45 réponses à ce sujet

[Nuchy]

Garlador wrote...

Catalyst also said I'd die. I didn't. Lying brat.

The kid was trying to screw you over, and I called him on his bluff.

I mean, who would honestly trust the words of a genocidal machine that has murdered TRILLIONS of individuals? Seriously? I mean, apart from Bioware's writers...

Apparently Shepard would

[SuperVulcan]

Nuchy wrote...

Hmmm well honestly I think its just bad writing, I dont think there's some deeper meaning too it. I just wanted to point out that pretty much everything that happens in the ending is a plothole.

I agree.

[kal_reegar]

Given that I find the ending horrible, the motivation may be that the catalyst knows that they've lost. It's just a matter of time.
The variables have been changed: independently from shepard being able to activate and use the crucibile, and the result of the battle, winning against this cycle has taken too long, the reapers did too many mistakes etc.

A pyrrhic victory.
Refusal ending proves that -> thanks to Liara's info, the next cycle will defeat the reapers in any case.


So, if the catalyst doesn't help shepard and let the crucible being destroyed by the reapers, nothing change: his solution will fail anyway. Not now, but it will fail.

A new solution is required.
Space mag.. ehm, synthesis is of course the perfect solution for him.
Control and Destroy... are an act of faith respectively in Shepard or in this cycle. Probably the space brat assumes that THIS cycle has more chance to solve the PROBLEM, compared to the next cycle (who, the catalyst knows, will defeat him and the reapers).
This cycle is special, shepard is exceptional etc, everybody say that. Poor writing, but the efforts this cycle/shepard has done are remarkable indeed. No cycle/hero will be more self-aware of how different races (even synthetics) can cooperate and respect each other despite the differences.

[m2iCodeJockey]

Nuchy wrote...
What is the catalyst's motivation for helping Shepard?

To get people to willingly accept Synthesis. On the surface, to make organics and synthetic equal. Beneath that, it makes the entire galaxy ready to be rooted.

[Necrotron]

That was part of the problem for me, there really seems to be zero reason for the catalyst to help Shepard other than to progress the story to an ending.

It makes it feel like the Reapers suddenly decided to defeat themselves without reason, which steals the satisfaction from the player, because obviously the player would have lost if the Reapers didn't defeat themselves by bringing Shepard up to the platform.

The idea of the player being brought up by a platform to meet an inhuman, logical being is neat, but it just didn't really translate well into the story.  The A.I. unfortunetly came across more as insane, than a logical being just seeking for the best solution to a problem, because the way he decribes the problem is completely with logical fallacies and generalizations that are contradicted directly within the story.

I am curious if anyone has developed a good story based 'cause' for why the catalyst suddenly decided to make Shepard 'the one' and give him complete authority to decide the universe's fate.

Modifié par Bathaius, 06 décembre 2012 - 08:42 .

[KingZayd]

SuperVulcan wrote...

I think your take on synthesis is incorrect. I do not think it will make toasters or inanimate objects to become self-aware.

The reason the catalyst gives up its power is because Shepard is able to use the crucible. With this development, the Catalyst has failed and lets Shepard decide what's best.

Shepard is unable to use the Crucible unless the Starchild lets him.

[KingZayd]

2papercuts wrote...

SuperVulcan wrote...

2papercuts wrote...

SuperVulcan wrote...

I think your take on synthesis is incorrect. I do not think it will make toasters or inanimate objects to become self-aware. .

Have any evidence to support that? Because the way I see it it very well could.

I guess the only evidence I have is the fact that the Normandy itself appears to be the same in Synthesis.

um how could the beam differentiate between what is "synthetic" and what is just a computer program?


Plus you dont know if the ship didn't become conscious and then die

AI heuristics. It's how they discovered the Virtual Aliens.

[Kataphrut94]

He doesn't give a crap about us. He just wants us to use the Crucible and replace his solution with a better one. The fact that it works out in our favour by ending the Reaper conflict is just incentive fr us to go along with it.

[shepskisaac]

kal_reegar wrote...

Given that I find the ending horrible, the motivation may be that the catalyst knows that they've lost. It's just a matter of time.

The variables have been changed: independently from shepard being able to activate and use the crucibile, and the result of the battle, winning against this cycle has taken too long, the reapers did too many mistakes etc.

A pyrrhic victory.
Refusal ending proves that -> thanks to Liara's info, the next cycle will defeat the reapers in any case.


So, if the catalyst doesn't help shepard and let the crucible being destroyed by the reapers, nothing change: his solution will fail anyway. Not now, but it will fail.

A new solution is required.
Space mag.. ehm, synthesis is of course the perfect solution for him.
Control and Destroy... are an act of faith respectively in Shepard or in this cycle. Probably the space brat assumes that THIS cycle has more chance to solve the PROBLEM, compared to the next cycle (who, the catalyst knows, will defeat him and the reapers).
This cycle is special, shepard is exceptional etc, everybody say that. Poor writing, but the efforts this cycle/shepard has done are remarkable indeed. No cycle/hero will be more self-aware of how different races (even synthetics) can cooperate and respect each other despite the differences.

It's a thread necromancy, but this is correct.

[Heimdall]

Worst writing in the series.

Now, if the ending options had been modified and someone besides the Catalyst like EDI had presented them, things might have made more sense.

[dorktainian]

SELF PRESERVATION

[JamesFaith]

Catalyst thought that he lost battle. He knew that Shepard already knew about Destroy and Control, and because Destroy, probably less popular solution from Catalysts perspective, can be trigger accidently - Shepard can try blow up room and destroy that tube - Catalyst tried to influence Shepard.

It is old car salesmans trick, that they admit some existing flaw, when they know buyer can find them or already know about them (Destroy + Control) to gain his trust and then try to sell it. Catalyst acted same, he tried gain Shepards trust by admitting existence of Destroy and Control and then he tried "sell" Shepard his best solution for current situation - Synthesis.

[Peranor]

I'm glad you resurrected this thread. I've missed it.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I think we're missing the boat if we look at it from the perspective of "winning" or "losing," especially after the EC and Leviathan. The Catalyst is not trying to "win" anything and may not even care about preserving its own existence. It's given a mandate to prevent the eventual extermination of organics by synthetics. It now sees that the Reaper solution may have failed and that there could be other options. That's all the motivation it needs, IMO.

[Laforgus]

He is not helping Shepard, he just noticed that his FLAW Solution have a new Variable, and is an organic with a fully functional Crucible.

[andy6915]

He didn't help. The Crucible was forcing him to relay information whether he liked it or not, even forcing him to bring up the destroy option when it was the number 1 thing he DIDN'T want chosen... And even explain how to do it. He also hated control, but was forced to mention it too. He didn't have a say in anything. If I decide to choose destroy or control, the best he can do is whine about it because he has absolutely no recourse to stop me.

He didn't help you by choice, he didn't want to, gave you options he despised and told you how to do it regardless of his opinions, and was even forced to bring you up on that elevator at the control panel (the fact that he acts really really ticked off when he does this a low EMS is proof of that, because why else would he bring you up if he didn't even want you up there to begin with?). He was 100% at your mercy, being forced to do what you and the Crucible demanded.

That is also why refuse shuts down the Crucible. The Crucible was linked with you, and was doing what you asked it to. From the moment you touched the control panel, it was doing what your mind told it to. When you refuse, you're pretty much telling the Crucible to shut down. It's asking you through the Catalyst "what do you wish this program to perform?", and refusing is like you clicking cancel. Think of it as a computer, you have an EXE file asking what you wish to do and refusing is you clicking to cancel the file altogether. The moment you did that, the Catalyst stopped being controlled by the Crucible and regained full control of himself, which is why he's suddenly talking like a Reaper and making it clear that he's going to keep killing everyone. Refusing is telling the Crucible to shut down and allowing the Catalyst to regain control... Which is why it's such a supremely stupid choice. So when the Crucible asks what function you want done, give it a real answer, don't close the program out of fear.

[N7Gold]

Nuchy wrote...

 From what I can tell, the Catalyst is an AI thats sole purpose is to protect organics from synthetics, by harvesting advanced civilizations before they can create synthetics. Plotholes aside, it appears to me, that the AI is corrupt, his methods for "saving" organics could be entirely different from what he was designed to do. 

Anyways the point is, his core function is to protect organics from the synthetics they create. 

The thing is NONE of the endings fix the "problem" the AI is designed to fix, and he should know that. 

1. Destroy: This one is obvious, this would essientally break the cycle the AI is designed to uphold, he does make it sound like the worst option, maybe something in his programming forces him to present shepard the option. The AI clearly hasnt been around organics for awhile, his core programming could force him to lay all options on the table, he can twist and turn things to make some options look better than others. But I can only speculate on this. Anyways that still doesnt fix the "problem"

2. Control: This one doesnt fix the problem, The catalyst offers Shepard his seat on the throne. But what does the Catalyst expect shepard to do differently than he already does? Let me explain: As stated before, the cataysts goal is to protect organics from the synthetics they create. If the catalyst believes the best course of action is to "ascend the other races in Reaper form" than why would he hand his power over to shepard? At best, shepard would decide the same course of action as the AI, but this is actually kind of unlikely, since shepard wants to stop the reapers, it doesnt make sense that the AI would give shepard the power. I can go into more detail if you dont understand this. 

3. Synthesis: This ending is made out to be the "Best" ending by the catalyst. But it is actually the WORST. Okay, so its kind of unclear how synthesis even works, but apparently now everyone has the same DNA and is part synthetic. Soooo how does this fix the probelm? It doesnt. Synthetic-organics can still create synthetics! And those synthetics will still rise against synthetic-organics, so apparently the reapers are still needed. Unless the space magic green beam makes all technology self aware(which im pretty sure it doesnt) that would mean every computer, every space ship, every toaster, every car, ETC would be "aware". This would end horribly for the synthetic-organics, how long will the toasters make my toast before they revolt! And I cant use guns against them because those are aware too now. looks like everyone is screwed. 

Furthermore, the Citedal is destroyed in synthesis, and the reapers are now "free" what will they do with their new found freedom? What if they just go around killing people still, just because they can? 

So as you can see, me a mere human, could see the flaws in the "solutions" but somehow an ancient super computer AI couldnt.

It may seem like he's gone corrupt, harvesting his own creators, and the lives he was programmed to preserve, but his creators, the Leviathans, even though they didn't approve of the Catalyst's solution, they say they've made no mistakes, the Catalyst has not gone rogue. They programmed the AI to preserve all life at any cost, emphasis on "at any cost", meaning there are no rules, no restrictions in the Catalyst's programming.

The harvest does NOT fulfill the purpose of the Catalyst, only Synthesis does, since it is known as the "ideal solution" to the Catalyst. If you haven't played the Leviathan DLC, the Leviathan Shepard speaks to gives subtle hints that when you meet the Intelligence (Catalyst) in the Citadel, his "You're the first organic to get here, that means the harvest solution won't work anymore, we need a new solution" BS is all a lie and act, the Catalyst knows exactly what it needs, it just needs to manipulate an organic like Shepard to get it since he wasn't created to make those "new possibilities" happen, if the Crucible is fully completed enough to offer that solution.

Shepard: "What's the point in all these harvests?"

Leviathan: "The Intelligence (Catalyst) has one purpose: Preservation of life. That purpose is not being fulfilled. It directed the Reapers to create the mass relays, to speed the time between cycles to greatest efficiency. The galaxy itself became an experiment. Evolution its tool."

Shepard: "Will it ever end?"

Leviathan: "Unknown. Until the Intelligence finds what its looking for, the harvest will continue."

1. Destroy: The least favored solution to the Catalyst, because even though the Reapers and all synthetic life will die, the peace won't last because sometime in the future, advanced civilizations will create more synthetics, reviving the chaos between organic and synthetics. In case you haven't noticed, this shouldn't be possible since the Council has banned the research and creation of AIs, so what could possibly happen in the near future that will make everyone want to create synthetics despite the fact that research and creation of AIs are prohibited? Could the Catalyst's creators, the Leviathans return to dominate the galaxy with their seemingly limitless power after secretly repopulating for many centuries and "lesser organics" try to build synthetics like the Geth to fight them off since machines like the Geth are immune to indoctrination and mind control?

2. Control: My answer to your question is simply speculation, but I think the reason why the Catalyst offers Shepard his seat is because since Shepard is not naturally a life form with the ability to control the minds of other species, Shepard can be easily overwhelmed by the Leviathans when they come back after many centuries of hiding and repopulating and make the Reapers and Shepard, their controlling "AI" their slaves, and use them to dominate the galaxy, making other races pay tribute to them. Just because Shepard is control of the Reapers doesn't mean the Leviathans can't hijack control of the Reapers. This probably explains why the Catalyst smiles deviously as Shepard's body dissolves, because it knows that once his surviving creators are done repopulating, there's no way Shepard, who is in control of the Reapers can stop them, the Leviathans are infinitely more powerful than the Reapers.

3. Synthesis: I'm going to enjoy explaining this. You're right, however, this IS the WORST ending. it may seem beautiful, but it isn't right, like how you stand in the presidium, looking at a beautiful lake, thinking you're in paradise when the this is all an illusion, the truth is there's a Reaper invasion outside the Citadel, and you're only in a small, private heaven. The reason why the Catalyst favors this solution is because it's an "everybody wins" solution. He claims that organics seek perfection through technology, which is difficult to understand, he doesn't mean organics wish to be half synthetic, it means organic races need technology and machines to improve their lives, which is the main reason of for the chaos, the more advanced their society gets, the more sophisticated machines have to be to serve the needs of their creators, which will eventually lead to the machines becoming self aware, and a disobedient machine is no good to the creator. Without technology, without machines, we'd be stuck using bows and arrows and wagons made out of stones and wood. As for synthetics, the Catalyst claims that synthetics will understand organics, which is pretty easy to understand. Because their organics creators attempt to destroy or regain control over a synthetic if something goes wrong, it makes sentient synthetics scornful towards organic life in general, making them believe that all organics desire to control or destroy synthetic life, just like that A.I. in the terminal on the ME1 Signal Tracking side mission believed.



As long as organics aim to control synthetics to serve their needs, or destroy them if they get out of line to create more obedient synthetics and synthetics view organics as selfish, oppressive "villains" , then the chaos is inevitable. Now let me get to why Synthesis is bad. The Catalyst needs this solution because its the solution that its creators wanted it to find. The Leviathans not only wanted to save organic and synthetic life, but also to control them. In the Leviathan DLC, a scientist named Ann Bryson who studued the Rachni points out the mind control signals of the Leviathans and Rachni are similar to a Quantum Entanglement Communicator machine, (the machine used to communicate with the Illusive Man in ME2 and Anderson and Hackett in ME3), and that the Leviathans use their crystal ball devices (the same devices they use to watch the galaxy from where they hide) to establish a connection for their mind controlling ability and control the mind of whoever is near the other ball. When you think back to the Catalyst in the Extended Cut, he tells you that he was first created to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life, to "establish a connection", what means he's looking for a solution that will not only save organic and synthetic life, but also link them to the Leviathans mind controlling abilities so they can "wirelessly" control the minds of any organic no matter where they are, which is exactly what the Synthesis DNA does, it does not turn organics into synthetic hybrids, it establishes that connection, making a network of mentally connected machines and organic races, rendering the Leviathans crystal balls obsolete, due to the limited connection they can establish. The Leviathans can use the Synthesis DNA to secretly dominate the galaxy while everyone is living "happily ever after".

The Citadel is damaged, not destroyed, the Reapers won't be harvestng anyone anymore. because the Catalyst, who once controlled them has completed its purpose. He used the Reapers to suppress the evolution of organic life in the galaxy because the more advanced a race's technology gets, the more advanced machines are needed to do "advanced tasks" that is either too difficult or too dangerous for their organic creators to perform, as evidenced by the quarians when they networked the Geth to do more complex jobs, bringing them closer and closer to true AIs.

We seriously misunderstood the Catalyst's goals, but that doesn't mean we should trust the damn thing, this holographic brat is trying to create a window of opportunity to give his creators, the Leviathans control over the galaxy,  just like the times before the Reapers existed. No matter what "solution" of the Crucible we choose, none of them are true victories.

Modifié par N7Gold, 07 décembre 2012 - 06:35 .

[kal_reegar]

andy69156915 wrote...

He didn't help. The Crucible was forcing him to relay information whether he liked it or not, even forcing him to bring up the destroy option when it was the number 1 thing he DIDN'T want chosen... And even explain how to do it. He also hated control, but was forced to mention it too. He didn't have a say in anything. If I decide to choose destroy or control, the best he can do is whine about it because he has absolutely no recourse to stop me.

He didn't help you by choice, he didn't want to, gave you options he despised and told you how to do it regardless of his opinions, and was even forced to bring you up on that elevator at the control panel (the fact that he acts really really ticked off when he does this a low EMS is proof of that, because why else would he bring you up if he didn't even want you up there to begin with?). He was 100% at your mercy, being forced to do what you and the Crucible demanded.

That is also why refuse shuts down the Crucible. The Crucible was linked with you, and was doing what you asked it to. From the moment you touched the control panel, it was doing what your mind told it to. When you refuse, you're pretty much telling the Crucible to shut down. It's asking you through the Catalyst "what do you wish this program to perform?", and refusing is like you clicking cancel. Think of it as a computer, you have an EXE file asking what you wish to do and refusing is you clicking to cancel the file altogether. The moment you did that, the Catalyst stopped being controlled by the Crucible and regained full control of himself, which is why he's suddenly talking like a Reaper and making it clear that he's going to keep killing everyone. Refusing is telling the Crucible to shut down and allowing the Catalyst to regain control... Which is why it's such a supremely stupid choice. So when the Crucible asks what function you want done, give it a real answer, don't close the program out of fear.

this is certainly a logical and coherent possibility.
but in this case the crucible is... how can I say, something more than a superweapon that can "discharge of tremendous amounts of energy". It's something that can completely control the most advanced AI in the galaxy...

how is this possible? It's seems to me very unlikely that the protheans (or another race before them) knew:
1. the existence of the catalyst (not the citadel, the starbrat himself)
2. how to control him (like a sort of hacking)
3. what "command" him do to (if Tom touch the screen, then the elevator etc)

nobody was closer to victory  than Shepard, and he knew almost nothing about the catalyst.
Vendetta and Vigil too.


Maybe if the Crucible is (al least partially) Leviathan's tech... I I didn't buy the DLC, does the giant squid tell something about it?

[andy6915]

The Catalyst is the processor of the Citadel, and the Crucible pretty much hacks it when it docks. It took control of the Catalyst by proxy of controlling the Citadel. Hack the Citadel=hack the Catalyst. Prior knowledge of the Catalyst was not needed, controlling one is controlling the other. It was forcing the Citadel to give you the information on the different options, and the Catalyst just happened to be the mouthpiece for it because it's pretty much the mind and voice of the station. He became the interface of the Crucible.

[kal_reegar]

andy69156915 wrote...

The Catalyst is the processor of the Citadel, and the Crucible pretty much hacks it when it docks. It took control of the Catalyst by proxy of controlling the Citadel. Hack the Citadel=hack the Catalyst. Prior knowledge of the Catalyst was not needed, controlling one is controlling the other. It was forcing the Citadel to give you the information on the different options, and the Catalyst just happened to be the mouthpiece for it because it's pretty much the mind and voice of the station. He became the interface of the Crucible.

I don't think that citadel and catalyst completely coincide... or ME1, Soverign and Saren trying to taking control of the citadel makes no sense at all.

and the catalyst speak as he has "free will", not as he must give shepard all the information.
he defines the crucible a rude, able only to release a huge amount of energy... so is he lying?
he explains that his solution "won't wokk anymore" because Shepard and the crucible have changed the variables... is he lying again?
he doesn't answer some of Shepard questions... does a hacked AI do that?

[dorktainian]

there really is no need to think long and hard about this. the star kid 'offers' us three choices. Thats the illusion. That he is offering us the choices. They are his choices. He is protecting himself. Why not blow the reapers to hell? Can the crudible really do this? Why trust this creature at all? he will kill us all in a heartbeat. What gives him the right to tell us what to do? Also changing the variables? wtf does that mean in this context? Variables within his programming? How would attaching a strap on change the variables?