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Javik gets it. (Synthesis)


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#251
nuculerman

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SetecAstronomy wrote...

And the best part is, everyone in the galaxy is going to go forward assuming that Synthesis is/was the sole function of the Crucible. They collectively created a device that allowed them to evolve themselves to a post-organic state. After all, they can't be angry at anyone but themselves: they built the frakking thing.


This is a really great point, and one which I never really thought about.  They all built the machine without knowing it's function.  Shepard can't be held ethically responsible for activating the machine they all agreed to build.  Everyone who agreed to build the machine is ethically responsible for any one  of the outcomes.  They all knew that it didn't matter the function, it would be preferable to them all dying, which was taken as a certainty without the machine.

Thanks for making this point.  I love thinking.

#252
CmnDwnWrkn

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nuculerman wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...


But BioWare HAS given us plenty of context to set up a player's notion of what synthesis would mean.  With both specific examples of the merging of organic and synthetic life, and with characters' opinions about the topic, the player is presented with information throughout the course of the series that synthesis is mostly a BAD thing.


Bioware has given us mostly contradictory context.  The quote in the OP from Javik contradicts the Geth completely.  The geth didn't understand their purpose, and they wanted to.  The Quarians found that terrifying and tried to wipe them out.  The Geth defended themselves.  Later, they reached a consensus that choosing their own personal evolution was far preferable than having it be chosen for them.  Again, this shows they care not who originally created them, they're struggling with the concepts of life just as much as an organic.  If you save them, they also "synthesize" with the Quarians to the benefit of both cultures (mostly to the Quarians).

I think the point of those developments was to contrast cooperative synthesis, with controlled synthesis.  I.E the point of the Reapers merging with organics is that the synthetic mind controls the organic bits.  I think if they had delayed the game for six months and worked solely on fleshing out the story behind this contrast, it would have made for an incredible story.  Instead, what we got, is a product that forces you to start making a lot of assumptions about "intentions" and "implications" to make any sense of the ending.  I choose to think Casey Hudson and the head writer aren't total morons, they're just exceedingly arrogant, and thought everyone would be able to think like them when they saw the ending.  They got too close to their work, like many of us do, but decided not to have it properly vetted before releasing it on an unsuspecting public.


Great post.  I agree with everything you wrote here.

#253
Cobra's_back

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Darth Asriel wrote...

I would like to reference Mordin Solus confirming what Javik states about what happened to the Ja. When asked by Shep if it was possible to save the Collectors Mordin replies, "no! No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech. No soul, replaced by tech."

That's why synthesis scares me. Because that is where it leads!



Yes. I remember that line. Really made me feel sorry for what happened to them.Image IPB

#254
Graius

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Synthesis: Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Beam

With apologies to anyone else if that's already been said, or it's not as amusing as it sounds in my head.

#255
MisterJB

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Fapmaster5000 wrote...
And you completely fail to address any point I raised.

That's because you are not actually raising any points. You are merely presenting your own personal opinions which amounts to "Synthesis is evil because no one other than Shepard had any say in the matter. Therefore, you should not pick it."
Faced with that, what can I do but present my own opinion? That "Nothing matters except the results. If Synthesis improves the galaxy, then it was good. Otherwise, it was wrong."

Your logic justifies any position, so long as the actor in play believes in his or her own actions.  Consequences do not matter, reasons do not matter, so long as the deciding actor believes in the his or her choices strongly enough.

Reasons do not matter, no. How many achievements were due to "evil" reasons like greed?
The only things that matters are the consequences. If Synthesis improves the galaxy, Shepard will be called a hero. If not, a monsters.
This is true in everything.

This is a decision reached without debate, without discussion, without any knowledge of what will happen, where the only evidence presented is based on the statements of a being who's object has been your extermination and processing into goop for millions of years, who's entire logic can be destroyed with the simple question, "How do you know this?", and who cannot or will not simply stop killing people when it supposedly realizes that killing people is now pointless.

Why are you assuming that the Catalyst doesn't know what it is doing? It is the oldest form of consciousness in the galaxy. It is obvious that it has witnessed multiple civilizations being destroyed by Synthetics much like the quarians.
The alternative is that it has created a solution for a problem that doesn't exist which is nonsensical.

Also, on what basis do you claim that the Reaper solution is now pointless?

How can you possibly listen to it?

Because it makes sense.
We are all human here on Earth with the same basic needs and we have been unable to end war or suffering.
To assume that something as different as organics and synthetics will manage to mantain a peaceful coexistence without a common threat to force the peace, the Reapers, is naive.

So no, you can't "imagine all the wonders you could create" and then commit every everyone, everywhere, forever, to that fate, not without becoming the greatest villain in the known galaxy, worse than even the Reapers.

See? Personal opinion and an absolute at that.
Forcing the galaxy towards a better future without any loss of life somehow makes you a villain now.


After all, you succeeded where they failed.  As I stated before: even bereft of any of its disturbingly "master race" implications, at its core, Synthesis is doing EXACTLY what the Reapers were doing, simply dressed up in prettier clothes.

What the Reapers were doing was saving all organic life in the galaxy by preserving them in Reaper form. It is entirely impossible that, without the Reapers, a Singularity would have already been formed and it would have extermined any semblance of organic life in the galaxy. The Reapers stopped this.

So, if by "prettier clothes" you mean "Saved all life in the galaxy, improved it and did this without any loss of freedom or individuality" then yes, that is what Synthesis does.
And I don't see what is wrong with that.

To get to the top of your post: You never address why the high ground here is wrong, and then you attempt to claim it, without making a single concrete argument beyond extreme moral relativity, might makes right, and a disregard for any point of view beyond your own.

You act based on the claim that forcing something; in this case Synthesis; on the entire galaxy is wrong regardless of one's reasons for doing so and the consequences.
Yes, by picking Synthesis you are ignoring, for a moment, the free will of others in the galaxy. Yes, this could be called "wrong". However, by not picking Synthesis, you could not only be condemning all organic life in the galaxy to extinction at he hands of synthetics and you could be denying them amazing benefits from a symbiotic relationship with the Reapers.
Therefore, I consider it not choosing Synthesis to be "wrong".

Society gets rocked in Destroy. It's not a good ending. An entire species may very well die from it. However, as stated, that species exists in consensus, and chose to enter a fight where the stakes were "we win or we all die". They are soldiers who stepped up to the plate at that point, whose sacrifice will be remembered as the galaxy moves forward, free of the Catalyst's insane troll logic, and decides on their own future.

No, by picking Destroy you are agreeing with the Catalyst that organics and synthetics can never live in peace and, therefore, all synthetic life must be destroyed, Reapers and geth.
Of course, you will disagree with this, thus proving my previous points. Everything is relative, every action can be interpretated differently.

Synthesis agrees with the Catalyst that organic and synthetics will never be at peace therefore, we must blur the differences between us. And no one dies, not even the Reapers who, instead, gain freedom.

It's the only ending that is made based on the objectives of the entire series, "Destroy the Reapers". It's the only ending that doesn't involve gambling that the Catalyst's Space Magic is the future. It's the only ending that doesn't sucker punch the galaxy with Shepard, Space God.

The "objective of the entire series" was "Stop the Reapers".
Mission accomplished, all three endings stop the Reapers.
Synthesis goes even further. You don't just save all life in the galaxy, you improve it.

It's really the only ending that saves humanity, both as a species, and ethically, even at great cost.

Humanity is saved in all the endings except if you pick Destroy with low EMS since it takes Earth with it.
And I couldn't care less about "ethics".

#256
gert56nom

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The star kid contradics himself plus contradics everything from 3 MA games

#257
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3DandBeyond wrote...

The context that Bioware gives us for Synthesis is the glow boy's words. He says it's the end of evolution. Since we are supposedly meant to guess a lot of things about the ending, that means that all learning is moot, advancement is moot, striving for any goal is moot. Life stagnates. What makes life worth living no longer exists. It means the soul (what Legion died for) is rendered meaningless. Strife, for good or bad creates change, and has the potential for great good or bad. Synthesis, just stops that.


That reminds me of Mordin's dialogue in ME2, after the first collector ship assault.

Synthesis option is one that I find the most repulsive. Maybe there is some need for it. I personally can't see it. The above post by 3Dand Beyond states it better than I could.

#258
Cobra's_back

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nuculerman wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Wrong. Red is genocide against 1,000,000 Geth and EDI. They die quickly.


Green is taking away every organic choice to be organic . Listen to Star Child talk about Synthesis. It will be the FINAL evolution of life. Many players say 1000,000 dead and a trillion saved. Synthesis is your best choice not everyone else.


Life is a choice.  They wanted to choose life.  You murdered them.  Any ending is taking away everyone's choice of something.  I'm not sure why you don't understand this.  The whole point of the ending is you get to make a choice that drastically alters the fate of the galaxy on behalf of all organics and synthetics without consulting them first.

As for synthesis being my best choice and not everyone elses, you're really confused.  I chose syntehsis as one shepard, and will choose destroy as the other.  It's an RPG, not real life.  I'm simply arguing against the majority community consesus that synthesis is somehow less ethical than destroy.  Bioware didn't give us enough context to know that for sure, and I disagree with all their assumptions required to prove that assertion.



I understand perfectly clear. I don’t think you do. Shepard lets 1000,000 die (genocide the Geth) to preserve the rights of a trillion organics to be just organic. Also, he gets to kill the Reapers.
 
Stated several times:
 
Pick the option you want no best option.
 
Everyone is going to have their own preference.
 
All three options suck.
 
 Yes, your comment "It's an RPG, not real life".  No disagreement there.  I’m sure this is why there are three options none better than the other. BW wanted to give you multiple choices.

#259
matthewmi

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The folks who say "And I couldn't care less about "ethics" scare me I hope they never get in a position of authority.

#260
Cobra's_back

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matthewmi wrote...

The folks who say "And I couldn't care less about "ethics" scare me I hope they never get in a position of authority.



very good point. +20

#261
Cobra's_back

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ThinkIntegral wrote...

Sounds like to me you'll simply never be satisfied in a Synthesis answer.

Edit: Also I find it interesting that you cherish the loss of free will agency argument over loss of life argument when both red and green choices remove free will for some one.  So for you it's better that you rob a couple of people of their free will versus the free will of a trillion?



This is a very true statement.

#262
Nimrodell

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matthewmi wrote...

The folks who say "And I couldn't care less about "ethics" scare me I hope they never get in a position of authority.


I spent my entire youth afraid and fighting against people who use word ethics lightly without a proper context - it's so easy to judge and you're doing it right now without a proper context because there's still none - we don't know what any of the endings bring as consequence, only assume, speculate. I guess, you'd be among those who would judge that instantly Shepard for destroying Aratoth without even stopping to see what actually happened there. I'll give my moral judgment on endings when I actually get appropriate information - but not before because I really don't know what any of the choices imply at the end - Destroy: was Shepard such bigot if s/he made peace between organics and synthetics, such self-righteous person or s/he genuinly believed in premise that organics are actually only living beings and Geth were just mimicking it, or maybe Shepard was afraid of some Geth in fututre finally finding the lust for conquest?

Control - what actually happens to Shepard there? Will s/he be even aware or only hers/his last thought is imprinted? What if Shepard goes crazy in that solitude like Hal 9000, maybe get god complex or worse? What if Shepard, being isolated like that, actually misinterpret some future conflict? And if Shepard's last though is imprinted, then, who knows, maybe some future power-hungry mongrel learns about the Citadel and finds a way on how to actually subdue Reapers and take control by staying aware?

Synthesis - Shepard's essence is dispersed Catalyst say, a? But what that does mean, what if Shepard was bad person, does that mean every being now will have those urges and intolerance? Is this unifying them thus negating difference and variety or it actually makes them better, healthier, smarter?

Talking about ethics with so little real knowledge on what happened at the end is more zealotry hiding behind the face of democratic and moral thought. I won't judge any player's decision until I actually get what was always required, an explanation and closure - not everything needs to be spelled out, but basic things when it comes to those forced choices, should be explained first, because we don't know anything.

So, when it comes to morality, it requires broader mind than my own backyard in order to truly understand ethics. One can stretch mouth as much as required, but very often the big words that come after that are also shallow ones.

#263
Navasha

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feliciano2040 wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

To change the DNA of every living organism without their consent is just out of the question for many. It violates a living organism’s individual rights.


Of course, it's better to let everyone be killed and harvested by The Reapers.



Honestly, YES. 

I would rather have the reapers simply win this cycle, and obliterate every advanced race just as they have always done.    This, at least, would allow life to continue in the galaxy.   A new civilization would get the chance.   

Synthesis is a violation on a massive scale.     It literally destroys all life in the galaxy for all time.    There is no "apex" of evolution.   Evolution is a system designed to allow life to adapt to a changing environment.    You don't just get to end evolution without condemning everything to an eventual death. 

Modifié par Navasha, 26 avril 2012 - 06:55 .


#264
nuculerman

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ghostbusters101 wrote...

I understand perfectly clear. I don’t think you do. Shepard lets 1000,000 die (genocide the Geth) to preserve the rights of a trillion organics to be just organic. Also, he gets to kill the Reapers.
 


The Geth also have a right to life, which, in my argument, supercedes any right to property (your own body).  Again, my assumption is that the change is completely physical.  New bodies, faster brains.  My assumption could be wrong, but I had to make one to make the choice.  Bioware condemned me to that.

All three options suck.
 
 Yes, your comment "It's an RPG, not real life".  No disagreement there.  I’m sure this is why there are three options none better than the other. BW wanted to give you multiple choices.


Well at least we can agree on those two points.

#265
ThinkIntegral

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ghostbusters101 wrote...

Darth Asriel wrote...

I
would like to reference Mordin Solus confirming what Javik states about
what happened to the Ja. When asked by Shep if it was possible to save
the Collectors Mordin replies, "no! No glands, replaced by tech. No
digestive system, replaced by tech. No soul, replaced by tech."

That's why synthesis scares me. Because that is where it leads!

Yes. I remember that line. Really made me feel sorry for what happened to them.../../../images/forum/emoticons/unsure.png


Apparently you two never heard of DNA computing or spintronics.

ghostbusters101 wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

Sounds like to me you'll simply never be satisfied in a Synthesis answer.

Edit: Also I find it interesting that you cherish the loss of free will agency argument over loss of life argument when both red and green choices remove free will for some one.  So for you it's better that you rob a couple of people of their free will versus the free will of a trillion?



This is a very true statement.


Remind me not to hang around you.  Also it's kind of contradictory isn't it?  You say Synthesis robs all these people to make a choice, but it's all of a sudden okay to rob a couple of people of theirs?  It also is a bit telling on your idea for preserving sapient life.

#266
feliciano2040

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ghostbusters101 wrote...

Didn’t I say all the options suck.


That's why it's called sacrifice.

#267
Guest_Arcian_*

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veramis wrote...

Mac Walters is a confused person.

Mac Walters is a person who prefers to travel and drink expensive drinks to actually doing his job.

"Hey, Casey, I have booked a flight to Baha this weekend. I know we were supposed to be working on ME3's endings, but how about we just mooch off of Deus Ex and be done with it? Hey, that leaves you with time to go fly your plane, right?"

#268
Ieldra

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Nimrodell wrote...

matthewmi wrote...

The folks who say "And I couldn't care less about "ethics" scare me I hope they never get in a position of authority.


I spent my entire youth afraid and fighting against people who use word ethics lightly without a proper context - it's so easy to judge and you're doing it right now without a proper context because there's still none - we don't know what any of the endings bring as consequence, only assume, speculate. I guess, you'd be among those who would judge that instantly Shepard for destroying Aratoth without even stopping to see what actually happened there. I'll give my moral judgment on endings when I actually get appropriate information - but not before because I really don't know what any of the choices imply at the end - Destroy: was Shepard such bigot if s/he made peace between organics and synthetics, such self-righteous person or s/he genuinly believed in premise that organics are actually only living beings and Geth were just mimicking it, or maybe Shepard was afraid of some Geth in fututre finally finding the lust for conquest?

Control - what actually happens to Shepard there? Will s/he be even aware or only hers/his last thought is imprinted? What if Shepard goes crazy in that solitude like Hal 9000, maybe get god complex or worse? What if Shepard, being isolated like that, actually misinterpret some future conflict? And if Shepard's last though is imprinted, then, who knows, maybe some future power-hungry mongrel learns about the Citadel and finds a way on how to actually subdue Reapers and take control by staying aware?

Synthesis - Shepard's essence is dispersed Catalyst say, a? But what that does mean, what if Shepard was bad person, does that mean every being now will have those urges and intolerance? Is this unifying them thus negating difference and variety or it actually makes them better, healthier, smarter?

Talking about ethics with so little real knowledge on what happened at the end is more zealotry hiding behind the face of democratic and moral thought. I won't judge any player's decision until I actually get what was always required, an explanation and closure - not everything needs to be spelled out, but basic things when it comes to those forced choices, should be explained first, because we don't know anything.

So, when it comes to morality, it requires broader mind than my own backyard in order to truly understand ethics. One can stretch mouth as much as required, but very often the big words that come after that are also shallow ones.

This bears repeating. I fully agree.

#269
frozngecko

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Yeah...I know what synthesis is: It's called turning into a Husk.

#270
MisterJB

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frozngecko wrote...

Yeah...I know what synthesis is: It's called turning into a Husk.

Image IPB

Does that look like a pair of Husks to you?

#271
Sajuro

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Unit-Alpha wrote...

I agree. The disturbing thing is that the leaked script and the game itself both indicate that synthesis is supposed to be the best.

I thought it was Synergy in the leaked ending, and if it was going off a different ending like the dark energy, then it would be the best since synergy is getting more out of stuff than the sum of its parts >.> bad definition/

#272
Canned Bullets

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feliciano2040 wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Didn’t I say all the options suck.


That's why it's called sacrifice.


Yeah Shepard already sacrifeced a lot. Nobody wants to be reminded that life sucks, which is why people play video games.

#273
ElSuperGecko

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MisterJB wrote...
Does that look like a pair of Husks to you?


Naiveity!

Referring back to Javik's comments in the OP...

"The randomalienname - they were as the Geth are, to this cycle.  Their creators lived on a dying world.  It was beyond their ability to save, so they resorted to implants to enhance their intelligence."

"The AI seized their physical body.  It could alter their genetic material at the deepest level.  In time, the offspring were moulded into a slave race.  Few organic traces were left.  They were monsters."


EDI and Joker may look happy now, a mere hour or so after the Synthesis wave, but what happens in time?

It take time for an infection to kill a patient.
It takes time for a donor organ to be rejected.
It takes time for a person to become fully indoctrinated.

And we have no way of knowing what the results of Synthesis will be over time.  We aren't given enough insight into the Synthesis process, it's effects and it's implications to make an accurate prediction.  All we can do is guess, assume or hope.

And, of course, take into acount established examples from within the series.  Such as Javik's story, as above.  And the fact we've already seen a combination of synthetic and organic life (Husks, and the Reapers themselves).

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 27 avril 2012 - 11:14 .


#274
ThinkIntegral

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Geez man, just quit lying to yourself that you "want to believe in Synthesis." If you haven't accepted any reasons by now it's most likely you won't because you don't want to. I think the discussion has run its course and it's really just you wanting to prove you're right.

#275
ElSuperGecko

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ThinkIntegral wrote...
Geez man, just quit lying to yourself that you "want to believe in Synthesis." If you haven't accepted any reasons by now it's most likely you won't because you don't want to. I think the discussion has run its course and it's really just you wanting to prove you're right.


The thread was dead for 8 hours.  Thanks for bumping it though, maybe we can get the discussion going again!  B)

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 27 avril 2012 - 11:15 .