230 réponses à ce sujet

[OdanUrr]

dreman9999 wrote...

Before we start and saying what is what....Can you prove what happen at the cataylyst Scene really happened?  Also, all indevisuals are differnent enities...Reaper fit the bill of an entaty any way be that they are need less machines. The  star child, if take at fact value, still is in charge of the reapers...He is key to their planning...And last time I checked, they have a historyof great deseption...Also, we have no proof the shar child is telling the truth any way.

No more than I can prove that it didn't.

True, but if he were going to lie to Shepard, why even bother "lifting" him and not just letting him die?

[dreman9999]

OdanUrr wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You do know that base on the lore, indoctionation has no proof of it till after the person is indoctrinated...Right?

That was the point I was trying to make.

OK cool! So you agree that it's posiible then! Awesome!

Impossible is nothing, that's my motto.

But that your ignoring the year of contact with reaper tech Shepard has been in contact with since ME1. 3 years of on and off contact. The chance of indoctriantion exsist. It's not imposible.

[Makrys]

I'm getting the feeling some of the people here did not read my post in its entirety.

[OdanUrr]

dreman9999 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

He refers to himself and the reaper as "we" so that's good enough for me.

Doesn't Saren ask Shepard to "join us" in ME1? Somehow, I don't think he's on a par with the Reapers.

That just means Saren feels he is part of the reapers group. Which is what  Balance5050 is saying about the star child.

I'm saying the same thing. The Catalyst shares a connection with the Reapers, that's why he says "us." That doesn't mean he has to behave as per Reaper standards or that he has the same "abilities" a Reaper does.

[Makrys]

dreman9999 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

I thought there was a massive IT thread already? What's the difference between this one and that one?

We can debate in this one and the other isjust  people buncing ideas.

I actually knew you would be the one to ask this, Odan, and I was waiting for that to happen before I commented.

This thread was began because I wanted a discussion about why the IT is or is not fascinating. It wasn't meant to turn into a debate whether its true or not necessarily, but Dreman was fairly right. There is more of a debate taking place here than there is in the official IT thread. And I'm fine with that, as long as things stay civil and a healthy discussion takes place. Which seems to be happening now... for the most part. So far I've only seen one troll in the midst of things lately . *squints eyes*

Modifié par Makrys, 02 mai 2012 - 05:15 .

[DiebytheSword]

OdanUrr wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

That's perfectly plausible, and adds a fourth possible answer to our conundrum.  It still does not dismiss out of hand the other three exlanations that have been offered.

My problem with this idea, is that it requires a new altogether unkown thing to explain the form the Catalyst/GUARDIAN takes.  The Reapers just refelect what you're deepest disturbing thing is?  I think it is far more plausible that they have retrieved a specific memory for maximum effect.  It fits with the established lore, and requires far less Deus Ex Machina to explain.

The Catalyst and the Reapers are different entities. If we hardly know that much about the Reapers, and we spent three games learning about them, then we can't expect to know much about the Catalyst, having been introduced in the last ten minutes of the game. Just because he says he controls the Reapers it doesn't mean he has the same abilities or that he acts in a similar manner.

I'll start off by saying I agree with the underlined.  The Catalyst is either wholly a figment of Shepard's imagination or the guiding intelligence of the Reapers, but I don't think he's a Reaper himself per se, though I do not write off the possibility that he is.

The italicised part I disagree with.  While he may be the controller, and possibly the creator of the Reapers, it is illogical to think that they do not share technology, and pure speculation to beileve that he has not stagnated during his long dormant periods.  Is it possible that his tech is wildly different?  Yes, but also highly unlikely.

As for the rest of what you've been saying, I agree, the only thing certain is uncertainty and their is nothing that is impossible.

[dreman9999]

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Before we start and saying what is what....Can you prove what happen at the cataylyst Scene really happened?  Also, all indevisuals are differnent enities...Reaper fit the bill of an entaty any way be that they are need less machines. The  star child, if take at fact value, still is in charge of the reapers...He is key to their planning...And last time I checked, they have a historyof great deseption...Also, we have no proof the shar child is telling the truth any way.

No more than I can prove that it didn't.

True, but if he were going to lie to Shepard, why even bother "lifting" him and not just letting him die?

1. This is a race of AI's with a history of great deception.....I thinkthat's proof enough for me to speculate if the star child is telling the truth.
2. How do we even know the star child is tryin gto help him? For all we know, it his way to trick Shepard to kill him self....
Convincing Shep to grap a live wire.
Convincing Shep to run off an edge to a firy beam
Convince shep to blow himself up.
....This is helping?
3. We also don't know that this is realyy happening. And with the reaper being able to manipulate dreams...
.http://www.youtube.c...JFRvDUp4#t=690s

The reseachers on project rho in Arrival also taked about strange dreams  when they were being indoctrinated.

http://www.youtube.c...tYTITiTw#t=249s 

.....It's smart to have some conserns of this.

[Makrys]

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

He refers to himself and the reaper as "we" so that's good enough for me.

Doesn't Saren ask Shepard to "join us" in ME1? Somehow, I don't think he's on a par with the Reapers.

That just means Saren feels he is part of the reapers group. Which is what  Balance5050 is saying about the star child.

I'm saying the same thing. The Catalyst shares a connection with the Reapers, that's why he says "us." That doesn't mean he has to behave as per Reaper standards or that he has the same "abilities" a Reaper does.

Thank you for providing a solid argument against the IT, and not just spouting hate because you don't like it. Healthy discussion is healthy. Thanks 

Ps. *whispers* Although I do believe you're wrong. 

Modifié par Makrys, 02 mai 2012 - 05:18 .

[dreman9999]

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

He refers to himself and the reaper as "we" so that's good enough for me.

Doesn't Saren ask Shepard to "join us" in ME1? Somehow, I don't think he's on a par with the Reapers.

That just means Saren feels he is part of the reapers group. Which is what  Balance5050 is saying about the star child.

I'm saying the same thing. The Catalyst shares a connection with the Reapers, that's why he says "us." That doesn't mean he has to behave as per Reaper standards or that he has the same "abilities" a Reaper does.

 Yes it does. That is what it means. He is ok with the reaper havesting advance life regardless if that life wants it or not, He is ok with the reaper using indoctriantion...Hell, he sayS he controls them, meaning that it was his plan in the begining. He is one of them and the one in charge. He's not even trying to stop them. 

Modifié par dreman9999, 02 mai 2012 - 05:21 .

[DiebytheSword]

Makrys wrote...

This thread was began because I wanted a discussion about why the IT is or is not fascinating. It wasn't meant to turn into a debate whether its true or not necessarily, but Dreman was fairly right. There is more of a debate taking place here than there is in the official IT thread. And I'm fine with that, as long as things stay civil and a healthy discussion takes place. Which seems to be happening now... for the most part. So far I've only seen one troll in the midst of things lately . *squints eyes*

In case I have not said it prior to this, I find IT theory fascinating because I believe it has a large chunk of the truth down, but is not completely correct.  I look forward to the EC in the hopes that it will address the not only the straigh up inconsistancies in the end (Joker's Wild Ride) and that it might do more with the war assets I gathered, but that it might shed light on the uncertainties of the final moments of gameplay in ME3.  IT has just enough evidence to plant resonable doubt and cause me pause.  It is something to think about in regards to the end, and thus interesting.

[OdanUrr]

Makrys wrote...

Thank you for providing a solid argument against the IT, and not just spouting hate because you don't like it. Healthy discussion is healthy. Thanks 

Ps. *whispers* Although I do believe you're wrong. 

No problem, although I wasn't arguing against IT here, I'm just saying that the Catalyst is an unknown quantity. Could he be an illusion? Sure. Could he be lying? Why not? Personally, I think he's real and he's stretching the truth a bit, but for a different reason entirely. I mean, just because someone might be lying about something doesn't make him an illusion, right? It just means he has an agenda...

[DiebytheSword]

OdanUrr wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Thank you for providing a solid argument against the IT, and not just spouting hate because you don't like it. Healthy discussion is healthy. Thanks 

Ps. *whispers* Although I do believe you're wrong. 

No problem, although I wasn't arguing against IT here, I'm just saying that the Catalyst is an unknown quantity. Could he be an illusion? Sure. Could he be lying? Why not? Personally, I think he's real and he's stretching the truth a bit, but for a different reason entirely. I mean, just because someone might be lying about something doesn't make him an illusion, right? It just means he has an agenda...

Id be curious to hear your thoughts on what you believed happened in the end.  What is this agenda?  What truths do you think he's stretching?

[Makrys]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Makrys wrote...

This thread was began because I wanted a discussion about why the IT is or is not fascinating. It wasn't meant to turn into a debate whether its true or not necessarily, but Dreman was fairly right. There is more of a debate taking place here than there is in the official IT thread. And I'm fine with that, as long as things stay civil and a healthy discussion takes place. Which seems to be happening now... for the most part. So far I've only seen one troll in the midst of things lately . *squints eyes*

In case I have not said it prior to this, I find IT theory fascinating because I believe it has a large chunk of the truth down, but is not completely correct.  I look forward to the EC in the hopes that it will address the not only the straigh up inconsistancies in the end (Joker's Wild Ride) and that it might do more with the war assets I gathered, but that it might shed light on the uncertainties of the final moments of gameplay in ME3.  IT has just enough evidence to plant resonable doubt and cause me pause.  It is something to think about in regards to the end, and thus interesting.

I think that was the exact purpose: speculation. Bioware never wanted the hints and clues throughout the game to directly be PROOF of the IT. Then there would be no mystery, no surpise when the EC is revealed. If everyone believed in the IT, the effect it would have on people when the EC was released would be much less. People would be expecting it. But as of now, many people still do not believe it, and a lot of us that do are still skeptical. So Bioware is doing a brilliant job of building anticipation and not letting us really find out what they're up to. 

I think the clues throughout the game are nothing more: clues. This is why the anti-IT people are constantly saying, "Show me the facts or I won't believe it!". Well, the 'fact' is there aren't any hard facts per se. All of it is speculation, strong arguments and believable conjectures, but still just speculation. So anyone looking for proof or a die hard 'yes the IT is real' will not find it. Not until the IT is confirmed anyway. Bioware did not intend for us to find the one and only answer before they revealed it. They instead only planted enough hints and clues as to get us on the right track of mind into thinking... 'something is not right with this'. I think the whole ending of the game was simply a test of will by Bioware on the player, to see if we could detect that something was wrong... that WE were being indoctrinated. And so the whole point of the end as we have it, is to recognize things don't add up, and to choose to destroy the Reapers (Shepard's goal all along). 

I think it would be the best mind game a developer has ever played on their consumer, and damn did it take balls to do it if its true. Bioware risked a lot if the IT is true. However, if it is true, then we have one amazing TRUE ending coming our way, I have no doubt! :happy:

Modifié par Makrys, 02 mai 2012 - 05:33 .

[OdanUrr]

dreman9999 wrote...

He's not even trying to stop them. 

The moment he gives Shepard a choice he's trying to stop them.

[U7tra]

Makrys wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Makrys wrote...

This thread was began because I wanted a discussion about why the IT is or is not fascinating. It wasn't meant to turn into a debate whether its true or not necessarily, but Dreman was fairly right. There is more of a debate taking place here than there is in the official IT thread. And I'm fine with that, as long as things stay civil and a healthy discussion takes place. Which seems to be happening now... for the most part. So far I've only seen one troll in the midst of things lately . *squints eyes*

In case I have not said it prior to this, I find IT theory fascinating because I believe it has a large chunk of the truth down, but is not completely correct.  I look forward to the EC in the hopes that it will address the not only the straigh up inconsistancies in the end (Joker's Wild Ride) and that it might do more with the war assets I gathered, but that it might shed light on the uncertainties of the final moments of gameplay in ME3.  IT has just enough evidence to plant resonable doubt and cause me pause.  It is something to think about in regards to the end, and thus interesting.

I think that was the exact purpose: speculation. Bioware never wanted the hints and clues throughout the game to directly be PROOF of the IT. Then there would be no mystery, no surpise when the EC is revealed. If everyone believed in the IT, the effect it would have on people when the EC was released would be much less. People would be expecting it. But as of now, many people still do not believe it, and a lot of us that do are still skeptical. So Bioware is doing a brilliant job of building anticipation and not letting us really find out what they're up to. 

I think the clues throughout the game are nothing more: clues. This is why the anti-IT people are constantly saying, "Show me the facts or I won't believe it!". Well, the 'fact' is there aren't any hard facts per se. All of it is speculation, strong arguments and believable conjectures, but still just speculation. So anyone looking for proof or a die hard 'yes the IT is real' will not find it. Not until the IT is confirmed anyway. Bioware did not intend for us to find the one and only answer before they revealed it. They instead only planted enough hints and clues as to get us on the right track of mind into thinking... 'something is not right with this'. I think the whole ending of the game was simply a test of will by Bioware on the player, to see if we could detect that something was wrong... that WE were being indoctrinated. And so the whole point of the end as we have it, is to recognize things don't add up, and to choose to destroy the Reapers (Shepard's goal all along). 

I think it would be the best mind game a developer has ever played on their consumer, and damn did it take balls to do it if its true. Bioware risked a lot if the IT is true. However, if it is true, then we have one amazing TRUE ending coming our way, I have no doubt! :happy:

I really agreed with this for the first few weeks... since it's become more apparent how unprepared BW was for the backlash and how long it was gonna take them to put together the EC I've gotten a little more skeptical.

I could be wrong - I just think if they were doing what you said (and I so hope they are) they'd have sprung the surprise sooner.

Edit: more better grammars.

Modifié par U7tra, 02 mai 2012 - 05:37 .

[dreman9999]

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

He's not even trying to stop them. 

The moment he gives Shepard a choice he's trying to stop them.

Do you even know what the choice are or mean? 
Control let's Shepard control the reapers but ,as stated form the star child, Eventhing that Shepard is will die.....Is that really control? You'll control them but become a diffent person...What guarentees Shepard will stop the cycle.

Synthesis is just like what the reaper were doing before. It doesn't stop them but if taken at face value does exacly what they want before but in a different way.

Destory is the only option that stops them but the star child gives the most negative to it.

Added. none of the choices solves the problem the star child brings up anyway.
To say the star child is trying to stop the reapers...You need to point out how these choices stop the reapers ultamently.

Modifié par dreman9999, 02 mai 2012 - 05:46 .

[DiebytheSword]

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

He's not even trying to stop them. 

The moment he gives Shepard a choice he's trying to stop them.

This is also speculation, the Catalyst may have had no choice but to end the cycle once the Crucible has docked, but may have a choice in how that end plays out.  Hence why choice is offered to Shepard, not out of a want or need to stop them, but a vested interest in how they are stopped.

[Iconoclaste]

dreman9999 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

He's not even trying to stop them. 

The moment he gives Shepard a choice he's trying to stop them.

Do you even know what the choice are or mean? (this attitude...)
Control let's Shepard control the reapers but ,as stated form the star child, Eventhing that Shepard ids will die.....It hat really control? You'll control them but be a diffent person...What guarentee Shepard will stop the cycle.
(Maybe he's lying? You said that yourslef, remember?) - The cutscenes show the Reapers moving away. Maybe we should have been shown the Reapers going out of the Galaxy and remaining there for a few thousand years? Long cutscene...
Synthesis is just like what the reaper were doing before. It doesn't stop them but if taken at face value does exacly what they want before but in a different way.
(This one is a bit contradictory : same thing, but different. They are not turned into husks, from what we are shown...)
Destory is the only option that stops them but the star child gives the most negatice to it.
(All three choices seemed to stop them. Watch the cutscenes.)
Added. No of the choices solves the problem the star child brings up anyway.
To say the star child is trying to stop the reapers...You need to point out how these choices stop the reapers ultamently.
lol

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 02 mai 2012 - 05:54 .

[Makrys]

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

He's not even trying to stop them. 

The moment he gives Shepard a choice he's trying to stop them.

Did you read the second half of my original post?

[Iconoclaste]

Makrys wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

He's not even trying to stop them. 

The moment he gives Shepard a choice he's trying to stop them.

Did you read the second half of my original post?

There seems to be as many versions of IT as there are supporters. Not easy to grasp, isn't it? Maybe that doesn't make for a very serious approach, given that I see many supporters trying to force their tiny bits of individual evidences  collected from Youtube and others through the skulls of people that only seek some rational explanation. Lots of speculation does not amount to an ounce of fact.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 02 mai 2012 - 05:53 .

[OdanUrr]

DiebytheSword wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

He's not even trying to stop them. 

The moment he gives Shepard a choice he's trying to stop them.

This is also speculation, the Catalyst may have had no choice but to end the cycle once the Crucible has docked, but may have a choice in how that end plays out.  Hence why choice is offered to Shepard, not out of a want or need to stop them, but a vested interest in how they are stopped.

Right you are.

Evil laugh follows.

[DiebytheSword]

OdanUrr wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

He's not even trying to stop them. 

The moment he gives Shepard a choice he's trying to stop them.

This is also speculation, the Catalyst may have had no choice but to end the cycle once the Crucible has docked, but may have a choice in how that end plays out.  Hence why choice is offered to Shepard, not out of a want or need to stop them, but a vested interest in how they are stopped.

Right you are.

Evil laugh follows.

Well, we disagree on why he has a vested interest, but your theory is very interesting in and of itself non-the-less.

I'm more of the opinion that its less him giving Shepard a choice and more him attempting to pervert the outcome to his own ends.

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

He's not even trying to stop them. 

The moment he gives Shepard a choice he's trying to stop them.

Do you even know what the choice are or mean? (this attitude...)
Control let's Shepard control the reapers but ,as stated form the star child, Eventhing that Shepard ids will die.....It hat really control? You'll control them but be a diffent person...What guarentee Shepard will stop the cycle.
(Maybe he's lying? You said that yourslef, remember?) - The cutscenes show the Reapers moving away. Maybe we should have been shown the Reapers going out of the Galaxy and remaining there for a few thousand years? Long cutscene...
Synthesis is just like what the reaper were doing before. It doesn't stop them but if taken at face value does exacly what they want before but in a different way.
(This one is a bit contradictory : same thing, but different. They are not turned into husks, from what we are shown...)
Destory is the only option that stops them but the star child gives the most negatice to it.
(All three choices seemed to stop them. Watch the cutscenes.)
Added. No of the choices solves the problem the star child brings up anyway.
To say the star child is trying to stop the reapers...You need to point out how these choices stop the reapers ultamently.
lol

1. Two way sword on that....He could be lieing about being able to control the reapers...Also, we still don't know the ending really happened.
2.But it still is not stopping the repaer ...Which is my point. Also, the reaper don't want to turn organics to husk...The want to urn organics to Reapers.

3. No, none of them do. We don't have proof tha the ending really happen so using the ending as proof is invalid till EC comes out.

And you still haven pointed out how the choices stops the reapers.

[DiebytheSword]

dreman9999 wrote...

Also, the reaper don't want to turn organics to husk...The want to urn organics to Reapers.

This is factually incorrect, they want to do both, only some humans will end up as Reapers, the rest will be processed as shock troops or slaughtered outright.

[dreman9999]

DiebytheSword wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Also, the reaper don't want to turn organics to husk...The want to urn organics to Reapers.

This is factually incorrect, they want to do both, only some humans will end up as Reapers, the rest will be processed as shock troops or slaughtered outright.

That's for the war. Once the wAr is over, they will take what t then need to make reapers and leave the rest to die off using some to see the progess of the next cycle like the collectorswere used for. The reapers general goal is to forcly advance  the current advance space worthy  life to reapers. This was pointed out in ME2.

Modifié par dreman9999, 02 mai 2012 - 06:22 .