just a muggle, that's not to say that Anders, being a mage, also sees Justice as such.

It's hard to know whether these assumptions are just what Jennifer took away from Awakening herself, or if they were developed in talking to David (who wrote Anders in DAA).

That was extremely interesting though, thanks for posting that. I remain conflicted still XD.


--- some SPOLIERS for the end of DA2 --- (damn these no spoiler forums... )

Again, setting it up to fail before it gets started.

While I do think that Anders is a bit melodramatic at times, this really does set up his personality nicely in DA2. It's really perfect with a rival romance as well. Poor Anders, he has these thoughts and feelings about Hawke, some of them may even conflict with his greater mission of mage freedom, but he just can't help it. This is why the rival Anders is just so delicious (romance or not). At the end, he clearly wants to die, feeling himself slipping farther and farther away. A lot of his "doom and gloom" lines set that up quite nicely.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 02 mai 2012 - 11:40 .

[Sutekh]

fchopin wrote...

NPC's have to be set characters, not depending on which gender we pick for our character.
 
We should be able to talk with companions at any time if we are not in combat or some other important part that Bioware is telling us the story.
 
If they wish companions to have a set place to stay that is fine as long as we can talk to them.
 
The dialogue we choose should have some consequence on the reaction we get from companions or it becomes irrelevant.
 
And the most important is we need to see the full text of what our character will say.

Apart from you first point, none of those are related to romance specifically. I completely agree with 2 and 3. 4 puzzles me, since there are consequences. 5 has nothing to do with romance.

As for the first, they are set characters. The only one who could be considered changed by the PC's gender is Anders (and then again, it's debatable). Isabela will always be attracted to both men and women; she already was in DAO. Fenris and Merrill never speak about their sexual orientation, because it's never relevant to their characterization or the plot. If their sexuality was fixed, it would change absolutely nothing. Sebastian is always straight. Varric loves Bianca. Aveline loves Donnic. Tallis loves the Qun. All the other NPCs live their life unchanged. There's nothing fluctuant about them due to PC gender.

[whykikyouwhy]

Cantina wrote...

Then after that, a tidal wave of crap comes at you. I do not like Anders telling me he will break my heart as if I am some delicate dainty flower. Sorry but no relationship out there is perfect and adding this line in just makes it worse, all its doing is setting things up for it to happen and not just let the relationship flow.

You then have the line “This will be a disaster, but I can’t live without it.”
Again, setting it up to fail before it gets started.

How about this “romantic line” “If your with me, will be hunted, hated, the whole world will be against us.” (Rubs temples) First of all this line should not be in here. Second if you are playing a mage, this should be already apparent, especially do to your life before Kirkwall. Third if you are not a mage, you should already be aware of the risks, do to your life before Kirkwall.


(No offense here) Sure, some teen girl players out there might squeal at how sweet and romantic this all is, but for an adult romance, it just comes off as if I am back in high school. I know Alistair and Anders are two different characters, but at least Alistair did not shove tasteless lines down the female Warden’s throat every second the dialogue was going.

But here you get to the crux of things - how a romance narrative resonates with a player will be based on the individual. Players who pursue the romance options in the games are looking for different things. For some, it's merely about the achievement. For others, it's about being involved and immersed in the essence of romance itself. What "romance" means to one person will not necessarily be the same to another.

So Anders' rather poetic lines and shades of melodrama aren't necessarily "teen" matters - they're indicative of a romantic style. Something almost classical really, in how romances are portrayed in literature. That works for some people (including adults). Anders is, in many ways, a tortured soul, bound  and tormented both by his decision to merge with Justice, and his identity as a mage. It makes sense to me that he might be a bit more expressive and emotional about matters.

As for his lines being "tasteless" - well, again, this hearkens to personal preference. So too, while I haven't done a playthrough where Hawke romanced him, in seeing clips of that arc, I never heard the line about breaking Hawke's heart as a sort of "dainty flower" dig. I heard it is as concern - perhaps stemming from Anders' feeling that his own heart had been broken in the past.

I don't want to argue the finer points of Anders as a character and all of his torment and passion (he's got a whole appreciation thread for that), but I do think that in general, romances are going to be matters of taste and preference. I see/hear Anders' dialogue as befitting his personality, just as I see/hear Merrill's comments (in a romance) as fitting her, and so forth with the other companions. I may not be fond of some of those arcs - they may make me smirk wryly, but I can appreciate how they add to the depth of the individual characters. 

[Kidd]

Fandango9641 wrote...

That’s a fair question (I guess I’m not being all that clear after all). To confirm, I’m not a fan of the idea that every single romanceable party member should reasonably be considered a romantic option for a single protagonist.

Idea for DA3 romances:
- Male human mage, only romanceable by pro-templar rogues
- Male dwarf rogue , only romanceable by male humans
- Female elf warrior, only romanceable by elven blood mages
- Female kossith warrior, only romanceable by female dwarves

There's four quite varied LIs with distinct tastes and restrictions on who they could hook up with. Does this sound good to you? Why does it? Why does it not? Please share your thoughts =)

[Cantina]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Cantina wrote...

Then after that, a tidal wave of crap comes at you. I do not like Anders telling me he will break my heart as if I am some delicate dainty flower. Sorry but no relationship out there is perfect and adding this line in just makes it worse, all its doing is setting things up for it to happen and not just let the relationship flow.

You then have the line “This will be a disaster, but I can’t live without it.”
Again, setting it up to fail before it gets started.

How about this “romantic line” “If your with me, will be hunted, hated, the whole world will be against us.” (Rubs temples) First of all this line should not be in here. Second if you are playing a mage, this should be already apparent, especially do to your life before Kirkwall. Third if you are not a mage, you should already be aware of the risks, do to your life before Kirkwall.


(No offense here) Sure, some teen girl players out there might squeal at how sweet and romantic this all is, but for an adult romance, it just comes off as if I am back in high school. I know Alistair and Anders are two different characters, but at least Alistair did not shove tasteless lines down the female Warden’s throat every second the dialogue was going.

But here you get to the crux of things - how a romance narrative resonates with a player will be based on the individual. Players who pursue the romance options in the games are looking for different things. For some, it's merely about the achievement. For others, it's about being involved and immersed in the essence of romance itself. What "romance" means to one person will not necessarily be the same to another.

So Anders' rather poetic lines and shades of melodrama aren't necessarily "teen" matters - they're indicative of a romantic style. Something almost classical really, in how romances are portrayed in literature. That works for some people (including adults). Anders is, in many ways, a tortured soul, bound  and tormented both by his decision to merge with Justice, and his identity as a mage. It makes sense to me that he might be a bit more expressive and emotional about matters.

As for his lines being "tasteless" - well, again, this hearkens to personal preference. So too, while I haven't done a playthrough where Hawke romanced him, in seeing clips of that arc, I never heard the line about breaking Hawke's heart as a sort of "dainty flower" dig. I heard it is as concern - perhaps stemming from Anders' feeling that his own heart had been broken in the past.

I don't want to argue the finer points of Anders as a character and all of his torment and passion (he's got a whole appreciation thread for that), but I do think that in general, romances are going to be matters of taste and preference. I see/hear Anders' dialogue as befitting his personality, just as I see/hear Merrill's comments (in a romance) as fitting her, and so forth with the other companions. I may not be fond of some of those arcs - they may make me smirk wryly, but I can appreciate how they add to the depth of the individual characters. 

Hmm, that is an interesting perspective I have not considered. Still it does not remove the conflict of how Anders “shoves” these doom and gloom lines down the female Hawke were, as the male Hawke does not get them. I used the “dainty flower” analogy because it comes off as if female(s) are incapable of making their own choices and must be treated with a sense of protection. I for one view Hawke as a woman who can take care of herself. Considering who she has chosen to be involved with the risks should be obvious as with any relationship but with Anders those risks are slightly amplified. Seeing the obvious and then adding the dialogue on top of it is too much. I can handle maybe a line here or there, but a constant need to do it repeatedly is too much. I suppose it has to do with my own personality, I don’t like having things drilled in my head like I’m a an idiot. <shrugs>

[Cantina]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

That’s a fair question (I guess I’m not being all that clear after all). To confirm, I’m not a fan of the idea that every single romanceable party member should reasonably be considered a romantic option for a single protagonist.

Idea for DA3 romances:
- Male human mage, only romanceable by pro-templar rogues
- Male dwarf rogue , only romanceable by male humans
- Female elf warrior, only romanceable by elven blood mages
- Female kossith warrior, only romanceable by female dwarves

There's four quite varied LIs with distinct tastes and restrictions on who they could hook up with. Does this sound good to you? Why does it? Why does it not? Please share your thoughts =)

I have expressed something similar. I think there should be more of a choices and consequences system when it comes to romances. Something like you mentioned above, but with a little more flexibility. Granted I cannot see a female human romancing a dwarf, that is just uh disturbing.

However lets say for example, there is a companion who hates Templars. So you choose to play a Templar. Well the opportunity for you to romance that companion is no longer available to you, even if you redo your feats etcs.

OR

Your companion dislikes mages. If you chose to play a mage this companion is no longer an option for a romance.


I do like having different companions to romance, but those companions should have limitations on if there willing to romance you. If you don't allow limitations then the companion you are romancing comes off as hypocrite.

Companion: "Oh I hate mages!"
<romances a mage>
"All mages need to die!"

See my point?

Having choices in a game is nice, gives the player an opportunity to make their own story. But even then there are boundaries and I see no reason why those boundaries cannot be implemented in the romance department too.

Modifié par Cantina, 02 mai 2012 - 12:34 .

[Curlain]

nightscrawl wrote...

...

IMO one of the great benefits that Bioware has about this issue is that because it is their fictional world, they can make the social norms whatever they wish. If Bioware is a progressive company, being in a progressive country, and want to make all LI available to everyone regardless of gender they have the freedom to do so because there is not a precedent in their world regarding it.

...

This is actually something I think BioWare needs to devote more attention to generally in future games etc set in Thedas.  What exactly are the social norms and values that exist in the Dragon Age lands, and not just in terms of views on sexuality.  There seems in both DA:O and DA2 a mix-and-match of modern and medieval/ancient world  values and ideals, which in itself isn't a problem as this can and does exist in many fantasy worlds, but there is little development or explination of exactly how this works out in say Ferelden society.  Which values and norms apply where and how etc.  This shows up particularly well in terms of Thedasian views on sexaulity, which is not really gone into much at all, despite romances bring a strong factor in the game.  This differs from other RPG worlds where you do get a real sense often playing for a while of the social norms and values of the society the PC opperates in (even if you don't agree with many of them, as is the case with the Witcher society), nor clearly would ever character need to subscribe to the generally held values either.

So something I would think would aid immersion would be for BioWare to fully develop and expand on the social norms and values that do opperate in the societies of Thedas more fully, in terms of class, gender, race, sexuality etc.

Modifié par Curlain, 02 mai 2012 - 12:52 .

[erilben]

Cantina wrote...

Hmm, that is an interesting perspective I have not considered. Still it does not remove the conflict of how Anders “shoves” these doom and gloom lines down the female Hawke were, as the male Hawke does not get them. I used the “dainty flower” analogy because it comes off as if female(s) are incapable of making their own choices and must be treated with a sense of protection. I for one view Hawke as a woman who can take care of herself. Considering who she has chosen to be involved with the risks should be obvious as with any relationship but with Anders those risks are slightly amplified. Seeing the obvious and then adding the dialogue on top of it is too much. I can handle maybe a line here or there, but a constant need to do it repeatedly is too much. I suppose it has to do with my own personality, I don’t like having things drilled in my head like I’m a an idiot. <shrugs>

I thought what happens in the male friendship romance with Anders was worse. While it's true all those "I will break your heart" dialog is removed from the initial conversations, it doesn't make sense. The rest of the romance depends on Anders saying that. After the first two conversations, the dialog is almost the exact same for both male and female. Even up to the point where Anders will act like he told male Hawke all that "I will break your heart!!" stuff. Anders will still say in the kiss converstation he tried to hold back for 3 years, and something like "I will come to you tonight if your door is open. If not , I know you took my warnings at last". That doesn't make any sense with male Hawke. He doesn't do anyhing of the sort before this that would count as a "warning" to male Hawke before this. It's really strange for him to just start talking like that all of a sudden.

The rest of the romance goes on like this. Like late into the romance, Anders still tells male Hawke "I told you I would break your heart". Except from what you see, Anders never said that.

Modifié par erilben, 02 mai 2012 - 12:54 .

[AkiKishi]

erilben wrote...

Cantina wrote...

Hmm, that is an interesting perspective I have not considered. Still it does not remove the conflict of how Anders “shoves” these doom and gloom lines down the female Hawke were, as the male Hawke does not get them. I used the “dainty flower” analogy because it comes off as if female(s) are incapable of making their own choices and must be treated with a sense of protection. I for one view Hawke as a woman who can take care of herself. Considering who she has chosen to be involved with the risks should be obvious as with any relationship but with Anders those risks are slightly amplified. Seeing the obvious and then adding the dialogue on top of it is too much. I can handle maybe a line here or there, but a constant need to do it repeatedly is too much. I suppose it has to do with my own personality, I don’t like having things drilled in my head like I’m a an idiot. <shrugs>

I thought what happens in the male friendship romance with Anders was worse. While it's true all those "I will break your heart" dialog is removed from the initial conversations, it doesn't make sense. The rest of the romance depends on Anders saying that. After the first two conversations, the dialog is almost the exact same for both male and female. Even up to the point where Anders will act like he told male Hawke all that "I will break your heart!!" stuff. Anders will still say in the kiss converstation he tried to hold back for 3 years, and something like "I will come to you tonight if your door is open. If not , I know you took my warnings at last". That doesn't make any sense with male Hawke. He doesn't do anyhing of the sort before this that would count as a "warning" to male Hawke before this. It's really strange for him to just start talking like that all of a sudden.

The rest of the romance goes on like this. Like late into the romance, Anders still tells male Hawke "I told you I would break your heart". Except from what you see, Anders never said that.

I've never actually played a romance from both sides. But that confirms my other reason for not liking the everyone is bi thing.

[Kidd]

Cantina wrote...

However lets say for example, there is a companion who hates Templars. So you choose to play a Templar. Well the opportunity for you to romance that companion is no longer available to you, even if you redo your feats etcs.

I agree with basing romances on views (that's really how both friendmancing and rivalmancing works in DA2 - if you don't have certain opinions you will not reach a romanceable state), hence I like your example here. It was pretty much the basis I used once to show how much I disliked how Morrigan was straight.

My female human mage who disliked the Circle and abhored the Chantry didn't particularly have any one she fit with, aside from Zevran who really didn't so much agree with her as he didn't care. Had Morrigan been bisexual, this character of mine could've had a romance I wanted. I suppose had Leliana had a "rivalmance," she might have been fitting as well. Doubt an Alistair rivalmance would have, but perhaps.

That's why I think the themes of a character are way, way more important than gender.
- Does my character think blood magic won't necessarily always lead to misery but can be used without leading to abominations, similar to the blood magic used by the Chantry? Said character fits with Merrill for sure, helping her out with her deeds.
- Does my character believe blood magic is inherently a mistake that should never be used? Said character fits with Merrill as well, trying to get the woman they love to stop putting herself in danger.
- Does my character not give a damn about blood magic one way or the other? I wouldn't say that character fits all too much with Merrill because they do not exist within the questions Merrill's character is about, and I'd never make such a character romance her.

That's far more important - at least to me - than whether or not my character is equipped with a snare or a spear.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 02 mai 2012 - 01:02 .

[Sutekh]

Cantina wrote...

Having choices in a game is nice, gives the player an opportunity to make their own story. But even then there are boundaries and I see no reason why those boundaries cannot be implemented in the romance department too. 

The problem with that is that restrictions are arbitrary, and so are the criteria they're based on. The minute restrictions are involved, writers impose their own views, and it can become a problem. A bit like censorship, actually (but only a bit). That's perfectly OK in the plot, because writers tell the story, but for something as personal as romance? Not so much.

Take your mage / mage hater example. On the surface, it kinda makes sense a mage hater wouldn't romance a mage. But by forbidding it, you remove the possibility for the player to explore that aspect. What if I want to try a Romeo and Juliet approach, for instance? A tragic romance? A relationship where people are so attracted to each others they eventually overcome their differences? Why would I have to submit to the writer's view that mage / anti-mage isn't possible, while I could have a very different opinion on the matter?

(This is just an example, btw, not arguing in favor of mage / anti-mage shipping)

By leaving it open, this remains possible. People who don't want to go there still can, by simply not engaging in any romance with this character.

[mesmerizedish]

Cantina wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

Cantina wrote...

Exactly. I was well, pissed to say the least finding out that if you play a male Hawke you find out about Anders and Karl. If you choose to play a female Hawke he does not tell you. It makes it feel as though it never happened, but it did happen.

...

I am fine with female and male romances being written differently. But when you remove important dialogue and then treat the female Hawke like a delicate flower just makes the romance tasteless.

How do we know it happened if he doesn't tell us?

I can infer a lot of things. From Fenris's extreme reaction ("Shut your mouth Danarius!") when Danarius says "He's quite talented, isn't he? (chuckle)," I have inferred the Danarius raped him at some point, but that is never mentioned or suggested by Fenris himself or anyone else, in all the vast amount of dialogue that Fenris has with both male and female Hawke, both as friend/rival and romance.

So too I can say that nothing of the kind is ever hinted at with female Hawke as friend/rival or romance about, from, or by Anders. E V E R.

Really, the whole tone of a m/m Anders romance is completely different than m/f, which I did not find to be the case with Fenris m/m vs m/f. I found his whole thing about breaking my (female) heart a bit melodramatic if you flirt with him in Act 1, so I never do that. It also seemed ridiculous to me that he would even carry on so when we only just met, and my telling him he's hot really doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. On the other hand, if playng a male, you get the sobering story about Karl, some well placed grief over killing him (sadly lacking in the female version), and a cute interested smile in response to your own interest in him.

For pure unadulterated sap, sure, do a female friendmance. For a relief from all that, do a male friendmance. The difference is astounding.

I never played a male in Dragon Age2 much less do the male Anders romance. I am aware of it do to watching several videos on Youtube about it.

As I said, I do not mind a slight switch of dialogue between a female and male romance. However, when it comes to Anders romance between a female and male, the difference is astounding. No offense to Helper, but the dialogue for the female comes off like a cheesy soap opera.

I tend to flirt with the Anders the first time it comes up, at least that is one dialogue sentence I felt was done right. (Yes, I am odd, I find Anders to just as sexy in his spirit form).

Then after that, a tidal wave of crap comes at you. I do not like Anders telling me he will break my heart as if I am some delicate dainty flower. Sorry but no relationship out there is perfect and adding this line in just makes it worse, all its doing is setting things up for it to happen and not just let the relationship flow.

You then have the line “This will be a disaster, but I can’t live without it.”
Again, setting it up to fail before it gets started.

How about this “romantic line” “If your with me, will be hunted, hated, the whole world will be against us.” (Rubs temples) First of all this line should not be in here. Second if you are playing a mage, this should be already apparent, especially do to your life before Kirkwall. Third if you are not a mage, you should already be aware of the risks, do to your life before Kirkwall.


(No offense here) Sure, some teen girl players out there might squeal at how sweet and romantic this all is, but for an adult romance, it just comes off as if I am back in high school. I know Alistair and Anders are two different characters, but at least Alistair did not shove tasteless lines down the female Warden’s throat every second the dialogue was going.

*******************************************************************************

As for the female Hawke knowing about Anders romance with Karl. If you managed to unlock the chance to know this bit about Anders past, you should be able to know no matter if your male or female.

The reason I mention this is due to Helper's comments.

http://desmond.image...jpg&res=landing

You're pretty clearly not insightful and knowledgable enough to appreciate Anders's romance.

[Cantina]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Cantina wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

Cantina wrote...

Exactly. I was well, pissed to say the least finding out that if you play a male Hawke you find out about Anders and Karl. If you choose to play a female Hawke he does not tell you. It makes it feel as though it never happened, but it did happen.

...

I am fine with female and male romances being written differently. But when you remove important dialogue and then treat the female Hawke like a delicate flower just makes the romance tasteless.

How do we know it happened if he doesn't tell us?

I can infer a lot of things. From Fenris's extreme reaction ("Shut your mouth Danarius!") when Danarius says "He's quite talented, isn't he? (chuckle)," I have inferred the Danarius raped him at some point, but that is never mentioned or suggested by Fenris himself or anyone else, in all the vast amount of dialogue that Fenris has with both male and female Hawke, both as friend/rival and romance.

So too I can say that nothing of the kind is ever hinted at with female Hawke as friend/rival or romance about, from, or by Anders. E V E R.

Really, the whole tone of a m/m Anders romance is completely different than m/f, which I did not find to be the case with Fenris m/m vs m/f. I found his whole thing about breaking my (female) heart a bit melodramatic if you flirt with him in Act 1, so I never do that. It also seemed ridiculous to me that he would even carry on so when we only just met, and my telling him he's hot really doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. On the other hand, if playng a male, you get the sobering story about Karl, some well placed grief over killing him (sadly lacking in the female version), and a cute interested smile in response to your own interest in him.

For pure unadulterated sap, sure, do a female friendmance. For a relief from all that, do a male friendmance. The difference is astounding.

I never played a male in Dragon Age2 much less do the male Anders romance. I am aware of it do to watching several videos on Youtube about it.

As I said, I do not mind a slight switch of dialogue between a female and male romance. However, when it comes to Anders romance between a female and male, the difference is astounding. No offense to Helper, but the dialogue for the female comes off like a cheesy soap opera.

I tend to flirt with the Anders the first time it comes up, at least that is one dialogue sentence I felt was done right. (Yes, I am odd, I find Anders to just as sexy in his spirit form).

Then after that, a tidal wave of crap comes at you. I do not like Anders telling me he will break my heart as if I am some delicate dainty flower. Sorry but no relationship out there is perfect and adding this line in just makes it worse, all its doing is setting things up for it to happen and not just let the relationship flow.

You then have the line “This will be a disaster, but I can’t live without it.”
Again, setting it up to fail before it gets started.

How about this “romantic line” “If your with me, will be hunted, hated, the whole world will be against us.” (Rubs temples) First of all this line should not be in here. Second if you are playing a mage, this should be already apparent, especially do to your life before Kirkwall. Third if you are not a mage, you should already be aware of the risks, do to your life before Kirkwall.


(No offense here) Sure, some teen girl players out there might squeal at how sweet and romantic this all is, but for an adult romance, it just comes off as if I am back in high school. I know Alistair and Anders are two different characters, but at least Alistair did not shove tasteless lines down the female Warden’s throat every second the dialogue was going.

*******************************************************************************

As for the female Hawke knowing about Anders romance with Karl. If you managed to unlock the chance to know this bit about Anders past, you should be able to know no matter if your male or female.

The reason I mention this is due to Helper's comments.

http://desmond.image...jpg&res=landing

You're pretty clearly not insightful and knowledgable enough to appreciate Anders's romance.

<laughs> Oh that is hilarious! I'm pointing out things that I view could have been done better, yet YOUR telling me I lack insight and knowledge.

Beleive me sugah, I enjoyed Anders romance, huge fan of him, that does not mean I need to agree with every word that was written for him.

[Cantina]

Sutekh wrote...

Cantina wrote...

Having choices in a game is nice, gives the player an opportunity to make their own story. But even then there are boundaries and I see no reason why those boundaries cannot be implemented in the romance department too. 

The problem with that is that restrictions are arbitrary, and so are the criteria they're based on. The minute restrictions are involved, writers impose their own views, and it can become a problem. A bit like censorship, actually (but only a bit). That's perfectly OK in the plot, because writers tell the story, but for something as personal as romance? Not so much.

Take your mage / mage hater example. On the surface, it kinda makes sense a mage hater wouldn't romance a mage. But by forbidding it, you remove the possibility for the player to explore that aspect. What if I want to try a Romeo and Juliet approach, for instance? A tragic romance? A relationship where people are so attracted to each others they eventually overcome their differences? Why would I have to submit to the writer's view that mage / anti-mage isn't possible, while I could have a very different opinion on the matter?

(This is just an example, btw, not arguing in favor of mage / anti-mage shipping)

By leaving it open, this remains possible. People who don't want to go there still can, by simply not engaging in any romance with this character.

Hmm, that is true. Still a little odd though. But if the person they romance changes their mind, would not their views on the subject change too. Seems like a very sensitive area for the developers to venture into. Maybe they are not against the idea of a consequence system, just becomes too complex to involve such a thing.

Never thought of it that way...interesting very interesting.

[Pasquale1234]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I find it odd that people continue to refer to LIs as bisexual, because I don't remember a single one of them ever labeling themselves as such.

I don't recall Aveline ever labeling herself as human or Fenris ever stating he was a man. I don't remember Morrigan or Alistiar ever saying they're straight either.

Yet no one ever brings up that element X isn't explicitly stated by the characters save when it comes to bisexuality.

We don't know whether any of those characters are transgendered, cisgendered, intersexed, or anything else, either.  We know only how they are presented in-game.

If you think sexual orientation refers only to apparent sexual behavior, then it may be fair to label Isabela as bisexual, because she tells us that she has sex with men and women.  If sexual orientation includes elements of affection and attraction, then for all we know, Aveline might be bisexual.  The fact that she's married two men does not mean that she is not attracted to women, and she never states her orientation.

On a given Merrill-romancing female Hawke playthrough, I could consider Merrill to be a lesbian since neither she nor the game provides me with any evidence that she is attracted to men.  For that matter, I could consider Merrill to be a lesbian on any playthrough, if I felt a need to label her.

MrsMime wrote...

Also, I thought you could get more of a feeling for the character's interest in you as well; when talking to them, whether at camp or out and about, their speech was often peppered with remarks that revealed their intentions. I also would have liked to see in DA2 something like what happened with Alistair, where he gives you the rose..in DA2, you just give the other characters gifts. They're like "thanks", you get to flirt, and that's it. Didn't feel very reciprocal. It would have been nice to see some gestures from Hawke's love interests.

I can go for that, but I think it may be best if romantic overtures from NPCs don't happen until after the protag has clearly expressed interest.

[brushyourteeth]

This is probably piddly and unimportant, but if somone like Anders was going to be attracted to both sexes anyway, I think it would have been neat to have him acknowledge his rival's obvious charms when the both are competing for Hawke's affection. It would have fleshed things out just a little, I think, if he had told Fenris or Isabela "You're hot, I'll give you that -- but stay away from Hawke."

Though I think a simple solution to the whole "is everybody really going to be bi? Really?" question (at least for one character in the next game, it may get redundant after that) is for the protagonist to be the love interest's "Karl."

For instance, we all know it's not really realistic to expect everyone you know to be bisexual (or straight for that matter). But if we have a character that is traditionally straight (like Morrigan or Alistair) but that for the first time in their lives finds themselves involved in a same-sex attraction to the protagonist, well... that makes quite a bit of sense and allows the romance to take place on some grounds that one of the romances has never covered yet. To me, Anders seemed quite as surprised as anyone that he was suddenly attracted to Karl -- and I find that really interesting.

Of course the problem with this is that it wouldn't work for a gay character to suddenly try being straight. I think a lot of people would find that offensive. But it seems a little more organic to me than being suddenly thrust into an entire group of people who are all attracted to both sexes - which in real life today, as well as most periods of history, was unlikely.

And personally, I'm all for having only gay as well as only straight LI options. Replay value and realism, people - in real life not everyone will be attracted to you just because you're attracted to them. And I kind of reject the notion that DA fans aren't adult enough to deal with the disappointment of not being able to romance everyone all the time. A lack of being able to romance your companion shouldn't do anything to diminish the satisfaction of their friendship.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 02 mai 2012 - 02:11 .

[upsettingshorts]

"They're all bi" isn't meant to be realistic, and whenever anyone cites realism I have to question their motivations for raising that argument in objecting to it.

It's a mechanic to make the most romance options available to the most people with the most preferences at the lowest cost. There is no disputing this. Whether or not this "breaks" someone's "immersion" is not the point, the point is to deliver broadly appealing content efficiently, and making all romance options bisexual does this.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 mai 2012 - 02:16 .

[Darth Krytie]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

"They're all bi" isn't meant to be realistic, and whenever anyone cites realism I have to question their motivations for raising that argument in objecting to it.

It's a mechanic to make the most romance options available to the most people with the most preferences at the lowest cost. There is no disputing this. Whether or not this "breaks" someone's "immersion" is not the point, the point is to deliver broadly appealing content efficiently, and making all romance options bisexual does this.

You mean to tell me you find it ridiculous for people to claim it's unrealistic for all our comapions to be bi in a game in which we can zap people with fireballs and magically warped monsters pop in and out of existence and I dunno dragons and archdemons exist?

I wonder why....

[AkiKishi]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

"They're all bi" isn't meant to be realistic, and whenever anyone cites realism I have to question their motivations for raising that argument in objecting to it.

It's a mechanic to make the most romance options available to the most people with the most preferences at the lowest cost. There is no disputing this. Whether or not this "breaks" someone's "immersion" is not the point, the point is to deliver broadly appealing content efficiently, and making all romance options bisexual does this.

You mean to tell me you find it ridiculous for people to claim it's unrealistic for all our comapions to be bi in a game in which we can zap people with fireballs and magically warped monsters pop in and out of existence and I dunno dragons and archdemons exist?

I wonder why....

And if someone pulls out an M-16 ?

[upsettingshorts]

BobSmith101 wrote...

And if someone pulls out an M-16 ?

Strawman.

What purpose would introducing an M-16 serve that is comparable to making the most romance options available for the most preferences at low cost?

It's going to be very hard if not impossible to convince me that any and all arguments against "they're all bisexual" that cite reaslism aren't simply code.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 mai 2012 - 02:23 .

[brushyourteeth]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

"They're all bi" isn't meant to be realistic, and whenever anyone cites realism I have to question their motivations for raising that argument in objecting to it.

It's a mechanic to make the most romance options available to the most people with the most preferences at the lowest cost. There is no disputing this. Whether or not this "breaks" someone's "immersion" is not the point, the point is to deliver broadly appealing content efficiently, and making all romance options bisexual does this.

I can see that you're frustrated, but you're throwing motivations out there that belong to people who have posted about this in the past -- not me.

I'm not talking about immersion. There are a million things I'd be worried about as far as immersion goes rather than this.

If you'll reread what I wrote, I'm sure you'll see that I'm simply suggesting a new and (in my opinion) interesting way to "make the most romance options available to the most people with the most preferences at the lowest cost."

*EDIT* And yes, I do see realism as one potential benefit, though not as the primary reason for the suggestion.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 02 mai 2012 - 02:24 .

[upsettingshorts]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I can see that you're frustrated, but you're throwing motivations out there that belong to people who have posted about this in the past -- not me.

Frustrated?  No.  Tired.  None of this is new.

brushyourteeth wrote... 

If you'll reread what I wrote, I'm sure you'll see that I'm simply suggesting a new and (in my opinion) interesting way to "make the most romance options available to the most people with the most preferences at the lowest cost."

When Mass Effect 3 did something similar to what you suggest - with the Virmire survivor - and Dragon Age 2 did the same - with Anders - there was much, much angry hand-wringing over how BioWare had "made them gay" as part of "the gay agenda."

Removing gender restrictions and taking appropriate small steps in dialogue to acknowledge whatever differences the writers deem necessary is a good solution.  Players ought to be as accepting of it as any other gamey feature added for convenience and fun, despite its lack of realism.  That people seem to get more up-in-arms about bisexuality in their LIs than any comparable compromise for the sake of players' enjoyment is the reason I think such arguments are motivated by prejudice.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 mai 2012 - 02:29 .