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[fchopin]

If we are romancing someone and change our mind i would like the option to say go away and don't come back.

[David Gaider]

Cantina wrote...
What I am saying is I used Anders romance as an example and picked it apart by showing what I viewed as bad flaws. My hope is that by bringing these issues forward will allow other players to comment on how they felt about whichever romance, they chose and if they found flaws.

When I go back in Origins and romance let us say, Alistair, I actually felt it was a romance. You did a lovely job smoothing it across the game. However, in Dragon Age 2 my romance with Anders felt disconnected and all over the place. It just did not have the same feel of being in a relationship. I think cutting out interacting with your romance whenever you so chose led to that disconnecting feeling.

Not saying I hated the Anders romance, I did like parts of it, but I just felt it could have been done better.

What this tells me, however, is that you liked the Alistair romance and disliked the Anders romance-- and yet used a single example to paint all the romances as if they were the same.

It's odd, too, because one of the points you brought up was how static "DA2 romances" were-- and yet Anders is actually the worst example of that, considering the character arc he has over the course of the game and how it can change based on his friendship/rivalry. Alistair is the least static of DAO romances, meanwhile, but only because he's the one most strongly tied into the main plot. You decide his fate in the end, but the amount you can actually change him is quite limited... and the other romance characters far less so. So generalizations based on these two examples don't really hold up.

An argument can be made that romances are better when they're tied to the main plot more strongly... but while that does allow a romance to be larger (Alistair was easily twice the content of the other characters in DAO), that does mean less of them. Great, you say? Sure... if you like Alistair. If one's recommendation is that romances should have more, more, more of everything... MORE conversations! MORE sex scenes! MORE interactions! MORE nuances!... I'm not saying you're actually proposing this yourself, but it's an attitude I see quite often here, and I doubt we'll ever reach the level of simulation that these people keep suggesting. Not without romance being the focus of the game.

And if one's suggestion is that, because they like Alistair, we should just keep doing that and only that-- repeatedly-- well, I'm glad they like Alistair so much. But that's really all I'll say about it.

I've mentioned elsewhere about some of the changes insofar as character/romance interactions go, but the answer is not just heaping more content onto them. Or, at least, that's not a realistic answer that I can actually consider.

[David Gaider]

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...
As for more skin showing in romance scenes, I'd rather not. It doesn't really bother me, but it isn't something I enjoy watching. I like scenes that are more focused on the emotional aspect of romance rather than the physical. It's enough for me to know that these characters I created got some action in the span of ten years. I don't need to see it happen.

Neither do I. I get that some people think we should show nudity in our sex scenes, or have multiple sex scenes... but the reason we shy away from that isn't because of ratings/censorship but because we're not keen on it. Often it just feels gratuitous (and someone can say whatever they like about the Witcher scenes, they were definitely gratuitous -- and that's not a reflection on the quality of the game itself, just the truth), particularly when used as the culmination of a romance... as if sex was the point of romance?

Some people might enjoy the "jackpot!" moment, I guess... but personally I'd rather get away from sex scenes completely instead of focusing on them even more heavily.

[upsettingshorts]

Pretty much every time I read another poster on the BSN talk about Dragon Age: Origins, I can't help but feel as if they either played a very different game, or are speaking a foreign language where words mean completely different things. Or both.

[Firewolf99]

I actually preferred the romances in DA2 to DA:O. There are some great ideas in this thread: ME3 style love scenes, ability to romantically interact with characters at all times (Even Post-game, perhaps?). But the thing about DA:O's romances were they were static physically. It was the same old, "Stand and face the other character and talk." There was no motion to the scene. That's why I preferred DA2's scenes: because they seemed to have more energy.

And the romance options in DA:O weren't any better or worse than in DA2 in my opinion. I mean, you had the sexually provocative (Isabela/Zevran), the cutely innocent (Merril/Alistair), the angry renegade (Fenris/Morrigan) and... well, okay, you can't really compare Leliana and Anders, but you get my point. This is how I saw them anyway: and I felt far more involved in my MHawke/ Isabela romance than I was with my MWarden/ Leliana one.

[Dutchess]

I don't find it necessary for the romance to have such a big role in the plot as Alistair, Morrigan or Anders had. I enjoyed Zevran and Fenris' romance a lot as well, and I think - in the case of Fenris - they can offer an important point of view. It was good to have an example of what happens when mages are indeed allowed to are free and do as they wish. I don't need them all to be used for some kind of plot twist. That could easily become a bit absurd as well. As long as they have a valid reason to care about the cause of the main character and to follow him/her, I consider that as sufficient plot relevance.

[Firewolf99]

David Gaider wrote...

Neither do I. I get that some people think we should show nudity in our sex scenes, or have multiple sex scenes... but the reason we shy away from that isn't because of ratings/censorship but because we're not keen on it. Often it just feels gratuitous (and someone can say whatever they like about the Witcher scenes, they were definitely gratuitous -- and that's not a reflection on the quality of the game itself, just the truth), particularly when used as the culmination of a romance... as if sex was the point of romance?

Some people might enjoy the "jackpot!" moment, I guess... but personally I'd rather get away from sex scenes completely instead of focusing on them even more heavily.

If you are going to go down that route, that's fine. But the emotional love scenes better come in large amounts and be absolutely stellar in quantity. Otherwise people may feel let down by the feel of the romance in the game.

... That sounded a lot better in my head. But do you see my point?

[Rinji the Bearded]

David Gaider wrote...
Neither do I. I get that some people think we should show nudity in our sex scenes, or have multiple sex scenes... but the reason we shy away from that isn't because of ratings/censorship but because we're not keen on it. Often it just feels gratuitous (and someone can say whatever they like about the Witcher scenes, they were definitely gratuitous -- and that's not a reflection on the quality of the game itself, just the truth), particularly when used as the culmination of a romance... as if sex was the point of romance?

Some people might enjoy the "jackpot!" moment, I guess... but personally I'd rather get away from sex scenes completely instead of focusing on them even more heavily.

Totally agree here.  I, for one, liked the direction DA2 was going in.  The sex scenes in DA:O gave me major secondhand embarrassment (and the community-made mods that followed just made me laugh).    DA2 managed to make something that seemed more personal and intimate (inciting many AWWWWs instead of  EEEEWs), and I'd hate to see a return of the awkwardness, or things becoming more akin to the Witcher.

Alistair's Sexual Predator Face still haunts me to this day.  Virgin my ***.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 25 avril 2012 - 02:42 .

[the_one_54321]

Then just don't have the sex scenes.

Totally serious. If you're going to be classy and not gratuitous, then really be it.

[upsettingshorts]

Firewolf99 wrote...

But do you see my point?

Nope. 

the_one_54321 wrote...

Then just don't have the sex scenes. 

Fine by me.

the_one_54321 wrote... 

Totally serious. If you're going to be classy and not gratuitous, then really be it.

Dragon Age 2 did not have sex scenes.  There was no simulated or implied sexual act taking place.  

They did the James Bond movie thing, which is better.  Die Another Day went further in this respect, and nobody liked it.  Why?  Because it was stupid.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 avril 2012 - 02:48 .

[AkiKishi]

David Gaider wrote...

Neither do I. I get that some people think we should show nudity in our sex scenes, or have multiple sex scenes... but the reason we shy away from that isn't because of ratings/censorship but because we're not keen on it. Often it just feels gratuitous (and someone can say whatever they like about the Witcher scenes, they were definitely gratuitous -- and that's not a reflection on the quality of the game itself, just the truth), particularly when used as the culmination of a romance... as if sex was the point of romance?

Some people might enjoy the "jackpot!" moment, I guess... but personally I'd rather get away from sex scenes completely instead of focusing on them even more heavily.

Then stop writing scenes where people should be naked then sticking clothes on them,it just looks stupid.
That's the difference between DA2 and Witcher2. Witcher 2 does not shy from depicting the material that is written 
You can do romance without sex scenes and make them convincing. But you can't put clothed people in showers and expect the audience to not feel they are being treated like PG13's.

[TEWR]

David Gaider wrote...

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...
As for more skin showing in romance scenes, I'd rather not. It doesn't really bother me, but it isn't something I enjoy watching. I like scenes that are more focused on the emotional aspect of romance rather than the physical. It's enough for me to know that these characters I created got some action in the span of ten years. I don't need to see it happen.

Neither do I. I get that some people think we should show nudity in our sex scenes, or have multiple sex scenes... but the reason we shy away from that isn't because of ratings/censorship but because we're not keen on it. Often it just feels gratuitous (and someone can say whatever they like about the Witcher scenes, they were definitely gratuitous -- and that's not a reflection on the quality of the game itself, just the truth), particularly when used as the culmination of a romance... as if sex was the point of romance?

Some people might enjoy the "jackpot!" moment, I guess... but personally I'd rather get away from sex scenes completely instead of focusing on them even more heavily.

You don't have to show them completely naked during the scenes and getting all raunchy though to really make it look more adult. I'm saying look because it just looks PG-13. But it definitely gives off an aura of being a mature moment.

Really, all that would need to be done -- for me personally anyway -- is just show the characters undressing in a scene tailored to their personalities, where we can see more of their skin in the process.

Then, fade to black if you don't want to do the actual sex itself.

Then, return to the game and show the female wrapped in blankets, but with enough skin visible to convey that she's naked underneath. And if she moves around, the blankets are wrapped around her still.

It'd probably require a fair deal of cinematic work and there might be some clipping issues, but it'd be well enough to look adult as well as feel adult.

I would however like to make my companions naked armor-wise. If I'm traveling with a drunken buffoon that tends to make himself look like an idiot and charges into battle recklessly, I want to make him naked because it reflects his established character.

Also, for the lulz.

But I'll settle for a cameo where said red-haired Dwarf appears naked and drunk riding a gorilla into battle against the Darkspawn.

It doesn't have to show his junk when we're talking to him, but we should at least see his manly chest and chest hair and there should be comments about how he's naked. And drunk. And with a gorilla.

And yes, I realize this is a very weird request. But the weirdness is what makes if funny

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 avril 2012 - 02:51 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Then stop writing scenes where people should be naked then sticking clothes on them,it just looks stupid.
That's the difference between DA2 and Witcher2. Witcher 2 does not shy from depicting the material that is written 
You can do romance without sex scenes and make them convincing. But you can't put clothed people in showers and expect the audience to not feel they are being treated like PG13's.

Witcher 2 doesn't depict "written material."

It depicts porn.

But I can agree that a scene that would suggest nudity (ie Sam's shower scene in ME3) and everyone is clothed, it can appear silly.  But DA2, to me, didn't have this problem.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 25 avril 2012 - 02:47 .

[upsettingshorts]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Then stop writing scenes where people should be naked then sticking clothes on them,it just looks stupid.

I can agree to this.

Samantha and Shepard wearing underwear in the shower was completely ridiculous and ruined anything the scene was trying to achieve.  

However, Dragon Age 2 had no problems whatsoever in this regard.  Origins, on the other hand...

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 avril 2012 - 02:47 .

[the_one_54321]

RinjiRenee wrote...
It depicts porn.

What exactly do you think a sex scene is? Not all porn is XXX.

The Dragon Age sex scenes are porn where the actors inexplicably are still wearing cloths. It's kind of ridiculous.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 25 avril 2012 - 02:48 .

[Dutchess]

Firewolf99 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Neither do I. I get that some people think we should show nudity in our sex scenes, or have multiple sex scenes... but the reason we shy away from that isn't because of ratings/censorship but because we're not keen on it. Often it just feels gratuitous (and someone can say whatever they like about the Witcher scenes, they were definitely gratuitous -- and that's not a reflection on the quality of the game itself, just the truth), particularly when used as the culmination of a romance... as if sex was the point of romance?

Some people might enjoy the "jackpot!" moment, I guess... but personally I'd rather get away from sex scenes completely instead of focusing on them even more heavily.

If you are going to go down that route, that's fine. But the emotional love scenes better come in large amounts and be absolutely stellar in quantity. Otherwise people may feel let down by the feel of the romance in the game.

... That sounded a lot better in my head. But do you see my point?

I do. I don't demand full nude action, but now it sometimes felt a bit short. The oppurtunities to interact with your companions was already fairly limited, and when you get a short kiss and then immediately a fade to black, it goes a bit fast. At least that was what I found in Fenris' case. Suddenly, WHAM! you have that kiss against the wall, and while I was still "ooh, finally", the screen faded to black, and the next thing I saw was Fenris standing fully dressed in front of the hearth and then dumping me. Wait, what? 
With Isabela, on the other hand, I did not experience this. The scene where Hawke is carrying her into the bedroom, and she is throwing away all her daggers, is fun, looks good, and after some more kissing on the bed, the screen fades to black. That felt more finished, and the timing of the fade to black was better, despite the fact the characters still had all their clothes on. 
Same with Anders. Kiss, and then Hawke pulls him towards the bed. Fade to black. Okay, good. They made it to the bed! Why doesn't Fenris make it to the bed? 

[Rinji the Bearded]

the_one_54321 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
It depicts porn.

What exactly do you think a sex scene is? Not all porn is XXX.

The Dragon Age sex scenes are porn where the actors inexplicably are still wearing cloths. It's kind of ridiculous.

A sex scene in a game showing as much the Witcher does is intended to be gratuitous and titilating, not anything character-building or plot-relevant.  That's the difference.

The DA:O sex scenes were ridiculous, and I'm glad they're gone.  I hope they stay gone.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 25 avril 2012 - 02:50 .

[AkiKishi]

RinjiRenee wrote...
Witcher 2 doesn't depict "written material."

It depicts porn.

But I can agree that a scene that would suggest nudity (ie Sam's shower scene in ME3) and everyone is clothed, it can appear silly.  But DA2, to me, didn't have this problem.

Maybe it's a cultural thing. It depicts raw sex. It's hardly porn.

The seminal sex scene is probably the one in the lake.

[upsettingshorts]

renjility wrote...
They made it to the bed! Why doesn't Fenris make it to the bed? 

Uh....

Did you listen to Fenris at all?  The whole experience made him uncomfortable and he wanted to get out of there.

The reason the scenes are different is because the characters are different.  Comparing them and asking why one has more content and the other has less is to miss the point completely.

You can have a long scene with Isabela, sure, especially if your character is interested romantically.  If you were just having fun, the scene is much, much shorter.

[the_one_54321]

RinjiRenee wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
It depicts porn.

What exactly do you think a sex scene is? Not all porn is XXX.

A sex scene in a game showing as much the Witcher does is intended to be gratuitous and titilating, not anything character-building or plot-relevant.  That's the difference.

All depictions of the act of sex are intended to be gratuitous or titillating. This is not a film festival. Video games have not come that far yet. If you don't want it to be gratuitous and titillating, then just don't include it. There is no workable middle ground. Especially with the uncanny valley looming.

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...

All depictions of the act of sex are intended to be gratuitous or titillating. This is not a film festival. Video games have not come that far yet. If you don't want it to be gratuitous and titillating, then just don't include it. There is no workable middle ground. Especially with the uncanny valley looming.

Nope.

Any scene can inform on character.  ANY SCENE.  To assert otherwise is to betray an ignorance of the medium.

Rinji is arguing that TW2's do no such thing.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 avril 2012 - 02:54 .

[Dutchess]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

renjility wrote...
They made it to the bed! Why doesn't Fenris make it to the bed? 

Uh....

Did you listen to Fenris at all?  The whole experience made him uncomfortable and he wanted to get out of there.

The reason the scenes are different is because the characters are different.  Comparing them and asking why one has more content and the other has less is to miss the point completely.

You can have a long scene with Isabela, sure, especially if your character is interested romantically.  If you were just having fun, the scene is much, much shorter.

I did listen, and that was not my point. I know why Fenris dumped me and all that. But still, the follow-up scene is playing in the bedroom, and Hawke is undressed, so obviously a lot more happened. My point is just there seems to be a larger jump in Fenris' case during the black screen, resulting in a less smooth transition when you get to see the characters again.

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
All depictions of the act of sex are intended to be gratuitous or titillating. This is not a film festival. Video games have not come that far yet. If you don't want it to be gratuitous and titillating, then just don't include it. There is no workable middle ground. Especially with the uncanny valley looming.

Nope.

Compelling argument.

[Rinji the Bearded]

the_one_54321 wrote...
All depictions of the act of sex are intended to be gratuitous or titillating. This is not a film festival. Video games have not come that far yet. If you don't want it to be gratuitous and titillating, then just don't include it. There is no workable middle ground. Especially with the uncanny valley looming.

Not all depictions of sex are meant to be titilating.

Also, my argument is that TW's sex scene are nothing but gratuitous and do nothing for its story  or characters.  They just further compound that Geralt is insatiable and can't keep it in his pants, and that Triss fulfills this need for him (and little else).

Which is why DA2 did it so much better than DA:O.  There was intimacy without the hilarity or uncanny valley going on.  And really, I want it to stay that way.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 25 avril 2012 - 02:59 .

[David Gaider]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
You don't have to show them completely naked during the scenes and getting all raunchy though to really make it look more adult. I'm saying look because it just looks PG-13. But it definitely gives off an aura of being a mature moment.

Really, all that would need to be done -- for me personally anyway -- is just show the characters undressing in a scene tailored to their personalities, where we can see more of their skin in the process.

Ummm... yeah.

What you're describing is not simpler, it's actually more difficult. That's not clothing they're wearing. It's part of their model. So they can't "undress", or even start to. It would actually be more complex to show a model disrobing than it would to simply show them naked.

And despite the fact that some people seem to think we should just go ahead and show nudity, or that casual nudity is somehow more "adult" (or that it should simply be de rigeur in dark fantasy), I don't think we'd really be missing much by not having sex scenes at all (or the "afterglow" talk). At the very least, I wouldn't have to listen to people moan about how there's not enough skin, how they wanted different variations and positions, etc. etc. Frankly, such talk is more embarassing to listen to than interesting.

This doesn't mean they won't be there, as my opinion isn't the only one that matters, but my preference would be to have the "culmination" scene of a romance vary according to the character. Sexual depictions are fine for sexual characters (like, say, Isabela)... but even then if that leads to people going on about how they needed to see Isabela's ****** or Anders' ass in order for it to be a "real" or "adult" romance... then I'd just rather not contribute to it. And I think that's all I'll say about that.