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[upsettingshorts]

 

the_one_54321 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
When you show two attractive peopel naked, there's almost always only one reason for it.

I'm gonna post this quote on Tumblr and see how long it takes for someone to point out that it supports rape culture.

Please consider rape scenes to be an exception to everything I've said. Except the part where I talked about the rape scene between Danny and Drogo, that was brought up. Where, you know, I agreed with the other poster about it being meant to be uncomfortable. 

You might also note the qualifier I included in the form of "almost always." Meaning that there are some exceptions. Of which rape is obviously one of the exceptions. 

 

You might wanna Google "rape culture." Your response indicates a lack of familiarity with the term. It's about more than rape. It's a mindset.

However, a prolonged discussion about it is off-topic for this thread.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 avril 2012 - 03:56 .

[wsandista]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

 

the_one_54321 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
When you show two attractive peopel naked, there's almost always only one reason for it.

I'm gonna post this quote on Tumblr and see how long it takes for someone to point out that it supports rape culture.

Please consider rape scenes to be an exception to everything I've said. Except the part where I talked about the rape scene between Danny and Drogo, that was brought up. Where, you know, I agreed with the other poster about it being meant to be uncomfortable. 

You might also note the qualifier I included in the form of "almost always." Meaning that there are some exceptions. Of which rape is obviously one of the exceptions. 

 

You might wanna Google "rape culture." Your response indicates a lack of familiarity with the term. It's about more than rape. It's a mindset.

He's right though, when in media atractive people are shown nude it is almost always one reason for it: sex appeal. I mean to go with the game of thrones example there is a reason why the prostitutes are shown nude after sex and Robert was not: because not many would like to see a large naked man.

[Sutekh]

David Gaider wrote...
Often it just feels gratuitous (and someone can say whatever they like about the Witcher scenes, they were definitely gratuitous -- and that's not a reflection on the quality of the game itself, just the truth), particularly when used as the culmination of a romance... as if sex was the point of romance?

That's exactly what bugs me so much with DA2 romances - and thanks for articulating this for me because I just couldn't put my finger on it.

You have that very nice rise to climax that starts in Act I, with the flirting and the dancing around each other. In Act II, things get a bit more serious to finally culminate in the romance scene proper, then the bed scene and the Morning After. So far, very good. Fade to black, clothes on / off, I don't really care so long as the emotion is there. I may have a hard time believing that it always takes three years to get to that, but that's the way the game is structured, so that's okay.

And then... nothing. Or so little it isn't worth mentioning, really. With the exception of Fenris who has a two parts thing resolved in Act III, there are nearly no romantic interaction following The Sex. So it does feel like The Sex is the point, the final step.

It wouldn't take much, for me, to change that. Little cute nicknames when you click on the LI, for instance. A little bit of radiant AI for the live-in, like having them move about the mansion and do their stuff instead of staying at the very same spot, saying the very same thing. Always. As is, it feels as though they're just visiting, which is emphasized by the fact that when you do talk to them in Questioning Belief of for quest briefing, you do so at their place. The opportunity to kiss or hug on player's initiative - even in fixed places and times, if that's a problem re: cinematics. And the opportunity to break up, because romance is also about that.

So nothing major, just little things in the background.

In Legacy and MotA, you had a glimpse of how things could have been. Even small reactions to flirting with Tallis made the whole thing more organic and "real".

[the_one_54321]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Ever heard of the term 'gratuitous violence'? How about 'gratuitous blood', like in a horror movie? I found the blood and gore aspects of Pan's Labyrinth gratuitous. I didn't find them particularly titillating or arousing.

Well yeah, but that's not sex or nudity...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
You're still conflating the terms, and thus still wrong. I agree that the scene is gratuitous. Nothing that happened in the scene couldn't have happened with audio but obscured visual. However, when I saw it I was more horrified than aroused or titillated. It was pretty gross, because it wasn't celebrated or treated like a normal romance scene. The goal wasn't to make the viewer feel aroused or titillated. The goal was to show the depravity of these two characters in a way that the viewer can't ignore or downplay. I doubt many people find the idea of incest to be particularly arousing. Perhaps you differ in this from me.

Showing them naked, or in the middle of the act wasn't needed to achieve any of that. Then what was the point of showing them naked? 

When I see breasts on screen, typically my thought is that "sex sells." Because you almost never need to show the breasts.

[LolaLei]

I actually liked that Anders blew up the Chantry regardless, it was clear he had no control over justice and the Mages plight... Sometimes love just isn't enough to save someone. Plus if he hadn't blown **** up then the whole Mage/Templar rebellion wouldn't have kicked off or been as poignant.

I would've liked to have more conversations with him about his past and interactions with him, just to get a deeper feeling of connection to his character. Same goes with all the companions, I just enjoy learning about interesting people.

[Sejborg]

David Gaider wrote...

Ummm... yeah.

What you're describing is not simpler, it's actually more difficult. That's not clothing they're wearing. It's part of their model. So they can't "undress", or even start to. It would actually be more complex to show a model disrobing than it would to simply show them naked.

Nobody said making games would be easy. 
Or did they...? 


For me, nudity is not necessary the goal. I just want the romances to show even more intimacy. That is easily shown with some nudity. But for me it is not only about getting the sex scene. But the sexscene feels like the only payoff we get from having a LI. But how about taking your LI's hand in your own as you stare out at the horizon as an army of Qunari is marching against you. I believe you can find more and better little things that can show that there is a romance going on. Just some little things would make it better I believe.

I don't want a huge wedding or something like that. But how about having a LI give a single quick spank on the PC's butt and say: "go get 'em" before some fight? Little stuff like that to show they like eachother. 

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
You might wanna Google "rape culture." Your response indicates a lack of familiarity with the term. It's about more than rape. It's a mindset.

Way to take things out of context. You should keep in mind that what I've been saying is that none of this is necessary and it would be fine if they just left it all out.

[chuckwells62]

I think that I would have enjoyed having the option of romancing an NPC character, wholly separate from party members, in order to really focus on building that romance in a non-combat setting (mostly between quests; but with occasional tension created by the story events lending weight to this relationship). As a guy, I thought that it would have been great fun to woo any of the following: Arianni, Athenril, Lady Elegant, Macha, Norah, Ruvena, or Mistress Selby.

Modifié par chuckwells62, 25 avril 2012 - 04:12 .

[hoorayforicecream]

the_one_54321 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Ever heard of the term 'gratuitous violence'? How about 'gratuitous blood', like in a horror movie? I found the blood and gore aspects of Pan's Labyrinth gratuitous. I didn't find them particularly titillating or arousing.

Well yeah, but that's not sex or nudity...

Please return the goalposts to their original position. They were fine where they were, thanks. When Rinji said titillating or arousing, Rinji did not mean gratuitous. These are not the same terms. They should not be treated the same. You treat them the same, and are therefore wrong.

Showing them naked, or in the middle of the act wasn't needed to achieve any of that. Then what was the point of showing them naked? 

When I see breasts on screen, typically my thought is that "sex sells." Because you almost never need to show the breasts.

Showing them naked was probably not necessary. But showing them in the middle of the act, rather than simply talking about it, was. It provides incontrovertible evidence that the characters are doing something rather disgusting to people raised in a society with a heavy incest taboo. It makes the scene more real to the viewer to actually see it, rather than talk about it in the same way it makes a battle scene more real to see it than to have it simply described. The purpose of a visual medium is "show, don't tell". This applies to the more disgusting aspects of the medium as well.

[the_one_54321]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Ever heard of the term 'gratuitous violence'? How about 'gratuitous blood', like in a horror movie? I found the blood and gore aspects of Pan's Labyrinth gratuitous. I didn't find them particularly titillating or arousing.

Well yeah, but that's not sex or nudity...

Please return the goalposts to their original position. They were fine where they were, thanks. When Rinji said titillating or arousing, Rinji did not mean gratuitous. These are not the same terms. They should not be treated the same. You treat them the same, and are therefore wrong.

Showing them naked, or in the middle of the act wasn't needed to achieve any of that. Then what was the point of showing them naked? 

When I see breasts on screen, typically my thought is that "sex sells." Because you almost never need to show the breasts.

Showing them naked was probably not necessary. But showing them in the middle of the act, rather than simply talking about it, was. It provides incontrovertible evidence that the characters are doing something rather disgusting to people raised in a society with a heavy incest taboo. It makes the scene more real to the viewer to actually see it, rather than talk about it in the same way it makes a battle scene more real to see it than to have it simply described. The purpose of a visual medium is "show, don't tell". This applies to the more disgusting aspects of the medium as well.

Ok, point on all that. But what about when it's not something that's taboo? 

[wsandista]

chuckwells62 wrote...

I think that I would have enjoyed having the option of romancing an NPC character, wholly separate from party members, in order to really focus on building that romance in a non-combat setting (mostly between quests; but with occasional tension created by the story events lending weight to this relationship). As a guy, I thought that it would have been great fun to woo any of the following: Arianni, Athenril, Lady Elegant, Macha, Norah, Ruvena, or Mistress Selby.

Sounds like a good idea if properly implemented, ME3 tried at it and worked well for the NPCs on the ship, but not so great for the previous LI's who are not squadmates.

[LolaLei]

Sejborg: Y'know what, that's exactly it! The intimate moments. For me personally I'd be more inclined to see touching scenes where my character and his/LI are having a personal talk or comforting each other and giving each other sweet little gestures like touching the other persons face during an intimate moment (like the Kaidan/Shepard dinner date in ME3) etc than a naked sex scene. Maybe it's better for sex to be implied rather than have a full on shag fest in a Dragon Age game?

[the_one_54321]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...
Isn't it possible to have the two persons involved lying under a sheet or something letting only their arms and shoulders show?

I actually imagine that this would be really hard to do in a video game. Because of collision detection between the models and the sheet.

But your overall premise is something I agree with.

[happy_daiz]

There were parts of each romance that I did like (even Sebastian's), but there just wasn't enough of those wonderful moments.

As has been said previously, the time jumps probably factored quite a bit into it, but I'd rather have the romances be more organic. There shouldn't be a "this happens in Act 1", "this happens in Act 2" as far as romances go. If you want additional quest-related content to flow that way, great, but love progresses at the pace of the people involved, right? If you don't want to talk to your LI very often, it should progress at a slower pace than someone who Chatty Kathys them (and maybe they should even react to that with a "dang, you ask a lot of questions"). But allow us to set the pacing.

I should probably mention that I'm a girl. And I am part of the audience. As a female, my views towards romance probably differ quite a bit from the normal male point of view. I prefer lots of chit-chat, and getting-to-know-you conversations. Courtship, if you will. I need to feel close to someone to go to the next step, and for me, that happens with talking, laughing, joking, etc. Interacting. And information. I want to know intimate details, and I want to share them myself. If you're going to go down a "romance" path in a video game, art should somewhat parallel reality, yes?

Overall, I get the impression that romances were written for a male audience. Not a whole lot of conversation, a focus on the "big sex night", then it's over. But I'm not even convinced that's what the male audience wants.

If you really wanted to make me (and probably a lot of other people) happy, bring back the LI interactions, a la DAO, where we were able to kiss Alistair wherever and whenever we wanted. And give us new conversations to have as time goes on.

If you want to make me absolutely jubilant, allow me to do all that with Cullen.

[Lenimph]

In terms of the actual sex scene Liara's in ME3 is the best one I've seen in a videogame even if Shepard is in her underwear.

Use that as a refrence. K thx bai

[LolaLei]

happy_daiz: Now that's what I'm talking about! For that alone I shall give you my first born... I'll make one especially for ya!

[TEWR]

Sutekh wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Often it just feels gratuitous (and someone can say whatever they like about the Witcher scenes, they were definitely gratuitous -- and that's not a reflection on the quality of the game itself, just the truth), particularly when used as the culmination of a romance... as if sex was the point of romance?

That's exactly what bugs me so much with DA2 romances - and thanks for articulating this for me because I just couldn't put my finger on it.

You have that very nice rise to climax that starts in Act I, with the flirting and the dancing around each other. In Act II, things get a bit more serious to finally culminate in the romance scene proper, then the bed scene and the Morning After. So far, very good. Fade to black, clothes on / off, I don't really care so long as the emotion is there. I may have a hard time believing that it always takes three years to get to that, but that's the way the game is structured, so that's okay.

And then... nothing. Or so little it isn't worth mentioning, really. With the exception of Fenris who has a two parts thing resolved in Act III, there are nearly no romantic interaction following The Sex. So it does feel like The Sex is the point, the final step.

Very much this.

I chalk this up to being more due to how sparse interaction with the companions is. We have the same amount of dialogue with companions in DAII as we did in DAO -- maybe slightly more.

That to me is the problem.

We have what basically translates to a year's worth of dialogue in a game that is playable for 3-4 years.

It wouldn't take much, for me, to change that. Little cute nicknames when you click on the LI, for instance. A little bit of radiant AI for the live-in, like having them move about the mansion and do their stuff instead of staying at the very same spot, saying the very same thing. Always. As is, it feels as though they're just visiting, which is emphasized by the fact that when you do talk to them in Questioning Belief of for quest briefing, you do so at their place. The opportunity to kiss or hug on player's initiative - even in fixed places and times, if that's a problem re: cinematics. And the opportunity to break up, because romance is also about that.

And this.

I miss being able to kiss my LI when I wanted, or talk to them when I wanted, or do other things when I wanted. Not necessarily where, but when.

Much of what I learn about Merrill is relegated to the codex that I automatically obtain at the beginning of the Acts.

But what if I want Hawke to ask her about these things? What if I want to see Merrill working on her Eluvian instead of remarking on how clean her house usually is? Or what if I want to see her sitting down to read a book at her desk, outside of a cutscene?

To me, DAII did need more interaction with the companions.

[berelinde]

I'm ambivalent about nudity and more graphic sex scenes in video games. If it's there, fine. If it's not there, also fine. But if it *is* there, don't make me look at bumping underwear.

I didn't mind the way DA2 handled it, except that I would have liked the option of being able to initiate intimacy at any appropriate time. Hugs and kisses just about anywhere, heavier stuff in camp. Fade-to-black is fine, but no more zipper sounds, please.

This would probably be impossible to implement, but it would be really awesome if your LI said "Not until you've had a bath" if you asked for a kiss after combat.

[happy_daiz]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Oh, and Happy_daiz BW has stated that LI interaction will return in DA3.

Well, color me happy!

LolaLei wrote...

happy_daiz: Now that's what I'm talking about! For that alone I shall give you my first born... I'll make one especially for ya!

LOL, thanks! Although I'm pretty sure my cats, ferrets, and turtles will have absolutely no idea what to do with a kid.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 25 avril 2012 - 04:31 .

[Maria Caliban]

RinjiRenee wrote...

I think a lot if not most of the GoT scenes were intended to disgust the audience, even if they did go overboard with it in the TV show.

GRRM spends a lots of time describing nipples, fat pink *****s, and moorish swamps for a man trying to disgust his audience.

And while he writes interesting scenes, there's very little in the way of structure of planning. While you could argue some of them serve a larger thematic or plot point, it's difficult to argue all of them do.

Contrast this to Joe Ambercrombie whose sex scenes often make the participants look foolish or Scott R Bakker's explicit hentai rape fantasies.

[Lenimph]

Sutekh wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Often it just feels gratuitous (and someone can say whatever they like about the Witcher scenes, they were definitely gratuitous -- and that's not a reflection on the quality of the game itself, just the truth), particularly when used as the culmination of a romance... as if sex was the point of romance?

That's exactly what bugs me so much with DA2 romances - and thanks for articulating this for me because I just couldn't put my finger on it.

And then... nothing. Or so little it isn't worth mentioning, really. With the exception of Fenris who has a two parts thing resolved in Act III, there are nearly no romantic interaction following The Sex. So it does feel like The Sex is the point, the final step.

Gonna have to disagree with Isabela. The sex scene in her case is more like the beginning of the romance...

[Rinji the Bearded]

Maria Caliban wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

I think a lot if not most of the GoT scenes were intended to disgust the audience, even if they did go overboard with it in the TV show.

GRRM spends a lots of time describing nipples, fat pink *****s, and moorish swamps for a man trying to disgust his audience.

And while he writes interesting scenes, there's very little in the way of structure of planning. While you could argue some of them serve a larger thematic or plot point, it's difficult to argue all of them do.

Contrast this to Joe Ambercrombie whose sex scenes often make the participants look foolish or Scott R Bakker's explicit hentai rape fantasies.

I've never thought GRRM's depictions were sexy, but that could be me just being weirded out by GRRM's obsessions.  Many people are very disturbed by it, and I'm sure he'll never confirm one way or the other what the true intents are.

But I was disgusted.  I'm not sure if I've met anyone who was exactly thrilled by his vivid descriptions.  Gratuitous?  Hell yes.  Sexy and/or titillating?  I'm not convinced.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 25 avril 2012 - 04:38 .