230 réponses à ce sujet

[darkiddd]

bump because the OP is awesome and I completely agree. Please Bioware think about it, the IT is AWESOME and it fits perfectly with the three games and especially the dream sequences, Shepard's mental struggle and fatigue, the child not interacting with anyone except you, the strange three choices nobody wants to make and shepard doesn't question as if he was... mmm... indoctrinated? it all fits. PLEEEEEEEASE MAKE IT SO!!!!!!!

[Jayleia]

IT isn't airtight.

But it is a "Get out of Jail Free" card that lets the game finish in a non-suck way.

And its about the best option they've got.

Though, I must admit, the idea of being headfaked like that is...a bit annoying, but if they pull it off, it'll be BLEEPING awesome.

[Makrys]

estebanus wrote...

The way you've captured your viewpoint of the indoctrination theory is almost eerily the same as mine!

Immensely enjoyable read! Kudos to you!

Thank you for taking the time

[Makrys]

Edorian27 wrote...

After I played the game I was confused a bit. I did like the ending, but didn't understand it.
I knew things were wrong (Why don't I wear my combat suit? / Why can't I shoot the keeper?/ Why is destroy labeled Renegade-red...) but didn't put the pieces together. Finally I chose "Destroy" simply because I never liked synthetics *g*.

When I read / saw the whole IT, it made perfect sense. I believe it is true, and I have never enjoyed being fooled by a game more. Getting (as a player) indoctrinated without even recognizing, it spans the arc to Saren and ME1, I love the thought that this war can not be won by brute force but by a strong mind and quick thinking and can be figuered out by actually paying attention to what people say about indoctrination before and putting the pieces together.

Just brilliant programming imo. 

Agreed. If one pays attention to all the subtle hints and clues throughout the game and trilogy, its hard to not believe in the IT. Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts!

Modifié par Makrys, 29 avril 2012 - 06:21 .

[Makrys]

darkiddd wrote...

bump because the OP is awesome and I completely agree. Please Bioware think about it, the IT is AWESOME and it fits perfectly with the three games and especially the dream sequences, Shepard's mental struggle and fatigue, the child not interacting with anyone except you, the strange three choices nobody wants to make and shepard doesn't question as if he was... mmm... indoctrinated? it all fits. PLEEEEEEEASE MAKE IT SO!!!!!!!

Haha someone is eager! And thanks for the compliment

[Makrys]

Jayleia wrote...

IT isn't airtight.

But it is a "Get out of Jail Free" card that lets the game finish in a non-suck way.

And its about the best option they've got.

Though, I must admit, the idea of being headfaked like that is...a bit annoying, but if they pull it off, it'll be BLEEPING awesome.

I understand. But personally, I think it is awesome! Having to figure out on your own as the player that you are in fact being indoctrinated, would be one of the most immersive moments in video game history. I think the IT is brilliant. And there is credible proof that it was intended from the start. It just makes so much sense considering the codex entry and lore. Indoctrination is a central theme of the series, and to see it come full circle and have an effect on Shepard is just amazing story telling. Even the best of us can fall. And I like thinking that Shepard isn't invinvible, as much as he seems to be. The IT would basically prove that even Shepard almost gave in to the Reapers, but in the end it was his incredibly strong-will (as Liara pointed out) that saved both him and the galaxy. That would be an amazing ending to an amazing trilogy. If done right. And I have faith in Bioware.

Modifié par Makrys, 29 avril 2012 - 06:26 .

[OH-UP-THIS!]

IT would be by far the most brilliant plot TWIST to ever hit video-gaming, first and foremost because, it has never been done before.

This theory has also rekindled my 6 week imagination-slump, because of the differing directions it could take.

I can imagine again, Thank You, Makrys.

[elegolas1]

agreed op, nice read

[BatmanTurian]

OP sounds like me three minutes after the credits rolled. " That little pipsqueek is lying his pants off. "

People who don't get I.T., don't like it, or just won't believe it have their reasons and I'm not going to excoriate them for it. I can respect their opinion and still think their out of their minds in denial.
Both camps think the other is in denial. This is the "SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE" that Bioware wanted, but obviously we will find out what the true interpretation is eventually. Unlike the argument between atheists and religion (which Anti-IT like to compare this argument to), we really can find out who is right and who is wrong. In fact, we've already been promised an explanation by a third party who we might as well compare to God or the Universe, since they are the creators of the fictional Mass Effect universe.

We can get answers (eventually) because we can question the creators directly. However, the difference is that in our universe (unless something universe-changing happens) the jury will always be out on the meaning of life and whether there is a God. It will always be about faith, unlike the IDT which is built on evidence. Not only that, but much of the evidence is actually so damning that you have to do mental gymnastics to ignore it. I won't even go into the active denial of literary elements.

At any rate, excellent post, OP. The problem is that many people don't think that deeply about things in media like you and I do. The more you explain to them, the more it seems to infuriate and confuse them. I thought gamers wanted games to be accepted as a medium of art and this interpretation of the ending (if true) would cement that or at least give it a nod. Why deny a storytelling technique possibility in a story-driven game where our choices are supposed to matter, especially at the part where it matters the most? I just don't understand the disconnect, honestly.

[Mobius-Silent]

Makrys wrote...

Whether you believe in it or not, you have to admit, its pretty neat.

Not at all. all of the "evidence" I see is either deliberate misunderstanding, outright falehoods or denial.
I.T. consists of the same mental tricks that start religions, it's not "compelling" its not "neat" its _really_ forced fanfic. Fine and dandy for "I like to think of the ending like this" but really _really_ annoying when it's presented as "OMG BIoware are geniuses look at all the PROOF why can't you see its brilliant! you just don't get .I.T, lol you're just in denial!"

Oh hell, looks like I've just posted directly under one of them... great

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 30 avril 2012 - 08:21 .

[BatmanTurian]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Whether you believe in it or not, you have to admit, its pretty neat.

Not at all. all of the "evidence" I see is either deliberate misunderstanding, outright falehoods or denial.
I.T. consists of the same mental tricks that start religions, it's not "compelling" its not "neat" its _really_ forced fanfic. Fine and dandy for "I like to think of the ending like this" but really _really_ annoying when it's presented as "OMG BIoware are geniuses look at all the PROOF why can't you see its brilliant! you just don't get .I.T, lol you're just in denial!"

Oh hell, looks like I've just posted directly under one of them... great

Again, both camps say the other is in denial. Neither of us have a claim to say we're completely right. We have to wait for Bioware to say. In that way, it is nothing like a religion, conspiracy, or anything like that. It is literalists taking the story for what it is and others looking at the story to see if there is something deeper. Thank you for proving my point.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 30 avril 2012 - 02:39 .

[OdanUrr]

BatmanTurian wrote...

I thought gamers wanted games to be accepted as a medium of art and this interpretation of the ending (if true) would cement that or at least give it a nod.

I'm afraid ME2 proved Bioware still has a long way to go on that count.

[BatmanTurian]

OdanUrr wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

I thought gamers wanted games to be accepted as a medium of art and this interpretation of the ending (if true) would cement that or at least give it a nod.

I'm afraid ME2 proved Bioware still has a long way to go on that count.

Well, I meant in general. I wasn't specifically talking about Bioware, but point taken.

[Unit-Alpha]

Bravo, I have my doubts about IT, but it's still far more logical that if the endings we got were the actual endings. And yes, it is an incredibly interesting idea, regardless.

[Mobius-Silent]

BatmanTurian wrote...
Again, both camps say the other is in denial. Neither of us have a claim to say we're completely right. We have to wait for Bioware to say. In that way, it is nothing like a religion, conspiracy, or anything like that. It is literalists taking the story for what it is and others looking at the story to see if there is something deeper. Thank you for proving my point.

And yet I see assertions frequently that Bioware _must_ have intended I.T. because their gamecraft would never be this bad. I rarely see "I think it was intended but I understand the evidence is circumstantial at best".

And again you come out with gems like

BatmanTurian wrote...
"others looking at the story to see if there is something deeper"

Nonsense! I.T. _isn't_ deeper, it's not smart, at it's best it's a cop-out at it's worst it's looking at a piece of toast and seeing the face of Jesus.
I didn't say "Oh man this Indoctrination Theory looks complex I'll just stick with what I see in the game" I read each piece of "proof" evaluated it and rejected it as "proof" of anything. I'm apalled by the quality of the ME3 ending but I'm not letting that bind me to specious reasoning because it provides a convenient get-out for Bioware.

BatmanTurian wrote...
We have to wait for Bioware to say. In that way, it is nothing like a religion

But _right now_ it is very much like a creationist/evolution argument (I.T. people using circular arguments to suggest that they need to be disproved). I'm just thankful the E.C. will eventually put an end to it. But in the meantime all those people who (I'm sure) will be raging when I.T. is completely ignored (Not "disproved", just ignored) could be helping right now in getting the junk we have (And will be stuck with) overturned.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 30 avril 2012 - 03:26 .

[Mobius-Silent]

Accidental double

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 30 avril 2012 - 03:18 .

[BatmanTurian]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Again, both camps say the other is in denial. Neither of us have a claim to say we're completely right. We have to wait for Bioware to say. In that way, it is nothing like a religion, conspiracy, or anything like that. It is literalists taking the story for what it is and others looking at the story to see if there is something deeper. Thank you for proving my point.

And yet I see assertions frequently that Bioware _must_ have intended I.T. because their gamecraft would never be this bad. I rarely see "I think it was intended but I understand the evidence is circumstantial at best".

And again you come out with jems like

BatmanTurian wrote...
"others looking at the story to see if there is something deeper"

Nonsense! I.T. _isn't_ deeper, it's not smart, at it's best it's a cop-out at it's worst it's looking at a piece of toast and seeing the face of Jesus.
I didn't say "Oh man this Indoctrination Theory looks complex I'll just stick with what I see in the game" I read each piece of "proof" evaluated it and rejected it as "proof" of anything. I'm apalled by the quality of the ME3 ending but I'm not letting that bind me to specious reasoning because it provides a convenient get-out for Bioware.

Keep talking. You're doing nothing but proving me right. See, even I admit I could be wrong, but you're in denial that you could ever be wrong. And that's some Grade A hubris. We won't know the truth until Bioware releases the EC. That's a fact and you can't ignore it without dispensing with logic altogether.

"at it's worst it's looking at a piece of toast and seeing the face of Jesus."

Again, you compare it to religion. It's nothing of the sort and highly insulting to say so.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 30 avril 2012 - 03:24 .

[Mobius-Silent]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Keep talking. You're doing nothing but proving me right. See, even I admit I could be wrong, but you're in denial that you could ever be wrong. And that's some Grade A hubris. We won't know the truth until Bioware releases the EC. That's a fact and you can't ignore it without dispensing with logic altogether.

What are you talking about? of course I could be wrong, the whole 3 games after the eden Prime beacon could be dream-indoctrination, anything is possible, the only question is how likely is it. As I've said my primary problem is with people suggesting that people who've seen their "proof" and disagreed either didn't understand or are in some other way mentally disadvantaged, as you've been doing

The question was asked:

Makrys wrote...
Whether you believe in it or not, you have to admit, its pretty neat.

 
My answer was, no I don't, it's not neat. It's a terrible idea and is not "proven" in any way by the "evidence" given by those who support it. that doesn't imply me being right about Bioware intending it, I'm pretty sure I am but we won't know until the E.C. as you say

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 30 avril 2012 - 03:47 .

[BatmanTurian]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Keep talking. You're doing nothing but proving me right. See, even I admit I could be wrong, but you're in denial that you could ever be wrong. And that's some Grade A hubris. We won't know the truth until Bioware releases the EC. That's a fact and you can't ignore it without dispensing with logic altogether.

What are you talking about? of course I could be wrong, the whole 3 games after the eden Prime Beacon could be dream-indoctrination, anything is possible, the only question is how likely is it. As I've said my primary problem is with people suggesting that people who've seen their "proof" and disagreed either didn't understand or are in some other way mentally disadvantaged, as you've been doing

What I am doing is saying that I lean towards one camp but both camps could be wrong. Also, I was disproving the fallacy of using the argument of atheism versus religion to compare to this argument. If you want to believe I'm saying that someone is disadvantaged because they don't understand or are mentally-challenged, you've missed my point entirely. Neither of us have a monopoly on the truth until the EC is released so dismissing either side completely is illogical, but not a symptom of brain damage, as you seem to imply that I am implying.

Very intelligent people think and say illogical things all the time. That doesn't make them mentally disadvantaged but it could be just their opinion and a different view of the issue. This is what I think it comes down to at this point, opinion and difference of interpretation until we know the real truth. I am honest when I say I don't understand why others hold the opposite viewpoint but I can still respect that their viewpoint could be entirely plausible. Like you, I find the opposite view more unlikely however. We are two sides of the same coin.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 30 avril 2012 - 03:40 .

[Humakt83]

Nice post.

But there is really one aspect that seems to be inevitable the way these theories are laid out in the game. And that is Reaper victory. If you add that ending is indoctrination, Crucible is a trap/goal/misdirection created by Reapers and that Reaper forces are suspiciously spread out in the galaxy. It leaves only conventional victory possible but even that seems very unlikely if the rest of the Reaper forces will emerge through the Mass Relay and flank the allied forces.

[BatmanTurian]

Humakt83 wrote...

Nice post.

But there is really one aspect that seems to be inevitable the way these theories are laid out in the game. And that is Reaper victory. If you add that ending is indoctrination, Crucible is a trap/goal/misdirection created by Reapers and that Reaper forces are suspiciously spread out in the galaxy. It leaves only conventional victory possible but even that seems very unlikely if the rest of the Reaper forces will emerge through the Mass Relay and flank the allied forces.

I think the commonly held belief is that the multiplayer is the Alliance of Species holding out against the Reapers and beating them in the other systems, which is why it is tracked and used as part of the EMS. If they are engaged elsewhere and getting their cuttlefish butts kicked, then they wouldn't bother with Earth. Harbinger has been shown to have a lot of overconfidence, so he could even be telling them to deal with the rest of the galaxy while he and some others on Earth " take control of the situation personally. "

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 30 avril 2012 - 03:52 .

[Mobius-Silent]

BatmanTurian wrote...
 I am honest when I say I don't understand why others hold the opposite viewpoint but I can still respect that their viewpoint could be entirely plausible

If you wish to think of yourself in this light I'd suggest you avoid starting a passive-aggressive missive with 

BatmanTurian wrote...
"People who don't get I.T"

Avoid things like

BatmanTurian wrote... 
"still think their out of their minds in denial."

 
Rethink comments like

BatmanTurian wrote...  
"but much of the evidence is actually so damning that you have to do mental gymnastics to ignore it"

And avoid assertions like

BatmanTurian wrote... 
"The problem is that many people don't think that deeply about things in media like you and I do"

 
Because they don't make you look good.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 30 avril 2012 - 03:54 .

[BatmanTurian]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
 I am honest when I say I don't understand why others hold the opposite viewpoint but I can still respect that their viewpoint could be entirely plausible

If you wish to think of yourself in this light I'd suggest you avoid starting a passive-aggressive missive with 

BatmanTurian wrote...
"People who don't get I.T"

Avoid things like

BatmanTurian wrote... 
"still think their out of their minds in denial."

 
Rethink comments like

BatmanTurian wrote...  
"but much of the evidence is actually so damning that you have to do mental gymnastics to ignore it"

And avoid assertions like

BatmanTurian wrote... 
"The problem is that many people don't think that deeply about things in media like you and I do"

 
Because they don't make you look good.

Honestly, you've been just as passive-aggressive, to the point of saying I am calling those who disagree mentally challenged, that I agree with a theory ( a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine. ) because I hold it out like it's religion when it's a view based on what I believe are somewhat credible facts. You should take your own advice.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 30 avril 2012 - 04:00 .

[soulprovider]

 IT theory is not a bad theory, what bothers me now is the bioware silence, by now they would have said something supporting IT if that was what they meant all along instead they have been ignoring the fan bas, also the interview in my signature kinda confirms that they viewed the universe as a wasteland once ME3 was done so as much as I'd like the religious coping mechanism known as the IT to be true I highly doubt it.

Also on another note, I agree with the mrbtongue vids when he states that he has a problem with the theory on a consumer level because if IT is true then we paid for an incomplete game with a possible conclusion to be released in summer and if we didn't say anything then they would have charged us for that ending, Everything they have done with ME3 is shown to be, to draw as much money as possible from the consumers, javik day one disk locked content, multiplayer card packs that resemble the "dollar for ammo" scenario the EA ceo was talking about, 70 dollars for a collectors edition with crap in it, 10 extra dollars for the ending DLC/plot hole tie up dlc, Mass effect Apps that probably cost 5-10 bucks a piece and something else I can't remember right now. Point being Everything right now seems to be a way to milk the fan base as much as possible without delivering as much as possible and IT theory seems to be a way of coping with that inevitabillity.

If the EC comes out and ruins the IT theory then EA can chalk it up to the games cycle ending, time to make another money milker.

[Mobius-Silent]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Honestly, you've been just as passive-aggressive, to the point of saying I am calling those who disagree mentally challenged

So you think that "mentally disadvantaged" is not an accurate summany of  "out of their minds in denial.", "you have to do mental gymnastics to ignore it" and "people don't think that deeply about things" Fair enough, withdrawn.

I'd love to discuss the detail of each of the assertions that Indoctrination "Theory" relies on as mostly they are examples of comfirmation bias and/or begging the question, but this isn't the thread for it.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 30 avril 2012 - 04:18 .