649 réponses à ce sujet

[Sutekh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

And if someone pulls out an M-16 ?

If someone pulls out an M16, they violate DA internal logic. DA internal logic says nothing about sexual orientation.

[whykikyouwhy]

brushyourteeth wrote...

And personally, I'm all for having only gay as well as only straight LI options. Replay value and realism, people - in real life not everyone will be attracted to you just because you're attracted to them. And I kind of reject the notion that DA fans aren't adult enough to deal with the disappointment of not being able to romance everyone all the time. A lack of being able to romance your companion shouldn't do anything to diminish the satisfaction of their friendship.

It's not really a matter of "not everyone is attracted to you" - there is still criteria to get a game romance to flourish, be it through gifts, conversations, or active flirting. And there are characters that you can flirt with who won't respond or will flat out reject the advances. But when you have characters that are established as being part of the romance arc in the narrative, allowing them to be available to the PC, regardless of the PC's class or gender, enables the player to role-play as he/she wishes. And even then, romances are optional, and romances require action on the player's part. If a player thinks a character is all sorts of nifty cool, he/she can chat that character up, not flirt, and then establish that character as a friend to the PC.

People replay games for different reasons - romances may be one of those, but romances are only a piece of the game as a whole.
I didn't find any issue with replay value in having DA2's LIs available to Hawke regardless of Hawke's gender.  

[AkiKishi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

And if someone pulls out an M-16 ?

Strawman.

What purpose would introducing an M-16 serve that is comparable to making the most romance options available for the most preferences at low cost?

It's going to be very hard if not impossible to convince me that any and all arguments against "they're all bisexual" that cite reaslism aren't simply code.

I agree with you. Developers pretty much confirmed it yesterday. 

[brushyourteeth]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

I can see that you're frustrated, but you're throwing motivations out there that belong to people who have posted about this in the past -- not me.

Frustrated?  No.  Tired.  None of this is new.

I understand. Really.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote... 

If you'll reread what I wrote, I'm sure you'll see that I'm simply suggesting a new and (in my opinion) interesting way to "make the most romance options available to the most people with the most preferences at the lowest cost."

When Mass Effect did something similar to what you suggest - with the Virmire survivor - and Dragon Age did the same - with Anders - there was much, much angry hand-wringing over how BioWare had "made them gay" as part of "the gay agenda."

Removing gender restrictions and taking appropriate small steps in dialogue to acknowledge whatever differences the writers deem necessary is a good solution.  Players ought to be as accepting of it as any other gamey feature added for convenience and fun, despite its lack of realism.  That people seem to get more up-in-arms about bisexuality in their LIs than any comparable compromise for the sake of players' enjoyment is the reason I think such arguments are motivated by prejudice.

I'd like to be clear on this - I have no personal problem with the way the romances were done in DAII. None. Really. At least not as far as sexual orientation goes. Players who want some kind of "gay toggle" are being ridiculous. In DA, as in real life, people will flirt with you and whatever their gender, you should take it as a compliment and if you're not interested simply move on. Suppressing their same-sex attraction shouldn't be a thought to even enter into one's head. I absolutely do not want to raise that issue again - quite frankly it's revolting.

I understand that a lot of the backlash over Ashley/Kaidan and Anders was because of homophobia. Sad, but there it is. Some of it, however, fairly came from what fans saw as the retcon of a character in order to make everyone happy - not necessarily because it was a new chapter that felt true to that character. The first group of people are ridiculous. The second group is probably still ridiculous, but I understand their frustration.

Here's what I'm saying -- if you've ever experienced the romance with Alistair, you'll understand how sweet it was to cover the "I've never done this before" ground with him. The same sort of thing could apply to one (not all) LI in DAIII, and it would make for some interesting character development. If I have one problem with every LI being bi, it's only that it will get tired and predictable quickly. I hope you'll recognize that I'm no homophobe or selfish bigot -- again, in my original post I said I'd prefer to even have straight and gay only romances for the variety and replay value of it.

[AkiKishi]

brushyourteeth wrote...
I'd like to be clear on this - I have no personal problem with the way the romances were done in DAII. None. Really. At least not as far as sexual orientation goes. Players who want some kind of "gay toggle" are being ridiculous. In DA, as in real life, people will flirt with you and whatever their gender, you should take it as a compliment and if you're not interested simply move on. Suppressing their same-sex attraction shouldn't be a thought to even enter into one's head. I absolutely do not want to raise that issue again - quite frankly it's revolting.

I understand that a lot of the backlash over Ashley/Kaidan and Anders was because of homophobia. Sad, but there it is. Some of it, however, fairly came from what fans saw as the retcon of a character in order to make everyone happy - not necessarily because it was a new chapter that felt true to that character. The first group of people are ridiculous. The second group is probably still ridiculous, but I understand their frustration.

Here's what I'm saying -- if you've ever experienced the romance with Alistair, you'll understand how sweet it was to cover the "I've never done this before" ground with him. The same sort of thing could apply to one (not all) LI in DAIII, and it would make for some interesting character development. If I have one problem with every LI being bi, it's only that it will get tired and predictable quickly. I hope you'll recognize that I'm no homophobe or selfish bigot -- again, in my original post I said I'd prefer to even have straight and gay only romances for the variety and replay value of it.

Why ? We have a blood toggle for people who don't want to see blood.

I'm not bothered unless I'm gay ninjamanced, which is why I like the heart icons. But I don't see a toggle for that being any more ridiculous than turning off blood, unless you are trying to force an agenda on the gamer.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 02 mai 2012 - 02:43 .

[ReallyRue]

brushyourteeth wrote...

... in my original post I said I'd prefer to even have straight and gay only romances for the variety and replay value of it.

Personally, I like the all-bi system, seeing as the romances are unrealistic anyway (everyone has the same taste in partner, regardless of morals/personality/appearance/whatever?), but if Bioware did get rid of the all-bi system, I would want it to be for something like this -  a straight LI, bisexual LI, gay LI. It would still be unrealistic, but it would increase reply value I suppose, and represent more people who think sexuality is important to someone's character/personality.

[brushyourteeth]

BobSmith101 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
I'd like to be clear on this - I have no personal problem with the way the romances were done in DAII. None. Really. At least not as far as sexual orientation goes. Players who want some kind of "gay toggle" are being ridiculous. In DA, as in real life, people will flirt with you and whatever their gender, you should take it as a compliment and if you're not interested simply move on. Suppressing their same-sex attraction shouldn't be a thought to even enter into one's head. I absolutely do not want to raise that issue again - quite frankly it's revolting.

I understand that a lot of the backlash over Ashley/Kaidan and Anders was because of homophobia. Sad, but there it is. Some of it, however, fairly came from what fans saw as the retcon of a character in order to make everyone happy - not necessarily because it was a new chapter that felt true to that character. The first group of people are ridiculous. The second group is probably still ridiculous, but I understand their frustration.

Here's what I'm saying -- if you've ever experienced the romance with Alistair, you'll understand how sweet it was to cover the "I've never done this before" ground with him. The same sort of thing could apply to one (not all) LI in DAIII, and it would make for some interesting character development. If I have one problem with every LI being bi, it's only that it will get tired and predictable quickly. I hope you'll recognize that I'm no homophobe or selfish bigot -- again, in my original post I said I'd prefer to even have straight and gay only romances for the variety and replay value of it.

Why ? We have a blood toggle for people who don't want to see blood.

I'm not bothered unless I'm gay ninjamanced, which is why I like the heart icons. But I don't see a toggle for that being any more ridiculous than turning off blood, unless you are trying to force an agenda on the gamer.

There's a romance toggle, fella. It's called the heart icon. It works for every romanceable character. Ninjamancing is no longer an issue.

[brushyourteeth]

ReallyRue wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

... in my original post I said I'd prefer to even have straight and gay only romances for the variety and replay value of it.

Personally, I like the all-bi system, seeing as the romances are unrealistic anyway (everyone has the same taste in partner, regardless of morals/personality/appearance/whatever?), but if Bioware did get rid of the all-bi system, I would want it to be for something like this -  a straight LI, bisexual LI, gay LI. It would still be unrealistic, but it would increase reply value I suppose, and represent more people who think sexuality is important to someone's character/personality.

For the purpose of this discussion, though, that's not even what I'm getting at. I was mostly just suggesting the "Karl" idea, because it would make for an interesting place to begin a romance.

Going to only gay/only straight LI's definitely interests me because I'm the type that plays a game like DA 10 times over and tries every option available. But I realize that probably wouldn't happen till DAIV or beyond, and that's ok.

[whykikyouwhy]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Why ? We have a blood toggle for people who don't want to see blood.

I'm not bothered unless I'm gay ninjamanced, which is why I like the heart icons. But I don't see a toggle for that being any more ridiculous than turning off blood, unless you are trying to force an agenda on the gamer.

Such a toggle could potentially affect dialogue and animation - because the devs would have to make assumptions as to what players may find offensive/inappropriate. At the end of Isabela's recruitment quest, she makes a suggestive comment to Hawke - would that be part of the "gay" grouping of scenes or banter and thus, would that get turned off by the toggle? If the answer is yes, that would (most unfortunately) limit the player from seeing a nuance of the character - that she is flirty, that she likes to push buttons and get a reaction. And so too, you would lose out on hearing that she hangs out at the Hanged Man and can be found there for idle conversation.

Blood is an aesthetic. Something related to s/s matters (be it vague or otherwise) is part of the character. I, for one, don't understand why you would want to turn off bits and pieces of any character. If you don't want to engage in a romance with said character, simply don't flirt with him/her when you have your PC converse. There's your "switch" right there - don't take a certain action.

[Pasquale1234]

brushyourteeth wrote...

For instance, we all know it's not really realistic to expect everyone you know to be bisexual (or straight for that matter)..

No, we don't know that.

1)  The game world is Thedas, not Earth and its environs.

2)  There are theories, not entirely proven or disproven, that the vast majority of the population is bisexual, and only a minority that is purely hetero or homosexual.  Let's not forget the Kinsey Scale.

Of course, we're talking about a world populated with elves, dwarves, and mages where the predominant religion is a matriarchy and there is no social or religious condemnation of s/s relationships, so any suggestions of what might be realistic or provide verisimilitude don't carry much weight.

[AkiKishi]

I'm not bothered unless I'm gay ninjamanced, which is why I like the heart icons. But I don't see a toggle for that being any more ridiculous than turning off blood, unless you are trying to force an agenda on the gamer.

brushyourteeth wrote...
There's a romance toggle, fella. It's called the heart icon. It works for every romanceable character. Ninjamancing is no longer an issue.

I believe I said as much. But you never answered the question, which was why was a gay toggle so ridiculous ? 

Modifié par BobSmith101, 02 mai 2012 - 02:54 .

[Dhiro]

I felt that the all-bisexual system was amazing. They give the players more options, at a lower cost and appease the LGBT community in a single stroke. I'm a little surprised that so many people complain about this, since the "Dragon Age II doesn't gives us enough options!" argument is very popular.

I also don't think that going back to DA:O system will stop male NPCs from flirting with male, heterosexual players - remember Zevran? Not only that, but Anders' flirting makes sense from an In Character point of view, too. Doesn't that enriches the character and adds to immersion? It did for me, in any case.

I usually like the direction BioWare goes with their romances, though finding a romance I like, is male and also avaliable for male player characters can be a hit-and-miss. I usually pin over characters that aren't romance options, wich brings me to the subject that BioWare could afford being a little more daring with their romance options.

[Dakota Strider]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

 I, for one, don't understand why you would want to turn off bits and pieces of any character. If you don't want to engage in a romance with said character, simply don't flirt with him/her when you have your PC converse. There's your "switch" right there - don't take a certain action.

Creating characters that have a split personality is better?  Why not characters that act the same, regardless of what type of character you play?  If they like guys, they like guys regardless of what sex of character the player has.  If they like gals, they always like gals.    I really feel it cheapens the companions to make them change with whichever way the wind blows. 

[Cantina]

I think when it comes to the romances being whatever sexual preference it is not about them, it is about you the player. Want to be a male warrior and romance that hot hunk of mage flesh, go ahead. BUT when you have information such as Anders and Karl being only revealed to the male player it takes away from Anders back story. To me that information is vital getting to know him on a personal level no matter what sex you chose to play.

It is funny though, people get pissed because they play a male character and cannot romance this male companion. Then the option is available in the next game and then you have people pissed because the option is now available. I sincerely feel sorry for the developers, no matter how hard they try to please the fans they end up being the target of ****ing. Granted, games are not perfect, the flaws need to be brought in the light for fixes in the future. But things like I mentioned above, just end up giving the developers a migraine.

[Dhiro]

Cantina wrote...

I think when it comes to the romances being whatever sexual preference it is not about them, it is about you the player. Want to be a male warrior and romance that hot hunk of mage flesh, go ahead. BUT when you have information such as Anders and Karl being only revealed to the male player it takes away from Anders back story. To me that information is vital getting to know him on a personal level no matter what sex you chose to play.

It is funny though, people get pissed because they play a male character and cannot romance this male companion. Then the option is available in the next game and then you have people pissed because the option is now available. I sincerely feel sorry for the developers, no matter how hard they try to please the fans they end up being the target of ****ing. Granted, games are not perfect, the flaws need to be brought in the light for fixes in the future. But things like I mentioned above, just end up giving the developers a migraine.

I am almost certain that the people complaining now aren't the same people that were complaining before. I'm sure that the many people who downloaded the same sex mod for DA:O so they could romance Alistair or Morrigan were very happy with the direction of Dragon Age II. 

[upsettingshorts]

Cantina wrote...

I think when it comes to the romances being whatever sexual preference it is not about them, it is about you the player. Want to be a male warrior and romance that hot hunk of mage flesh, go ahead. BUT when you have information such as Anders and Karl being only revealed to the male player it takes away from Anders back story. To me that information is vital getting to know him on a personal level no matter what sex you chose to play.

I disagree.  The fact he tells ManHawke but not FemHawke is, in of itself, character development.  It encourages the player to think about why he would reveal his relationship with Karl to another man but not a woman.  If he tells them both, especially in the same way, it doesn't reveal anything other than the fact the relationship existed.  

This way, we are still - eventually - able to discover that the relationship always existed, but we also have the added bonus of a hint as to how Anders feels about it, and when he thinks its important to talk about.  We would not have this if he always spoke of Karl.

[brushyourteeth]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I'm not bothered unless I'm gay ninjamanced, which is why I like the heart icons. But I don't see a toggle for that being any more ridiculous than turning off blood, unless you are trying to force an agenda on the gamer.

brushyourteeth wrote...
There's a romance toggle, fella. It's called the heart icon. It works for every romanceable character. Ninjamancing is no longer an issue.

I believe I said as much. But you never answered the question, which was why was a gay toggle so ridiculous ? 

1.) Because the request for one shows not even a subtly disguised intolerance for the presence of homosexuality in a game.

2. Because there's no reason for the DA team to waste time and resources, no matter how little, on something as trivial as a refusal to accept the existence of gay people and their right to flirt with whomever they choose.

They've made it as easy as possible to say "no thanks" with clearly defined dialogue options and icons. If you are that offended by said character, you can ask them to leave, but you cannot change them, nor should you. Asking for anything more is indicative of homophobia or extreme laziness, and I've no taste for either.

[whykikyouwhy]

Dakota Strider wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

 I, for one, don't understand why you would want to turn off bits and pieces of any character. If you don't want to engage in a romance with said character, simply don't flirt with him/her when you have your PC converse. There's your "switch" right there - don't take a certain action.

Creating characters that have a split personality is better?  Why not characters that act the same, regardless of what type of character you play?  If they like guys, they like guys regardless of what sex of character the player has.  If they like gals, they always like gals.    I really feel it cheapens the companions to make them change with whichever way the wind blows. 

I think it would cheapen the companions to have them declare every single nuance and facet of themselves because players want to be categorize them. <_<

I find it quite interesting that some folks have the expectation that a character is only valid or realistic if he/she makes known his/her sexual identity and/or desires. As though that aspect represents the summation of the character. Sexual identity is but one factor of a person - realistic or fictional.

And as for characters not acting the same regardless of what type of character you play - the companions will react differently based on the tone and personality of Hawke. Which really resonates stronger, imo - because it's how we treat people that often dictates how they perceive us and how they will react in turn. It's not a matter of split personality. 

[AkiKishi]

brushyourteeth wrote...
1.) Because the request for one shows not even a subtly disguised intolerance for the presence of homosexuality in a game.

2. Because there's no reason for the DA team to waste time and resources, no matter how little, on something as trivial as a refusal to accept the existence of gay people and their right to flirt with whomever they choose.

They've made it as easy as possible to say "no thanks" with clearly defined dialogue options and icons. If you are that offended by said character, you can ask them to leave, but you cannot change them, nor should you. Asking for anything more is indicative of homophobia or extreme laziness, and I've no taste for either.

1. If someone is paying for the game then I'd say they have that right,or the right to be informed of the content. I'm hardly a homophobe, but I certainly don't support a gay agenda anymore than a gay person would support a straight agenda.

2. Because you want to force that on the gamer ? 

[brushyourteeth]

... and thus my original idea for what could have made a new and potentially compelling LI relationship is greatly overshadowed by the gay/straight/bi controversy.

Excellent.

[mousestalker]

I'm a little confused by the idea of a toggle. Is this what you mean?

Gay toggle off, male Hawk

Hawk: Me Hawke
Anders: Me Anders
Hawk: {grunt}
Anders: {belch} Kill templars?
Hawk: Kill templars.

Gay toggle on, male Hawk

Hawk: You're so good looking!
Anders: So are you. I love the red streak! It's so daring
Hawk: Want to come over to my place? I have some etchings.
Anders: I thought you'd never ask!

Gay toggle off, female Hawk

Isabela: Hawk, how do you do it? You are, like, totally hot and all the men adore you. I am so lucky to be your bestest friend.
Hawk: Thank you Isabela, you are a dear friend.
Isabela: I love, love, love your shoes. Where did you get them?
Hawk: I found a cute little stall in the market. Let's go shopping!
Isabela: {Squee}

Gay toggle on, female Hawk

Isabela: So, when should I schedule the UHaul rental?
Hawk: This afternoon is fine.
Isabela: {belch}
Hawk: {grunt}

Modifié par mousestalker, 02 mai 2012 - 03:12 .

[brushyourteeth]

BobSmith101 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
1.) Because the request for one shows not even a subtly disguised intolerance for the presence of homosexuality in a game.

2. Because there's no reason for the DA team to waste time and resources, no matter how little, on something as trivial as a refusal to accept the existence of gay people and their right to flirt with whomever they choose.

They've made it as easy as possible to say "no thanks" with clearly defined dialogue options and icons. If you are that offended by said character, you can ask them to leave, but you cannot change them, nor should you. Asking for anything more is indicative of homophobia or extreme laziness, and I've no taste for either.

1. If someone is paying for the game then I'd say they have that right,or the right to be informed of the content. I'm hardly a homophobe, but I certainly don't support a gay agenda anymore than a gay person would support a straight agenda.

2. Because you want to force that on the gamer ? 

On the contrary, I think most gay folks you meet would support you being able to love whoever you love without passing judgement.

Listen, I'm a straight, happily married girl. But when I'm out with friends and another girl asks for my number, that's the world we live in. I smile and thank her for the compliment but tell her I'm not interested. Dragon Age gives you the same option - it's not only fair, it's realistic. What is there to complain about in regard to that?

As far as being a gamer with the right to be informed of content, consider yourself informed - Dragon Age: letting innocent straight people get hit on by friendly gay fictional video game characters who know how to respectfully take a hint since 2009.

[Dakota Strider]

brushyourteeth wrote...

... and thus my original idea for what could have made a new and potentially compelling LI relationship is greatly overshadowed by the gay/straight/bi controversy.

Excellent.

You can blame that on the Game Devs/Moderators who enflamed it on another thread, then told people to move it here....and then ducked out without answering questions people had directed to them.

[Cantina]

brushyourteeth wrote...

... and thus my original idea for what could have made a new and potentially compelling LI relationship is greatly overshadowed by the gay/straight/bi controversy.

Excellent.

LOL! <pats the seat next to her> Have a seat, doll, join me..I got popcorn.