649 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

brushyourteeth wrote...
On the contrary, I think most gay folks you meet would support you being able to love whoever you love without passing judgement.

Listen, I'm a straight, happily married girl. But when I'm out with friends and another girl asks for my number, that's the world we live in. I smile and thank her for the compliment but tell her I'm not interested. Dragon Age gives you the same option - it's not only fair, it's realistic. What is there to complain about in regard to that?

As far as being a gamer with the right to be informed of content, consider yourself informed - Dragon Age: letting innocent straight people get hit on by friendly gay fictional video game characters who know how to respectfully take a hint since 2009.

We are talking about paying for a piece of entertainment here. Not a trip to a bar. Tailoring that entertainment to your tastes is already established. We have blood,sliders, difficulty sliders parental consent sliders etc.

If people want to shut off certain content I don't have a problem with it. To me, it's nothing new.

[Cantina]

So what....its OK for the LI to be whatever sexual preference they perfer but those preferences are based on the choices your character chooses?

I will say I liked it tremedously that Anders will breakup with you, IF you choose to do something "naughty" in the game. Too bad that did not come up more offen with other choices you made.

I think maybe, what hurt the Anders romance, is no matter if you chose to rival or friend it ends the same way. He realizes doing what he did with Justice was wrong, the Chantry goes boom. Where as in Origins, there were so many directions with Alistair romance and it does not always end the same way.

[whykikyouwhy]

Dakota Strider wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

... and thus my original idea for what could have made a new and potentially compelling LI relationship is greatly overshadowed by the gay/straight/bi controversy.

Excellent.

You can blame that on the Game Devs/Moderators who enflamed it on another thread, then told people to move it here....and then ducked out without answering questions people had directed to them.

Interesting. Because I felt that they had indeed answered and addressed several concerns on that thread - as evident on page 4.

[upsettingshorts]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Yeah, I really don’t like that line about questioning the motivations of those people (myself included) who object to the idea of having an all bisexual cast of LI’s. In any case, the arguments against doing so are more thoughtful than you give us credit for.

They're more thoughtfully disguised.

[Dakota Strider]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

... and thus my original idea for what could have made a new and potentially compelling LI relationship is greatly overshadowed by the gay/straight/bi controversy.

Excellent.

You can blame that on the Game Devs/Moderators who enflamed it on another thread, then told people to move it here....and then ducked out without answering questions people had directed to them.

Interesting. Because I felt that they had indeed answered and addressed several concerns on that thread - as evident on page 4.

Perhaps it satisfied the people that already agree with them, but there were several of us that posted questions to DGaider, immediately after his long post, and it was shortly after that, they made their escape.

[Ianamus]

I think that a "gay romance toggle" is a pointless idea, and a complete waste of time and resources. 

Look at Steve Cortex in Mass Effect 3. He is open and upfront about his homosexuality and his husband is brought up several times and is an integral part of his backstory. With the "gay toggle" off is his entire character simply removed? Or does it simply remove that one dialogue option halfway down his friendship path where you can say whether your waiting for the right man? 

If it's the latter then I really don't see the point of implementing an entire feature just to remove one conversation option, it makes no differnece in the long run as if you don't want to pursue a romance with him (as with any other LI) you can just say no. 

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Yeah, I really don’t like that line about questioning the motivations of those people (myself included) who object to the idea of having an all bisexual cast of LI’s. In any case, the arguments against doing so are more thoughtful than you give us credit for.

They're more thoughtfully disguised.

 

I really don't see a problem with how the LI's in DA2 were all bisexual. Isabela and Anders were open about it while for Merrill and Fenris it was a personal thing that only came up if you romanced them (which is pretty realistic). It really had no impact on the charcacters outside of romance, and finally gave players who play those types of romances a choice, rather than only one option. 

Modifié par EJ107, 02 mai 2012 - 03:29 .

[brushyourteeth]

Dakota Strider wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

... and thus my original idea for what could have made a new and potentially compelling LI relationship is greatly overshadowed by the gay/straight/bi controversy.

Excellent.

You can blame that on the Game Devs/Moderators who enflamed it on another thread, then told people to move it here....and then ducked out without answering questions people had directed to them.

Cantina wrote...
LOL! <pats the seat next to her> Have a seat, doll, join me..I got popcorn.

Well, the fact that you both noticed is some consolation. So thanks for that.
For what it's worth, I don't blame the devs for ducking out. It's a lot of the same old arguments being rahashed again and again in defiance of all the questions they've already answered. I simply reject the notion that I must be part of the gay haters club of America just because I mentioned the bi romances in my post.

I hope everyone can understand that nothing could have been further from my intention.

[brushyourteeth]

BobSmith101 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
On the contrary, I think most gay folks you meet would support you being able to love whoever you love without passing judgement.

Listen, I'm a straight, happily married girl. But when I'm out with friends and another girl asks for my number, that's the world we live in. I smile and thank her for the compliment but tell her I'm not interested. Dragon Age gives you the same option - it's not only fair, it's realistic. What is there to complain about in regard to that?

As far as being a gamer with the right to be informed of content, consider yourself informed - Dragon Age: letting innocent straight people get hit on by friendly gay fictional video game characters who know how to respectfully take a hint since 2009.

We are talking about paying for a piece of entertainment here. Not a trip to a bar. Tailoring that entertainment to your tastes is already established. We have blood,sliders, difficulty sliders parental consent sliders etc.

If people want to shut off certain content I don't have a problem with it. To me, it's nothing new.

I just don't see us agreeing on this issue, but for what it's worth I hear you and I understand what you're asking for.

[Dakota Strider]

EJ107 wrote...

I think that a hay romance toggle is a completely pointless idea, and a complete waste of time and resources. 

Look at Steve Cortex in Mass Effect 3. He is open and upfront about his homosexuality and his husband is brought up several times and is an integral part of his backstory. With the "gay toggle" off is his entire character simply removed? Or does it simply remove that one dialogue option halfway down his friendship path where you can say whether your waiting for the right man? 

If it's the latter then I really don't see the point of implementing an entire feature just to remove one conversation option, it makes no differnece in the long run as if you don't want to pursue a romance with him (as with any other LI) you can just say no. 

ME3 actually handled the situation the way most of us would prefer.  No toggle was needed, because Steve was always gay,  the comm officer (forget her name) was always gay, and the other characters were consistant with who they were as well.  However, the DA devs seem to be hinting that they do not have the resources to make enough LI interests to suit everyone, that all have consistant identities.  So, that is the rationale they give us, for the ALl Bi LI.  

[AkiKishi]

EJ107 wrote...

I think that a "gay romance toggle" is a pointless idea, and a complete waste of time and resources. 

Look at Steve Cortex in Mass Effect 3. He is open and upfront about his homosexuality and his husband is brought up several times and is an integral part of his backstory. With the "gay toggle" off is his entire character simply removed? Or does it simply remove that one dialogue option halfway down his friendship path where you can say whether your waiting for the right man? 

If it's the latter then I really don't see the point of implementing an entire feature just to remove one conversation option, it makes no differnece in the long run as if you don't want to pursue a romance with him (as with any other LI) you can just say no. 

Speaking of Steve. Not long after him talking about his husband you get a "I'll be there for you" paraphrase. Now I'm not touching that one without a heart icon for clarity. So I just ignored him for the rest of the game.

Steve being gay is fine. Being Steves new husband.. no thanks.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 02 mai 2012 - 03:31 .

[Sutekh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

We are talking about paying for a piece of entertainment here. Not a trip to a bar. Tailoring that entertainment to your tastes is already established. We have blood,sliders, difficulty sliders parental consent sliders etc.

If people want to shut off certain content I don't have a problem with it. To me, it's nothing new.

We are talking about a piece of media potentially reaching millions of people. Equating sexual orientation to violence and explicit sex or everything a parent should be concerned about has implications that this could / should be censored because it is inherently a bad thing.

If [general] you think it is inherently a bad thing, then you are prejudiced. Bioware has no reason to cater to that.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Cantina wrote...

I think when it comes to the romances being whatever sexual preference it is not about them, it is about you the player. Want to be a male warrior and romance that hot hunk of mage flesh, go ahead. 

 BUT when you have information such as Anders and Karl being only revealed to the male player it takes away from Anders back story. To me that information is vital getting to know him on a personal level no matter what sex you chose to play.

 
You are reading too many materials outside the game. The most important thing is what you see and experience in the game. Everything else doesn't matter. If you're willing to run away with Anders risking being hunted by the Seeker, then I'm sure you can understand that Anders is more important than anything else.

The one Anders that you love never had any relationship with Karl. He is what you think he is. The other Anders that you see is not the same Anders. He belong to parallel dimension and in that parallel dimension you are not the same person either. So ignore it. Believe in yourself and your Anders. It's your fantasy.

And this is coming from someone who dislike Anders.     

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 02 mai 2012 - 03:34 .

[brushyourteeth]

BobSmith101 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

I think that a "gay romance toggle" is a pointless idea, and a complete waste of time and resources. 

Look at Steve Cortex in Mass Effect 3. He is open and upfront about his homosexuality and his husband is brought up several times and is an integral part of his backstory. With the "gay toggle" off is his entire character simply removed? Or does it simply remove that one dialogue option halfway down his friendship path where you can say whether your waiting for the right man? 

If it's the latter then I really don't see the point of implementing an entire feature just to remove one conversation option, it makes no differnece in the long run as if you don't want to pursue a romance with him (as with any other LI) you can just say no. 

Speaking of Steve. Not long after him talking about his husband you get a "I'll be there for you" paraphrase. Now I'm not touching that one without a heart icon for clarity. So I just ignored him for the rest of the game.

Steve being gay is fine. Being Steves new husband.. no thanks.

... that sounds strikingly like an admission that thanks to the intent icons in DA, we actually don't need a "gay toggle."

... and now I stop pushing your buttons. Promise. Unless you really make it too easy.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 02 mai 2012 - 03:34 .

[Cantina]

I very rarely add in real life events to gaming events, simply because I like to view them as two separate entities. However there are some small cases to were real life does reflect certain areas of a game.

Sexuality is one of these small areas. You have to reflect back on our history. Before electricity and transportation came around people had to find entertainment else where. Sex is one of these areas, it was not uncommon for a king to hold an orgie party.

Look at Dragon Age, people in Thedas don't have a lot to entertain themselves. Sure you could go out and stab a dragon, but if you don't have the capability of doing that, throw an orgie party.

Sex is entertainment and its not based on what sex you are, its all about having fun. Isabella certainly is entertained by such activities.

Its not like in Thedas you come home after a long day of work, watch T.V. in your underwear and drink a beer. Now that I think about that, seeing Anders do that, is just, well disturbing.

[jlb524]

BobSmith101 wrote...
1. If someone is paying for the game then I'd say they have that right,or the right to be informed of the content. I'm hardly a homophobe, but I certainly don't support a gay agenda anymore than a gay person would support a straight agenda.

Like, all the content?  Even the ending?  

BobSmith101 wrote... 
2. Because you want to force that on the gamer ? 

Newsflash, there's lots of gamers out there (even straight ones) that just don't care.

[Curlain]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Yeah, I really don’t like that line about questioning the motivations of those people (myself included) who object to the idea of having an all bisexual cast of LI’s. In any case, the arguments against doing so are more thoughtful than you give us credit for.

They're more thoughtfully disguised.

I don't really get to bothered with all romance options being progtagonist-sexual effectively either way since there are so many others things I dislike about DA2 that are much more important to me.  However, unless you are telepathic and can get into other posters minds, stating that they are prejudiced and homophic is a pure insult.  It does show that someone is being judgemental and dismissive to another person based on an opinion (in this case game LI's) but it isn't that someone is being a homophobe, but another kind unaccaptable insult imo all together.

Suggesting someone has homophobic, racist etc tedencies on an internet forum when you hardly have the ability to know that is is actually the case at all, is just another way of invoking Godwin's law to attempt to discredit their postion, rather then engaging with it.  

Modifié par Curlain, 02 mai 2012 - 03:38 .

[whykikyouwhy]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Speaking of Steve. Not long after him talking about his husband you get a "I'll be there for you" paraphrase. Now I'm not touching that one without a heart icon for clarity. So I just ignored him for the rest of the game.

Steve being gay is fine. Being Steves new husband.. no thanks.

I haven't played ME, so I don't know the context of Steve's statement. But Aveline says something similar to Hawke in DA2. It's meant to state that she has Hawke's back, that she'll be there for support and backup in a pinch.

It's a statement from a friend, not a suggestive pick-up line. That  you see that sort of thing as the latter, and use it as reason to ignore someone, is certainly your choice in how you want to play the game, but I find it unfortunate.

[Dakota Strider]

brushyourteeth wrote...
Well, the fact that you both noticed is some consolation. So thanks for that.
For what it's worth, I don't blame the devs for ducking out. It's a lot of the same old arguments being rahashed again and again in defiance of all the questions they've already answered. I simply reject the notion that I must be part of the gay haters club of America just because I mentioned the bi romances in my post.

I hope everyone can understand that nothing could have been further from my intention.

I noticed the literal gymnastics you were doing to try to make it clear (to those who are usually quick to take offense) that you were not a gay hater. 

There are times, when I find it necessary to do that to.  And I am usually selective when I jump into the fray on these issues, because to be honest, I get sick of the contortions one has to go through, to make a point that is even the slightest bit against what the LGBT'ers think the way things should be.

Even when nothing is said that can be taken out of context, you will see some that will claim what we are saying is the new "code" or "disguise" for our supposed hatred.   

It is ironic, that back in the old, old days of gaming (not so long ago) that when the forum conversations were about including LGBT content into games, any opponents to it, were treated far more harshly, if they made such blanket insinuations.  But now, it is almost accepted, and many who feel threatened do not show the same tolerance, that they expect to receive in return.

Thus, everyone has to tip toe around the topic, and say "I don't hate gays"  etc...when that should be the assumption in the first place.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 02 mai 2012 - 03:45 .

[jlb524]

Fandango9641 wrote...
I mean, you make mention of Bioware wanting to make the most of the resources available to them in making LI’s accessible to both sexes and that’s fair, but there’s certainly a down side to doing so. Indeed, and it made seem strange to say, increasing the number of LI’s and having each and every one fit the same sexual profile could be seen by many (myself included) to be pretty limiting.

No, it's better than having 2 gay, 2 bisexual, 2 heterosexual which is what some people want.  Having a diversity like this requires more LIs than the all bisexual thing if you want to provide equal options for homosexual as well as heterosexual PCs.

You don't have to increase the number of LIs for this.   DA:O had 4 LIs....DA2 had 4 LIs (not counting DLC).  4 = 4.

DA2 provided more options for bisexual/homosexual PCs though...that's the difference.  My lesbian DA2 PC had possibly 2 options instead of being stuck with just Leliana.

Fandango9641 wrote... 
Following the line (as some people do) that every single party member should be a romantic option for every single protagonist actually saturates the potential for each relationship to be deep, meaningful, and above all convincing. Turning every LI into a bot for those who place far too much emphasis on the number of romantic options available to them, rather than the quality of the interaction, is a bad way to go IMO.

I have no clue why you keep bringing up the 'romance everyone in the party' point b/c no one wants that in the first place and BW will never do it.

[brushyourteeth]

Dakota Strider wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
Well, the fact that you both noticed is some consolation. So thanks for that.
For what it's worth, I don't blame the devs for ducking out. It's a lot of the same old arguments being rahashed again and again in defiance of all the questions they've already answered. I simply reject the notion that I must be part of the gay haters club of America just because I mentioned the bi romances in my post.

I hope everyone can understand that nothing could have been further from my intention.

I noticed the literal gymnastics you were doing to try to make it clear (to those who are usually quick to take offense) that you were not a gay hater. 
*snip*
Thus, everyone has to tip toe around the topic, and say "I don't hate gays"  etc...when that should be the assumption in the first place.

I really appreciate this, D.S. Especially in a situation like this one where the first individual to accuse one of prejudice will likely be the last one to admit their mistake.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 02 mai 2012 - 03:46 .

[upsettingshorts]

Curlain wrote...
 However, unless you are telepathic and can get into other posters minds, stating that they are prejudiced and homophic is a pure insult.  It does show that someone is being judgemental and dismissive to another person based on an opinion (in this case game LI's) but it isn't that someone is being a homophobe, but another kind unaccaptable insult imo all together.

Suggesting someone has homophobic, racist etc tedencies on an internet forum when you hardly have the ability to know that is is actually the case at all, is just another way of invoking Godwin's law to attempt to discredit their postion, rather then engaging with it.  

No, it's saying that I am thoroughly, consistently, and repeatedly unimpressed with their arguments.  Every single opportunity I've had to engage someone to the point where they get down to their basic objections, it is - without fail - always, "I don't like the gays in my game."  Everything else just comes off to me as dog-whistle politics.

I'm open to the possibility of someone convincing me that their objections aren't based on their personal discomfort, prejudice, or a self-serving arbitrary concepts of "character depth," but I've yet to be convinced of it by anyone.  

Fandango9641 wrote...

Thank you. Perhaps Mr Upsettingshorts would like to address some of the points I made in the post he quoted rather than cast aspersions?

Perhaps you could provide examples as to what the hell you're talking about in your points.  You seem to be speaking of games I have not played, that took approaches I have not seen, because you are not being specific and using vague generalities.

brushyourteeth wrote...

I really appreciate this, D.S. Especially in a situation like this one where the first individual to accuse one of prejudice will likely be the last one to admit their mistake.

Stop taking it personally.  I was painting with a broad brush.

I just didn't see how your ideas were new at all.  They're exactly what they did with Anders and the VS.  You were making an argument for a style of romance - the "new experience" - and that's fine, and if BioWare wants to do that with a character it wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with their sexuality, or it might.  It's not essentially intertwined.  The notion that there could be a romance focused on a character's first same sex romance is a perfectly acceptable one I have no problem with.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 mai 2012 - 03:51 .

[AkiKishi]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I haven't played ME, so I don't know the context of Steve's statement. But Aveline says something similar to Hawke in DA2. It's meant to state that she has Hawke's back, that she'll be there for support and backup in a pinch.

It's a statement from a friend, not a suggestive pick-up line. That  you see that sort of thing as the latter, and use it as reason to ignore someone, is certainly your choice in how you want to play the game, but I find it unfortunate.

It's a terrible paraphrase is what it is.

I'll be there for you is something you say to a close friend/girlfriend. Not some guy you have listened to talk about his husband for 5 minutes.

People got Ninjamanced by the VS in the same manner. Makes more sense given the history, but still a very bad lack of clarity.