286 réponses à ce sujet

[ThinkIntegral]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...
Geez man, just quit lying to yourself that you "want to believe in Synthesis." If you haven't accepted any reasons by now it's most likely you won't because you don't want to. I think the discussion has run its course and it's really just you wanting to prove you're right.

The thread was dead for 8 hours.  Thanks for bumping it though, maybe we can get the discussion going again! 

As expected.  So lame.

[ElSuperGecko]

ThinkIntegral wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...
Geez man, just quit lying to yourself that you "want to believe in Synthesis." If you haven't accepted any reasons by now it's most likely you won't because you don't want to. I think the discussion has run its course and it's really just you wanting to prove you're right.

The thread was dead for 8 hours.  Thanks for bumping it though, maybe we can get the discussion going again! 

As expected.  So lame.

Thank you for your feedback!  What was your favourite part of Mass Effect 3?

[feliciano2040]

Canned Bullets wrote...

feliciano2040 wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Didn’t I say all the options suck.

That's why it's called sacrifice.

Yeah Shepard already sacrifeced a lot. Nobody wants to be reminded that life sucks, which is why people play video games.

So....."juvenile escapism" criteria is not met, therefore, the ending is bad.

Oh the horror ! THE horror !

Modifié par feliciano2040, 27 avril 2012 - 11:30 .

[Taboo]

feliciano2040 wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...

feliciano2040 wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Didn’t I say all the options suck.

That's why it's called sacrifice.

Yeah Shepard already sacrifeced a lot. Nobody wants to be reminded that life sucks, which is why people play video games.

So....."juvenile escapism" criteria is not met, therefore, the ending is bad.

Oh the horror ! THE horror !

The stories I could tell about things I've seen in the art medium.

That's real horror.

Mass Effect 3 has nothing on Salo.

[ElSuperGecko]

feliciano2040 wrote...
So....."juvenile escapism" criteria is not met, therefore, the ending is bad.

Oh the horror ! THE horror !

You know, I don't think anyone was too bothered about there not being a happy ending (I might be wrong).  I think we could have coped with an unhappy ending if it rounded off the series nicely and stayed true to it's themes.  It wasn't the lack of blue babies and happily ever afters, it was the
fact that the endings were downright rubbish.

I went into the final mission expecting the worst for Shepard and my team (which is why I picked squadmates I didn't care particularly about).

I guess what I SHOULD have done is gone into the final mission expecting the worst from Bioware.

[Fapmaster5000]

ThinkIntegral wrote...

Geez man, just quit lying to yourself that you "want to believe in Synthesis." If you haven't accepted any reasons by now it's most likely you won't because you don't want to. I think the discussion has run its course and it's really just you wanting to prove you're right.

Actually, I agree with you on one point: I thought the discussion had run its course.  I did not appreciate the Synthesis ending, as an ethical solution, as a proper narrative close, or as a logical event.  We engaged in discussion, I allowed to Ieldra2 that another ending might have solved the "Synthesis is possible" problems, but I still felt that it did not work here in the way it was presented.  MisterJB said a lot of really crazy stuff, so I simply moved on to talking with more rational people (no offence, MisterJB, but I read all of your posts in TIM's voice, and it works hilariously well about 85% of the time).  You and I went round in circles, where you'd make an argument, I'd retort/counter, and you'd repeat the earlier argument and state that I will never accept the ending.  After the fourth time I felt the need to post, "As I stated in post X from three pages ago...", I decided that we were quite simply talking past each other, and moved on to greener pastures, like the new Sabaton single.  It's boss, by the way.  The thread died around the same time, so I figured we'd all had our say and agreed to disagree for this round.

However, I saw this thread back on page one, and wondered what might have been going on, so I clicked on it...

Low and behold, it's round 5!

Well, then, back to it, eh?  Please read posts 1,2,3,6,10, and 42 of mine, and I'll read posts 3,8,9,12, and 23 of yours.  Rinse, repeat.

Now, addressing the newest arguement, one I'd been ignoring thus far, which I quoted on above.  I actually do want a reason to accept Synthesis as valid in ME3, if for no other reason than as a point of pride in my "make a better ending" thought expirement.  Will it be one I choose?  Probably not, but maybe.  As it is, though, it simply fails the three important tests:

1. It is insufficiently explained to function within willing suspension of disbelief, and what is explained opens up more inconsistancies, contradictions, and plot holes than nearly any other piece of professional narrative art I've seen.  Some of these are internal, some are external, but this objection hinges upon such drivel as "final step of evolution", "machine DNA", the inherent differences in cognition between biological life and software life, and how a green light accomplishes any of this.  This is argument that Ieldra2 addressed, but that only resolved that synthesis is a possiblity in general, but not in the way shown.  As shown, it is redonkulous. 

2.  It is insufficiently reflective of the themes of the series and the character of Shepard.  Yes, it is related to a sub-plot and secondary theme of the series, Organics versus Synthetics.  However, this theme was always secondary, and almost purely expressed within the confines of the geth/Quarian conflict and its fallout.  It shared the mileau stage with the Krogan Rebellions / Rachni War / Genophage, the rise of the Alliance and the fallout from it (Turian and Batarian relations), the Asari dominance of culture/diplomacy, the stagnation of Counsel races, Dark Energy, Cerberus, and many more.  If you'd asked any player after beating Mass Effect 1 or 2 what the point of the series was, who the main antagonist was, and how you beat them, the answer would be some variation of "Commander Shepard builds a diverse and unique team to stop the Reapers from destroying the galaxy".  At the end of ME3, the theme suddenly mutates into, "Commander Shepard plays a "choose your own warcrime" adventure in collusion with a godchild AI, because he can't trust the geth, even though he very likely made peace with them".  Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?  This doesn't even begin to touch on the character assassination of Shepard him/herself, reducing the Commander to a befuddled and victimized pawn in the last thirty seconds of the series.  Please note: the hero can start as this, but should not end like this, unless it is a tragedy.  Please also note: Mass Effect was never structured as a tragedy.  You want to see a tragedy?  Go read Oedipus Rex.

3.  It is an immoral action, possibly the worst of the three ending states.  This objection is the weakest of the three arguments against Synthesis, as it merely positions that Synthesis is 'wrong', as opposed to 'broken', and has been the primary crux of this thread.   This objection is primarily raised when some, including Bioware, imply that Synthesis was the "golden ending", the best, most appropriate, most rewarding conclusion to the game series.  While the first two arguements take down this point from external and internal flaws, this argument is simply an objection to the claim that Synthesis is the "best", and hinges on two points: "the Catalyst has not proven itself reliable, yet is treated as infallibly by those who endorse Synthesis, even though Shepard has EVERY reason to distrust it", "Synthesis inflicts mass mutiliation and ethnic cleansing on the galaxy", "Synthesis is the only ending where Shepard intrinsically accepts the Catalyst's logic and decides to make him/herself an accessory to it's 'solution' (used loosely)", "Synthesis exists on a foundation of racial bias which Shepard/the galaxy/the player had already dismissed, and so is completely irrelevant, becoming the proverbial 'blow up the village to save it' solution", "Synthesis does not solve the problem of the Reapers, but instead adresses a problem that may very well only exist inside the Catalyst's central processor", and many, many more.  

This thread focused on the issues of #3, which are internal issues with the ending, questions that exist even while ignoring the fundamental mechanical flaws that present themselves in the closing scenario.  This thread, or at least our debate, has, for the most part, existed inside of a theoretical box, where we can assume that problems #1 and #2 are solved by the Extended Cut, leaving only the problems that Synthesis raises within the story, and whether it was an appropriate, ethical, and maybe even "best" ending.  This should be an easy problem to solve, given that the majority of issues are simply "assumed" away.  This is like factoring vertical trajectory, while ignoring every factor but velocity, time, and gravity (and assuming gravity to be 10, just for kicks).

Instead, it continues to kick up problems, logic faults, ethical failures.  The other endings can be maneuvered around, re-interpretted as better or worse in different reasonings.  Synthesis keeps derping itself, even when all derp is removed from the scenario.

So, no, I can't yet accept Synthesis.  If you can't get a peg to fit into a hole, sometimes it's because you haven't tried hard enough, and sometimes it's because the peg is square, the hole is round, and continuing to smash the two together just makes everyone dumber.

If someone can fix the problems, I would love to find out the answer.  I'll turn your statement around, "If so many object to so wide a variety of points, so validly expressed, then perhaps the objections have merit."  It could be that I just really don't like the ending, because I've decided "well, eff that ending, and the color green in general", or it could be that Synthesis is actually that bad.

Hence, I walked away.  But since you asked, there you go.




EDIT:  As for this little gem:

ThinkIntegral wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote... 

The thread was dead for 8 hours.  Thanks for bumping it though, maybe we can get the discussion going again!  

As expected.  So lame.

 

There is a saying we have at work, you might be familiar with it: "When you ask a stupid question, you get a stupid answer."  Replace "ask" with "make", "question" with "post", and "stupid" with "lame".  

Not trying to be insulting, but really, what kind of response were you hoping to get by dragging out a dead horse for another round of ritual beating?

Modifié par Fapmaster5000, 28 avril 2012 - 12:16 .

[ThinkIntegral]

Actually, I should apologize to ElSuperGecko, I mistakenly thought you were Fapmaster. So really, my words were to you FapMaster, though I suppose they could apply to ElSuperGecko.

Second, I didn't revive the thread that would be the OP; ElSuperGecko. 8 hours isn't that long.

Third, I skimmed that wall text except the last portions and yup you're just lying to yourself so quit making excuses. You'll never like it because you don't want to.

Finally, I was expecting something exactly as what you posted; the same **** because you just can't be honest with yourself and you feel the need to constantly repeat ad nauseum.

Modifié par ThinkIntegral, 28 avril 2012 - 12:26 .

[Fapmaster5000]

ThinkIntegral wrote...

Actually, I should apologize to ElSuperGecko, I mistakenly thought you were Fapmaster. So really, my words were to you FapMaster, though I suppose they could apply to ElSuperGecko.

Second, I didn't revive the thread that would be the OP; ElSuperGecko. 8 hours isn't that long.

Third, I skimmed that wall text except the last portions and yup you're just lying to yourself so quit making excuses. You'll never like it because you don't want to.

Finally, I was expecting something exactly as what you posted; the same **** because you just can't be honest with yourself and you feel the need to constantly repeat ad nauseum.

Hey, hey, look, it's my best friend.  I was going to assume that you'd not read my post, because, A. It's long.  B.  It might actually say something. and C. You're just going to recycle the same bit response, again.  Thanks for removing the need for assumptions, buddy.  At this point, there really is no point to debating with you, since you've declared (in self-numbered points!  thanks again for making this easy!):

1.  You can't read, and you attacked some random dude because you were trying to attack me, instead.

2.   You can't make arguments with logical data.  Your time stamp was one hour ago.  The thread was dead for eight hours.  He may have rezzed it once before, but this thread came alive with the sounds of ad hominems because you went grave digging. 

3.  You don't read.  You also repeat the same phrase over and over again, like a broken record.

4.  Finally, after admitting you can't read, won't read, just assume things, and ignore all evidence to the contrary, you launch into an ad hominem attack, yet again.

Please, if you must post again, try and add some new content.  If you're going to be insulting about it, at least try and be funny.  Of course, this is all assuming that I bother to read your reply.  After all, you've made it so clear why I shouldn't.

Modifié par Fapmaster5000, 28 avril 2012 - 12:38 .

[feliciano2040]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

You know, I don't think anyone was too bothered about there not being a happy ending (I might be wrong).  I think we could have coped with an unhappy ending if it rounded off the series nicely and stayed true to it's themes.  It wasn't the lack of blue babies and happily ever afters, it was the
fact that the endings were downright rubbish.

I went into the final mission expecting the worst for Shepard and my team (which is why I picked squadmates I didn't care particularly about).

I guess what I SHOULD have done is gone into the final mission expecting the worst from Bioware.

You guys are so frikkin bleak, you cannot see ANYTHING positive with the ending, that pretty much destroys any argument you have against it.

I believe the ending is flawed, very much so, hence why I'm expecting with anticipation the Extended Cut, and if it doesn't fix what I think needs to be fixed, then surely I will be able to acknowledge that, unlike some other folk.

[ThinkIntegral]

Fapmaster5000 wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

Actually, I should apologize to ElSuperGecko, I mistakenly thought you were Fapmaster. So really, my words were to you FapMaster, though I suppose they could apply to ElSuperGecko.

Second, I didn't revive the thread that would be the OP; ElSuperGecko. 8 hours isn't that long.

Third, I skimmed that wall text except the last portions and yup you're just lying to yourself so quit making excuses. You'll never like it because you don't want to.

Finally, I was expecting something exactly as what you posted; the same **** because you just can't be honest with yourself and you feel the need to constantly repeat ad nauseum.

Hey, hey, look, it's my best friend.  I was going to assume that you'd not read my post, because, A. It's long.  B.  It might actually say something. and C. You're just going to recycle the same bit response, again.  Thanks for removing the need for assumptions, buddy.  At this point, there really is no point to debating with you, since you've declared (in self-numbered points!  thanks again for making this easy!):

1.  You can't read, and you attacked some random dude because you were trying to attack me, instead.

2.   You can't make arguments with logical data.  Your time stamp was one hour ago.  The thread was dead for eight hours.  He may have rezzed it once before, but this thread came alive with the sounds of ad hominems because you went grave digging. 

3.  You don't read.  You also repeat the same phrase over and over again, like a broken record.

4.  Finally, after admitting you can't read, won't read, just assume things, and ignore all evidence to the contrary, you launch into an ad hominem attack, yet again.

Please, if you must post again, try and add some new content.  If you're going to be insulting about it, at least try and be funny.  Of course, this is all assuming that I bother to read your reply.  After all, you've made it so clear why I shouldn't.

I'll bite.  I always love these responses of trying to invalidate someone.  Yeah I misread on who the poster was but so what?  You two are basically jerking each other off anyways. So you can see my confusion.

As for debate, I just wanted to add some points that may not have been stated because well I didn't want to read through all the pages. Yes, I'm lazy. 

At the end of the day points have been made, you don't or can't accept them for whatever reason.  I presented you with ways to interpret the situation, you can take them or leave them.  While glib, it pretty much boils down with you not liking that ending.  If you didn't have such a strong problem with it you wouldn't be in this thread discussing logic would you? And while I'm not certain, I don't think you've put as much time an energy on the other two to show how "wrong" they are, right?

Anyways, have fun buddy.

[RedTail F22]

sad face got more sad

[Fapmaster5000]

ThinkIntegral wrote...

snippity snip snip snip

All mutually applied sarcasm aside, you may be interested to know (probably not), that I've actually come up with a scenario that I think might actually make Synthesis work as an ending.  (I'd still not take it, but I think it would be less... broken.)  Unfortunately, it's too much of a change to argue as "ME3 Synthesis as presented", so it doesn't belong in this thread.  If you saw what I did with Control/Destroy in my little expirement, you might know where I'm going with this.

EDIT: And done! This thread is my "head canon / experiment" for the endings. I finally managed to get Synthesis to work for me, but I had to do it by basically undoing it, so maybe I didn't resolve anything at all...

Modifié par Fapmaster5000, 28 avril 2012 - 05:02 .