649 réponses à ce sujet

[Cantina]

David Gaider wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
You don't have to show them completely naked during the scenes and getting all raunchy though to really make it look more adult. I'm saying look because it just looks PG-13. But it definitely gives off an aura of being a mature moment.

Really, all that would need to be done -- for me personally anyway -- is just show the characters undressing in a scene tailored to their personalities, where we can see more of their skin in the process.

Ummm... yeah.

What you're describing is not simpler, it's actually more difficult. That's not clothing they're wearing. It's part of their model. So they can't "undress", or even start to. It would actually be more complex to show a model disrobing than it would to simply show them naked.

And despite the fact that some people seem to think we should just go ahead and show nudity, or that casual nudity is somehow more "adult" (or that it should simply be de rigeur in dark fantasy), I don't think we'd really be missing much by not having sex scenes at all (or the "afterglow" talk). At the very least, I wouldn't have to listen to people moan about how there's not enough skin, how they wanted different variations and positions, etc. etc. Frankly, such talk is more embarassing to listen to than interesting.

This doesn't mean they won't be there, as my opinion isn't the only one that matters, but my preference would be to have the "culmination" scene of a romance vary according to the character. Sexual depictions are fine for sexual characters (like, say, Isabela)... but even then if that leads to people going on about how they needed to see Isabela's ****** or Anders' ass in order for it to be a "real" or "adult" romance... then I'd just rather not contribute to it. And I think that's all I'll say about that.

Ok, Mr. Gaider, <plops down> let us have a talk.

As some have mentioned here the romance seemed less smoothed out then they were in Origins. In Act 1, the romance can be started and by Act 2, you have the chance to cement the relationship. However, by Act 3 the romance seems to fizzle out, even though it does not, it feels that way.

I would like to know why is it if I choose to side with the mages and save Anders life, then choose to run away with him my character does not get that last “I love you” and a kiss? I felt like I was being punished and I chose the wrong side.

When it comes to the sex scenes, I am not seeking porn. I do not need to see Isabella’s ****** or Anders bare ass (although being a huge fan of Anders, I would not say no to that). There are tasteful ways of making a sex scene without having to show full on nudity. I just don’t find it appealing seeing two people lay on the bed, then ten seconds later, be up, fully clothed and the bed made. Anders comes up speaks to, you talk back and he leaves. It sucked the romance out of the room. It felt more like a one-night stand then a romantic night of feelings and passion.

Romance scenes can be done tastefully without coming off as porn. I know it is a little difficult for you all to do such scenes especially when you are choosing to do different companion body models. However, if you are going to go the route of having romance scenes, at least take a little time to create the male’s upper body. With someone like Isabella, you can easily get around this obstacle by having a sheet wrapped around her or something to that affect. It is all about giving the illusion by using tricks to give a romantic setting.


Just take a look at this video from ME…this is tasteful and romantic, not porn at all.

[brushyourteeth]

David Gaider wrote...
Often it just feels gratuitous (and someone can say whatever they like about the Witcher scenes, they were definitely gratuitous -- and that's not a reflection on the quality of the game itself, just the truth), particularly when used as the culmination of a romance... as if sex was the point of romance?

Some people might enjoy the "jackpot!" moment, I guess... but personally I'd rather get away from sex scenes completely instead of focusing on them even more heavily.

The priiiiiiiiiiiiiize.

David Gaider wrote...

And despite the fact that some people seem to think we should just go ahead and show nudity, or that casual nudity is somehow more "adult" (or that it should simply be de rigeur in dark fantasy), I don't think we'd really be missing much by not having sex scenes at all (or the "afterglow" talk). At the very least, I wouldn't have to listen to people moan about how there's not enough skin, how they wanted different variations and positions, etc. etc. Frankly, such talk is more embarassing to listen to than interesting.

This doesn't mean they won't be there, as my opinion isn't the only one that matters, but my preference would be to have the "culmination" scene of a romance vary according to the character. Sexual depictions are fine for sexual characters (like, say, Isabela)... but even then if that leads to people going on about how they needed to see Isabela's ****** or Anders' ass in order for it to be a "real" or "adult" romance... then I'd just rather not contribute to it. And I think that's all I'll say about that.

All of this, a million times.

[BubbleDncr]

David Gaider wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Yet Anders goes Kamikaze terrorist no matter what, while Alistair can end up as 1.) King, 2.) Warden, 3.) Drunk/Exile, or 4.) Martyr and if you romanced him, the Warden's status can change accordingly too, whether thats as Queen or mistress or just staying as a fellow Warden or a widow of sorts. I think thats some reason people like it, is that its quite variable at the end. People like having choices/consequences like that. So while Anders might "change" based on friendship/rivalry, what does it matter if in the end he gets funneled down to the same plot point of terrorist no matter what? I think thats what people dislike most- having the illusion of some reactivity or choice only to have it smushed into a one size fits all ending that makes it obvious nothing you've had a hand in previously really mattered. Thats one of my major issues with DA2 overall, not just the romances.

If one's qualification for a good romance is that they need to be able to make decisions that affect them at the end, then fair enough-- though that was hardly the case for all of DAO's romances either, or really for any of the romances we've written. Being able to make decisions for your romance has never been the point and never will be. But if someone likes it when it happens, that's fine.

I do find it a little frightening, however, that someone could consider making decisions at the very end of a character's plot to be a "character arc"... or that Anders having the same event at the end of his plot represents the lack of an arc. Seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding between game and story there. Not sure whether it's mine or theirs... but I'm willing to bet there's a whole bunch of people eager to tell me just how it should be properly done.

I found Alistair and Anders to be on a similar level. With Alistair, the OMG moment was the conversation with Riorden before the final battle, and having to decide whether or not to do the ritual so that you both could live. For Anders, it was pretty OMG WTF ANDERS?!?! WHY DID YOU DO THAT?!?!?! And then having to decide if you were going to stick by him, even tho he just shattered the world.

If both characters were love interests in the same game, I would not say that Anders' story arc would need to be changed at all - rather, I would say all the other romances in the game (like Zevran and Fenris) would need to be elevated to have the same level of impact as both his and Alistair's.

Modifié par BubbleDncr, 25 avril 2012 - 06:18 .

[esper]

BubbleDncr wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Yet Anders goes Kamikaze terrorist no matter what, while Alistair can end up as 1.) King, 2.) Warden, 3.) Drunk/Exile, or 4.) Martyr and if you romanced him, the Warden's status can change accordingly too, whether thats as Queen or mistress or just staying as a fellow Warden or a widow of sorts. I think thats some reason people like it, is that its quite variable at the end. People like having choices/consequences like that. So while Anders might "change" based on friendship/rivalry, what does it matter if in the end he gets funneled down to the same plot point of terrorist no matter what? I think thats what people dislike most- having the illusion of some reactivity or choice only to have it smushed into a one size fits all ending that makes it obvious nothing you've had a hand in previously really mattered. Thats one of my major issues with DA2 overall, not just the romances.

If one's qualification for a good romance is that they need to be able to make decisions that affect them at the end, then fair enough-- though that was hardly the case for all of DAO's romances either, or really for any of the romances we've written. Being able to make decisions for your romance has never been the point and never will be. But if someone likes it when it happens, that's fine.

I do find it a little frightening, however, that someone could consider making decisions at the very end of a character's plot to be a "character arc"... or that Anders having the same event at the end of his plot represents the lack of an arc. Seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding between game and story there. Not sure whether it's mine or theirs... but I'm willing to bet there's a whole bunch of people eager to tell me just how it should be properly done.

I found Alistair and Anders to be on a similar level. With Alistair, the OMG moment was the conversation with Riorden before the final battle, and having to decide whether or not to do the ritual so that you both could live. For Anders, it was pretty OMG WTF ANDERS?!?! WHY DID YOU DO THAT?!?!?! And then having to decide if you were going to stick by him, even tho he just shattered the world.

If both characters were love interests in the same game, I would not say that Anders' story arc would need to be changed at all - rather, I would say all the other romances in the game (like Zevran and Fenris) would need to be elevated to have the same level of impact as both his and Alistair's.

This! Som much.

Modifié par esper, 25 avril 2012 - 06:27 .

[Sylvanpyxie]

In regards to the "Sex Scenes" "Romantic Interludes" "Fade to Black Implied Sexy-Times" "Jolly Roger's Happy Time" whatever you want to call these cut-scenes, discussion a few pages back...

My only *real* question is why?

To everyone that's fighting to get more content in these 15-30 second scenes, i'm genuinely curious as to why it really matters... If it was regarding more dialogue before and after, i'd understand it. But the 15-30 second cut-scene? Whether or not they're wearing clothes? I'm genuinely baffled as to why.

Is it any less of a romance if there's no cut-scene to imply consummation of the relationship?
Is it not enough to just maintain romantic dialogue and allow the Player's imagination to fill in any blanks that might be there?

I'm not looking to pick a fight or start up a ruckus, I'm *genuinely* trying to understand why it's so important.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 25 avril 2012 - 06:33 .

[Pasquale1234]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Question: You say that the dress is a part of the model. Would it be possible to make a blanket a part of the model as well in a sex scene?

I'm pretty sure they could - but it would take zots.

Zots are a finite resource, and they need to be invested in places that offer the greatest return.

The real question, then, is whether it is more beneficial to develop a blanket-wearing model that would be utilized only in one short scene for those players who choose to romance that character versus an additional armor profile that could benefit all players for longer durations.  I think I know which one I would choose.

[Cantina]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

In regards to the "Sex Scenes" "Romantic Interludes" "Fade to Black Implied Sexy-Times" "Jolly Roger's Happy Time" whatever you want to call these cut-scenes, discussion a few pages back...

My only *real* question is why?

To everyone that's fighting to get more content in these 15-30 second scenes, i'm genuinely curious as to why it really matters... If it was regarding more dialogue before and after, i'd understand it. But the 15-30 second cut-scene? Whether or not they're wearing clothes? I'm genuinely baffled as to why.

Is it any less of a romance if there's no cut-scene to imply consummation of the relationship?
Is it not enough to just maintain romantic dialogue and allow the Player's imagination to fill in any blanks that might be there?

I'm not looking to pick a fight or start up a ruckus, I'm *genuinely* trying to understand why it's so important.

Immersion and/or for role-play purposes.

Having something as small as getting a drink at a bar then going to something larger like having sex with one of your companions can have a much bigger impact on how the player feels about the game then some might think. Players (like me) feel the more involved you are the more you feel you are a part of the story. The less interaction you have the less you feel involved.

[Atakuma]

David Gaider wrote...

This doesn't mean they won't be there, as my opinion isn't the only one that matters, but my preference would be to have the "culmination" scene of a romance vary according to the character. Sexual depictions are fine for sexual characters (like, say, Isabela)... but even then if that leads to people going on about how they needed to see Isabela's ****** or Anders' ass in order for it to be a "real" or "adult" romance... then I'd just rather not contribute to it. And I think that's all I'll say about that.

I'd be fine with this approach, since it would fix my main problem with sex being the usual end point to the romances.

[the_one_54321]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
The purpose of any scene is to evoke a particular feeling/reaction in the viewer/player.

As I mentioned earlier, this is hardly the Sundance Film Festival. When they give you a closeup of Miranda's ass, it's so you can stare at Dat Ass ™.

[brushyourteeth]

Cantina wrote...

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

*snip*

Is it any less of a romance if there's no cut-scene to imply consummation of the relationship?
Is it not enough to just maintain romantic dialogue and allow the Player's imagination to fill in any blanks that might be there?

I'm not looking to pick a fight or start up a ruckus, I'm *genuinely* trying to understand why it's so important.

Immersion and/or for role-play purposes.

Having something as small as getting a drink at a bar then going to something larger like having sex with one of your companions can have a much bigger impact on how the player feels about the game then some might think. Players (like me) feel the more involved you are the more you feel you are a part of the story. The less interaction you have the less you feel involved.

Granted, but what if that interaction was replaced by something just as meaningful? Less sex in a game doesn't have to mean less interaction.

[the_one_54321]

Kossith Romance <3

[LolaLei]

I wouldn't mind a Kossith female companion, I bet she'd be awesome. I wouldn't mind playing as a Kossith either actually.

[brushyourteeth]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Kossith Romance <3

"the Qunari act is.... unpleasant."

Bahaha. I've been wondering lately whether that was a bluff, and what it might mean for a relationship with a kossith.

[JustifiablyDefenestrated]

David Gaider wrote...

If one's qualification for a good romance is that they need to be able to make decisions that affect them at the end, then fair enough-- though that was hardly the case for all of DAO's romances either, or really for any of the romances we've written. Being able to make decisions for your romance has never been the point and never will be. But if someone likes it when it happens, that's fine.

I do find it a little frightening, however, that someone could consider making decisions at the very end of a character's plot to be a "character arc"... or that Anders having the same event at the end of his plot represents the lack of an arc. Seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding between game and story there. Not sure whether it's mine or theirs... but I'm willing to bet there's a whole bunch of people eager to tell me just how it should be properly done.

In my opinion, the most compelling romances are the ones that challenge my own beliefs, rather than the other way around. 

I liked the fact that we couldn't change Ander's actions.  His philosophical beliefs are so deeply ensconsed that they are part of who he is and, ultimately, it forces the player to evaluate there own position in relation to those beliefs. If we could stop Anders from blowing up the Chantry, I imagine that almost everyone would choose that option and, as a result, the decision between supporting the templars of the mages would have much less value. Although you could try to change his mind (and ultimately change his opinion on Justice/Vengeance), I felt like that was more of a reflection of the player's own ideology than Anders'. 

Similarly, in the Fenris arc, if you take the rivalry path, it is described as "agreeing to disagree". Honestly, it would be kind of a let down if you could somehow convince Fenris that all "delicate mage-flowers" were perfectly harmless. All that would do is trivialize the issues that his character represents.

Also, as a non sequitur, the Isabela/Aveline conflict was awesome. Pure gold.

Modifié par JustifiablyDefenestrated, 25 avril 2012 - 08:55 .

[Maria Caliban]

Filament wrote...

But I am seeking porn.

We're all lying in the gutter, but some of us enjoy it down here.

[schalafi]

I don't think many of us are asking for porn love scenes, just a bit more realism. I mean, how realistic is it for Anders to be in the bed with his LI fully clothed down to wearing his boots, and having a knife still in his belt? Plus all you can see of the LI is her/his arm.

I find it odd that outside of the mansion Hawke can parade around in underwear, but inside must wear the strange lounging outfit even through the romance scene.

What I would like to have seen was a shirtless Anders, and in my game, a female Hawke under the covers with maybe shoulders and arm showing. It would have been nice to see a kiss in bed before getting up and being dressed. Hawke could have accompanied Anders to the front door and kissed him goodbye.

In other words, although I liked most of the dialogue during the love scenes, the little touches of affection were missing. Things that ordinary people in love would do with someone they loved.

[Mike_Neel]

Probably a bit late to the conversation.

As far as sex scenes go I think ME3 found the perfect middle ground. I know bioware has been talking about finding a middle ground for DAIII and I think ME3 is the best place to look.

It's not as in your face or gratuitous as the Witchers but it's not as hokey as ME2s or even to a degree DAII.

It's a good balance I'd like to see brought to the Thedas setting. It's not afraid to show digital skin but its still demure enough to be acceptable to a lot of people.

[Esbatty]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

PurebredCorn wrote...

Esbatty wrote...

KOSSITH. LOVE. INTEREST.

A strapping male kossith love interest would be pretty cool. What magnificent stature! Plus, shirtless. I imagine the romance dialogue would be a delightfully funny bonus as well.

Either Maraas or a female horned Kossith. Preferably she should also be Tal-Vashoth.

In fact, it's my belief that Maraas will be the Kossith companion in DA3. I've long since belived this to be the case.

These humans understand! 

...

And some might be thinking "But 'Batty (I let some call me Batty) don't you exclusively enjoy the company of breastesseses?" And the answer is yes, but I also roll Lady PCs, and Lady PCs have needs. Heated prybar related needs. <3

[shootist70]

David Gaider wrote...

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...
As for more skin showing in romance scenes, I'd rather not. It doesn't really bother me, but it isn't something I enjoy watching. I like scenes that are more focused on the emotional aspect of romance rather than the physical. It's enough for me to know that these characters I created got some action in the span of ten years. I don't need to see it happen.

Neither do I. I get that some people think we should show nudity in our sex scenes, or have multiple sex scenes... but the reason we shy away from that isn't because of ratings/censorship but because we're not keen on it. Often it just feels gratuitous (and someone can say whatever they like about the Witcher scenes, they were definitely gratuitous -- and that's not a reflection on the quality of the game itself, just the truth), particularly when used as the culmination of a romance... as if sex was the point of romance?

Some people might enjoy the "jackpot!" moment, I guess... but personally I'd rather get away from sex scenes completely instead of focusing on them even more heavily.

I think we're totally missing the point here. It isn't about the conventions of any particular genre, but just about good ol' fashioned adult entertainment, and what works for an audience by tapping in on universal themes to hit catharsis. Sex scenes go hand in hand with adult entertainment, whether it's a western movie, a historical fiction epic, or an action film.

There's a good reason for that - if the work in question isn't a full blown romantic fiction then there's a good chance that any romance within it won't be able to build up to a satisfying level of catharsis for the audience. An act of 'union' '(as it were) is a nice little shortcut to that that grants the necessary, um...release.

Without it a romantic element in non-romantic genre work tends to come off as somewhat unsatisfying and unfinished, as there's not really room for full treatment of the romantic development of the relationship.

Modifié par shootist70, 25 avril 2012 - 10:03 .

[Cantina]

schalafi wrote...

I don't think many of us are asking for porn love scenes, just a bit more realism. I mean, how realistic is it for Anders to be in the bed with his LI fully clothed down to wearing his boots, and having a knife still in his belt? Plus all you can see of the LI is her/his arm.

I find it odd that outside of the mansion Hawke can parade around in underwear, but inside must wear the strange lounging outfit even through the romance scene.

What I would like to have seen was a shirtless Anders, and in my game, a female Hawke under the covers with maybe shoulders and arm showing. It would have been nice to see a kiss in bed before getting up and being dressed. Hawke could have accompanied Anders to the front door and kissed him goodbye.

In other words, although I liked most of the dialogue during the love scenes, the little touches of affection were missing. Things that ordinary people in love would do with someone they loved.

Exactly! Except my explination of it seemed uh longer....

Little things go along way. It may seem insignifigant to some, but not to me or others like me.


Oh BTW....yes Anders having the knife in our bed was a bit weird....I wonder just how kinky this guy is...jezzz!

Modifié par Cantina, 25 avril 2012 - 10:04 .

[WhiteKnyght]

You can show sex without showing nudity or ridiculously showing them doing it with underwear on. Look at Shepard's scene with Liara in ME3, they showed them doing it, full nude, but used angles that didn't reveal anything and didn't show the more tawdry parts like the thrusting, humping, and moaning.

You can have the characters under the sheets or anywhere and just show parts that emphasize the intense emotional and physical connection between the two. It doesn't have to be softcore porn.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 25 avril 2012 - 10:05 .