286 réponses à ce sujet

[Ultra Prism]

My problem with Synthesis ending is that I am not gonna play God and make everyone hybrids against their free will .. seriously thats just messed up .. I mean okay joker and edi will be happy but what about everyone else ... not everyone wants become cyborgs unless you want to talk Deus Ex games ... where ethics and beliefs are different

[Cobra's_back]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I simply do not believe it is ethical to rewrite the way the universe has functioned for billions of years.

And to put that decision on the shoulders of one individual? Absolutely not.

+1

[alienatedflea]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

I agree. The disturbing thing is that the leaked script and the game itself both indicate that synthesis is supposed to be the best.

it IS the best option...are all of you guys/girls stupid?! Why would a machine lie to you? really? thats because they wouldnt, its not effective or efficient.  Synthesis combines organics and synthetics making the new union be perfect in every way.  No one was put on a spike and suffered until they turned into husks...the reapers leave...Humanity is saved...I do not get why people then this synthesis ending is disturbing...

[Taboo]

alienatedflea wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

I agree. The disturbing thing is that the leaked script and the game itself both indicate that synthesis is supposed to be the best.

it IS the best option...are all of you guys/girls stupid?! Why would a machine lie to you? really? thats because they wouldnt, its not effective or efficient.  Synthesis combines organics and synthetics making the new union be perfect in every way.  No one was put on a spike and suffered until they turned into husks...the reapers leave...Humanity is saved...I do not get why people then this synthesis ending is disturbing...

Well I'm no longer human that's pretty messed up. Seeing as Mass Effect was always about the validity OF ALL LIFE I see no point in making all that diversity into one thing.

Appalling.

[Cobra's_back]

lalaquen wrote...

I thought that the fact that it was a bad idea would've been obvious to everyone the minute the Catalyst VI/AI said: "synthesis is the final evolution of life". Evolution is essentially just drift/change; an ongoing process that occurs as the direct byproduct of life. The only way for it to "end" is for all life capable of growth and change to end.

I agree with what you say about evolution. I had over 5000 EMS and he said the synthesis would be the FINAL evolution of life. Bad news.

[lordofdogtown19]

veramis wrote...

Mac Walters is a confused person.

throw him out the airlock 

[Kath]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

lalaquen wrote...

I thought that the fact that it was a bad idea would've been obvious to everyone the minute the Catalyst VI/AI said: "synthesis is the final evolution of life". Evolution is essentially just drift/change; an ongoing process that occurs as the direct byproduct of life. The only way for it to "end" is for all life capable of growth and change to end.

I agree with what you say about evolution. I had over 5000 EMS and he said the synthesis would be the FINAL evolution of life. Bad news.

"All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming, compensating for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations! No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates! Works other way too. Advancement before culture is ready, disastrous. Saw it with Krogan. Uplifted by Salarians. Disastrous. Our Fault."


-- Dr. Mordin Solus, ME2

[tnt118]

Someone asked if we didn't have a choice.. if the end played out based solely on EMS, would that be better?

I'm having trouble getting my thoughts in to clear words, I've already erased and tried to rewrite this several times.

Mass Effect is a game about choice. To realize at the last moment that there isn't going to be a traditional final battle, that your final battle is choice -- that's genius. (The plot, writing, etc both before and after that choice are of course terrible). But the concept.. the *staging* of it, the music, the drama, the long paths you have to decide to walk down, made for an extremely powerful and emotional situation. That little seed is brilliant, and unfortunately vastly overshadowed by other shortcomings.

[daigakuinsei]

QUIET PLEASE MAKE IT STOP

[JShepppp]

liggy002 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

You bring up very valid points, but there is no reason to assume the Catalyst's synthesis is the same as the Prothean-era race synthesis. The Crucible is much more advanced in terms of technology.

I doubt that.  Javik is foreshadowing.  It's a common literary technique I am sure that you are aware of.

The sarcasm underlies the insult. Impressive. But it could foreshadow different things, I think.

I would say all of these were foreshadowing how the ending would make sense of them and do better on them, like how the Crucible's synthesis is better than Saren and Javik's-fellow-species and the kind of synthesis they tried to go down.

Just like how Reaper fights (Sovvy, Tuchanka, Rannoch) were lucky in several ways and were one-time situations that foreshadowed how the Crucible, the "ultimate" weapon, could destroy them all. 

The Crucible is the manifestation of all the cycles' defiance in a single "thing done right and completely" that you want - destroy or synthesis, depending on the person. Control is a kind of "unsure" option. 

[mpgeist]

You can't use Javik as proof. He was bonus content added in later and not essential to the story!

[JShepppp]

tnt118 wrote...

Someone asked if we didn't have a choice.. if the end played out based solely on EMS, would that be better?

I'm having trouble getting my thoughts in to clear words, I've already erased and tried to rewrite this several times.

Mass Effect is a game about choice. To realize at the last moment that there isn't going to be a traditional final battle, that your final battle is choice -- that's genius. (The plot, writing, etc both before and after that choice are of course terrible). But the concept.. the *staging* of it, the music, the drama, the long paths you have to decide to walk down, made for an extremely powerful and emotional situation. That little seed is brilliant, and unfortunately vastly overshadowed by other shortcomings.

Part of it regards the constraints of the in-game universe I think. You can't beat the Reapers with conventional forces alone - there are only so many times you can be lucky. The game drills this in. 

As for the choices we're given - well, beggars can't be choosers. The war can't be won conventionally. The Crucible is the only unconventional weapon. We're at its mercy. By all accounts, our real choice should be quick death or slow death depending on how we send out the fleets.

Now if you're talkinga bout (a) the Crucible only having 3 options or ( the 3 options being relatively crap, that's different. As for having 3 options, I don't know wha tother options it could have. Control and Destroy were pretty obvious ones, and Synthesis was kinda out there. What other "out there" option would deal with the Reapers in a way the others wouldn't? For example, somehow making Reaper shields malfunction and disappear so they could be killed by normal weapons would be pointless because we already have the Destroy switch that does that more easily. 

As for the 3 options being relatively crap...again, I don't know what other things the Crucible could do. 

Overall, the writing that forced this situation has been going on for the entire series I think. They wrote themselves into a corner with such a powerful enemy.

[JShepppp]

mpgeist wrote...

You can't use Javik as proof. He was bonus content added in later and not essential to the story!

+1 

LOL

[Bad King]

Difference is, the synthesis ending is a god giving Shepard the power to unleash his space magic, whereas the example Javik gives is dumb organics messing around with things they don't understand.

People do seem to cherrypick what Javik says- one minute people claim that he's a naive misguided moron for claiming that all AI must be eradicated and the next minute people are using him as an argument against the synthesis ending.

[Bad King]

Katherine wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

lalaquen wrote...

I thought that the fact that it was a bad idea would've been obvious to everyone the minute the Catalyst VI/AI said: "synthesis is the final evolution of life". Evolution is essentially just drift/change; an ongoing process that occurs as the direct byproduct of life. The only way for it to "end" is for all life capable of growth and change to end.

I agree with what you say about evolution. I had over 5000 EMS and he said the synthesis would be the FINAL evolution of life. Bad news.

"All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming, compensating for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations! No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates! Works other way too. Advancement before culture is ready, disastrous. Saw it with Krogan. Uplifted by Salarians. Disastrous. Our Fault."


-- Dr. Mordin Solus, ME2

I love Mordin and all but that's a massive generalisation of technological advancement. Many of our most important inventions today were invented by accident not out of necessity. Even without limitations, advancement may occur.

[Calibrations Expert]

I fail to see any difference between synthesis and control.

I'd prefer to stop the Reapers without collateral damage or putting gross reaper bits and Shepard's insides in everyone. Control is the medium between something bad and something pointless.

[TeffexPope]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

LTKerr wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

I agree. The disturbing thing is that the leaked script and the game itself both indicate that synthesis is supposed to be the best.

If that's true... well, I don't know what to say, it doesn't make any sense. It's stupid. So Bioware thought that the best way to end the trilogy is turning every organic into whatever cyborg with silicon DNA and every synthetic into...eh... some kind of three-fingered cylon?

It's because they were literally copying Deus Ex. The mistake they made was that with the Deus Ex version of synthesis, it was only the main character and the other options were much, much worse for the world. Not forced genetic rape for everyone that does very little to help the situation, as it was in ME3.

It's also OK for Deus Ex to have this ending because...its named Deus Ex. ME on the other hand? Not acceptable.

[Calibrations Expert]

TeffexPope wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

LTKerr wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

I agree. The disturbing thing is that the leaked script and the game itself both indicate that synthesis is supposed to be the best.

If that's true... well, I don't know what to say, it doesn't make any sense. It's stupid. So Bioware thought that the best way to end the trilogy is turning every organic into whatever cyborg with silicon DNA and every synthetic into...eh... some kind of three-fingered cylon?

It's because they were literally copying Deus Ex. The mistake they made was that with the Deus Ex version of synthesis, it was only the main character and the other options were much, much worse for the world. Not forced genetic rape for everyone that does very little to help the situation, as it was in ME3.

It's also OK for Deus Ex to have this ending because...its named Deus Ex. ME on the other hand? Not acceptable.

Deus Ex: Where your ending is a deus ex machina
Mass Effect: Where your choices effect the outcome

The order of the universe has been put off balance.

Modifié par Calibrations Expert, 25 avril 2012 - 02:04 .

[zaeeds rage]

Seeing Javik walk out in the synthesis ending was odd. I can't imagine him feeling anything other than unquenchable rage. It would have been more likely he would take out it on Joker and Edi whom he already had contempt for than frolicking into the false Eden he so desperately fought against. You want bittersweet? Have Javik murder Joker and Edi in synthesis. There's your consequence

Modifié par zaeeds rage, 25 avril 2012 - 02:08 .

[Bad King]

ThinkIntegral wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
Javik doesn't apply, simply because Synthesis removes the divide. Even Saren and the Zha were not perfect hybrids - merely implanted organics.

LOLOLOL , blindly devoted to Synthesis as always, eh Optimystic?

Of course Javik's conversation applies.  He gives more insight into the effects of comining organic and synthetic life than the Catalyst does!   He provides a canon historical example of the damage it can cause!  Not assumptions, not guesses, not speculation - actual examples of machines merging with organics.

Just because you think the implications... unpleasant, doesn't make it irrelevant to the debate.  It just means you're once again sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the warnings given to you in the game.

The Catalyst gives you less than a minute of dialogue about Synthesis.  With no explanations or guarantees.  Less than 60 seconds of dialogue convinced to do what the Catalyst wanted you to do.  Good work.

He gives you one example from his cycle, and in that cycle the Zha'til supplemented AI's onto their bodies rather than, arguably, merging tech into their organic being that keeps a person's identity intact.  Second, he is incredibly biased coming from the tail end of a cycle where the majority of his life has been fighting the Reapers.

Javik's convo may apply, but his credibility, to me, is low.

The Catalyst isn't convincing you of anything.  You still have a choice. In fact, were it not for the Crucible the Catalyst would've continued the cycle of harvesting.  The Catalyst explicitly says the Crucible "changed it."  As such, any concept of it trying to convince you of going the Synthesis route would technically be the outcome of the work done on the Crucible; all the previous work of organics.

Unless you're trying to say it's all a last ditch attempt of it to preserve itself. But I didn't hear that in its tone and if that were true it would've stopped Shepard from shooting the power junction.

This. Implants =/= changing the genetic code. The genetic code was only altered after the AI seized control, and the genetic code then consisted of the artificial side dominating the organic side- there was no merging/synthesis, just one side dominating the other. In the case of synthesis the genetic code is changed meaning AI and organics no longer exist, only hybrids. Both sides are merged as one form of life. There is no longer any dualism, no side controls the other because the 'sides' simply don't exist any more.

Modifié par Bad King, 25 avril 2012 - 02:08 .

[Kath]

Bad King wrote...

Katherine wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

lalaquen wrote...

I thought that the fact that it was a bad idea would've been obvious to everyone the minute the Catalyst VI/AI said: "synthesis is the final evolution of life". Evolution is essentially just drift/change; an ongoing process that occurs as the direct byproduct of life. The only way for it to "end" is for all life capable of growth and change to end.

I agree with what you say about evolution. I had over 5000 EMS and he said the synthesis would be the FINAL evolution of life. Bad news.

"All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming, compensating for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations! No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates! Works other way too. Advancement before culture is ready, disastrous. Saw it with Krogan. Uplifted by Salarians. Disastrous. Our Fault."


-- Dr. Mordin Solus, ME2

I love Mordin and all but that's a massive generalisation of technological advancement. Many of our most important inventions today were invented by accident not out of necessity. Even without limitations, advancement may occur.

This is true, it is a broad generalization.  Although, I think it sort of fits the scenario Synthesis generates. Synthesis is supposed to be the final stage of evolution. It is also supposed to be the "solution" to the war between synthetics and organics. No conflict and no evolution = stagnant culture. Sure, accidents can happen, but the likelyhood of technological advancement diminishes without necessity.

[Bad King]

Katherine wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Katherine wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

lalaquen wrote...

I thought that the fact that it was a bad idea would've been obvious to everyone the minute the Catalyst VI/AI said: "synthesis is the final evolution of life". Evolution is essentially just drift/change; an ongoing process that occurs as the direct byproduct of life. The only way for it to "end" is for all life capable of growth and change to end.

I agree with what you say about evolution. I had over 5000 EMS and he said the synthesis would be the FINAL evolution of life. Bad news.

"All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming, compensating for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations! No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates! Works other way too. Advancement before culture is ready, disastrous. Saw it with Krogan. Uplifted by Salarians. Disastrous. Our Fault."


-- Dr. Mordin Solus, ME2

I love Mordin and all but that's a massive generalisation of technological advancement. Many of our most important inventions today were invented by accident not out of necessity. Even without limitations, advancement may occur.

This is true, it is a broad generalization.  Although, I think it sort of fits the scenario Synthesis generates. Synthesis is supposed to be the final stage of evolution. It is also supposed to be the "solution" to the war between synthetics and organics. No conflict and no evolution = stagnant culture. Sure, accidents can happen, but the likelyhood of technological advancement diminishes without necessity.

But our technological advancement and cultural change over the last few thousand years has nothing to do with evolution. I'm not exactly sure what starchild meant by "the final stage of evolution" but if he meant that we can biologically evolve no further following synthesis, that in no way means that we cannot develop technologically.

As for war, yes, synthesis is apparently a way of preventing future war between organic and AI, but it's unclear that it prevents all conflict. Though I certainly wouldn't mind living comfortably as a hybrid demi-god in a universe where there is no war, even if it did mean that technological development slowed down a little.

Hell, if the reapers are now our palls, maybe they could teach us a thing or two about technology!

Modifié par Bad King, 25 avril 2012 - 02:59 .

[Byronic-Knight]

Technically, the second bit you highlighted ("In their eyes, organics have no reason to exist. Do not trust them, Commander. . . ") could be used to argue for the synthetics vs organics theme as having a prominence---which I think is appropriate for the scene, since you're heading to Rannoch, at the end of which you resolve the conflict between synthetics (Geth) and organics (Quarians).

The first part, however, is dead on: forcibly fusing organics and synthetics---in Javik's example, out of desperation---is implied (or outright stated) throughout the series to be a bad thing.

The more extreme example is the Collectors. The Reapers couldn't assimilate them, so they mutated them through technology to suit their needs.

[Bad King]

Byronic-Knight wrote...

Technically, the second bit you highlighted ("In their eyes, organics have no reason to exist. Do not trust them, Commander. . . ") could be used to argue for the synthetics vs organics theme as having a prominence---which I think is appropriate for the scene, since you're heading to Rannoch, at the end of which you resolve the conflict between synthetics (Geth) and organics (Quarians).

The first part, however, is dead on: forcibly fusing organics and synthetics---in Javik's example, out of desperation---is implied (or outright stated) throughout the series to be a bad thing.

The more extreme example is the Collectors. The Reapers couldn't assimilate them, so they mutated them through technology to suit their needs.

The difference is though is that synthesis isn't fusing organic and synthetic parts together: it's instead merging them into a hybrid genetic code and completely removing the concepts of organic and synthetic, thus preventing either side from dominating/eradicating the other.

[PsyrenY]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
Javik doesn't apply, simply because Synthesis removes the divide. Even Saren and the Zha were not perfect hybrids - merely implanted organics.

LOLOLOL , blindly devoted to Synthesis as always, eh Optimystic?

I'm the blind one? Irony 

Optimystic_X wrote... 
Of course Javik's conversation applies.  He gives more insight into the effects of comining organic and synthetic life than the Catalyst does!   He provides a canon historical example of the damage it can cause!  Not assumptions, not guesses, not speculation - actual examples of machines merging with organics.

Just because you think the implications... unpleasant, doesn't make it irrelevant to the debate.  It just means you're once again sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the warnings given to you in the game.

The Catalyst gives you less than a minute of dialogue about Synthesis.  With no explanations or guarantees.  Less than 60 seconds of dialogue convinced to do what the Catalyst wanted you to do.  Good work.

All Javik provides insight to is implanting yourself, which Saren and TIM already showed me was a bad idea. Synthesis is clearly not the same thing; what implants did Joker use?

The fact is that the implications of synthesis aren't unpleasant; they are merely unknown, beyond the brief glimpse of a perfectly happy EDI and Joker we get in the green ending. You're free to assume the worst of course, but as my name implies I'm a bit more inclined to see the brighter side of things.

And as a transhumanist I find Synthesis quite appealing.