146 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyonan]

DSxCallOfBooty- wrote...

Wraith needs a patch pretty badly too. I would argue it's one of the worst shotguns in-game because of it's various faults. Maybe it should have a weight of [1.25-0.7] while the Eviscerator is at [1.5-0.9]? Maybe giving the Wraith some more spare ammo would help too.

Not sure if I'd say the Claymore is more effective. Way too heavy to see any use with most of my characters. I'd rather run a Scimitar or GPS any day of the week.

The Claymore happens to be one of the 2.5-2 weight weapons that is more than worth its' weight. A single shot from a Claymore X hits as hard as over 4 and a half shots from a Scimitar X.

However, even though I prefer the Claymore to the GPS, I would still call the GPS the best gun in the game right now.

[ReflectedRed]

Cyonan wrote...

ReflectedRed wrote...

You are right, a bit more damage but the difference isn't that big (72 more damage per shot?) + the fact that it's now "balanced" because Wraith is heavier to wield, and Eviscerator X has more max ammo and bigger clip size (not that this matters since both guns are broken since they deal more damage if you reload trick right after 1st shot without even using rest of the clip). But Claymore, GPS and Graal are superior, correct.

Well I do think that the Wraith needs a buff, though I wouldn't be saying that an Eviscerator out classes it just yet.

Though any gold shotgun certainly does.

 

The weight is doubled when comparing Wraith I to Eviscerator X, Wraith is only one Predaror X shot "stronger". Eviscerator outclasses Wraith so bad when considering how hard Wraith is to level up to max.

Modifié par ReflectedRed, 25 avril 2012 - 05:47 .

[ReflectedRed]

^ quote fail

[Iodine]

DSxCallOfBooty- wrote...

Iodine wrote...

DSxCallOfBooty- wrote...

Yeah.  I'd say Scimitar > Disciple > Eviscerator > Katana now.  I've heard the Disciple has a >95% chance to apply the stun effect, but that never seems to happen for me.  One out of every five shots seems to have the effect, or maybe I'm just not noticing it.

It's not really the chance to stun that's special on the Disciple, it's that every single one of its hitreactions ignores shields/barriers, and none of the reactions have a maximum range (lots of weapons only have short to medium max ranges on reactions, especially shotguns).

Edit: And looking at the Disciple now in c.bin, I've realized that either there's a more complicated hitreaction/stagger system than just heavy/medium/light, short/medium/long range, ignore shields vs. don't ignore shields and ReactionChance=0.5-1.0. Unless both of us are remembering wrong, and Disciple does in fact have a heavy stagger reaction on every single hit.

I believe that.  While I seem to have poor luck with the stun effect (I blame my 156kb connection for that one) I have been able to stun at very, very long ranges.  I, unfortunately, don't play on PC so I can't really confirm much of what you've said, but from my experience with PC gaming with other games, seems to make sense.  I suppose the big question is that while it would appear that the Disciple should stun on every hit, why doesn't it?  Is it always connection issues, are there problems with the projectiles, are multiple pellets contacting required, etc...

Ok, I was going nuts trying to figure it out, since there didn't seem to be a logical connection between c.bin and the gameplay, but I figured that part out at least. In addition to there either being a cooldown for normal/stagger/knockback reactions OR else they're like Overload (without Neural Shock) where if you "clip" the end of the last casting's effect it won't stun them again, there is one key thing I was forgetting.

In the difficulty level settings, each enemy has all its unique stats (MaxHealth/Armor/Barriers/Shields, PowerThreshold_Normal/_Stagger/_Knockback, GrenadeFrequency, MeleeFrequency, etc.). One of the stats each enemy has is a HitReactionChanceMultiplier. For example, Marauder on Bronze has 0.85f HitReactionChanceMultiplier, but on Gold it has 0.6f. So even with Disciple's 1.0 (100%) chance of a heavy (knockback) reaction, it is first multiplied by the HitReactionChanceMultiplier. So that 100% on Bronze becomes 85%, or 60% on Gold.

Of course, I don't think I've seen anyone bother fully putting all the pieces together to figure out all the relations between hitreactions/hitreaction chance, damage/force, thresholds, hitreactionmultiplier, etc. so this is likely just the tip of the iceberg or an incomplete picture. I haven't puzzled out the order it runs through the possible HitReactions in either (Heavy->Medium->Light? The opposite? The order they're listed in in bioweapon.ini?). But that at least explains why the 100% chance Knockback reaction doesn't happen on every single hit with the Disciple, and I can rest easy without the unexplained phenomenon gnawing at my mind. :V

tl;dr - Disciple is still pretty awesome. Now back to your regularly scheduled on-topic discussions.

Modifié par Iodine, 25 avril 2012 - 05:54 .

[D Amiri]

The Katana is still better than the Evi. The increased damage does not save you any shots. Both gun require 4 shots to kill a Centaurion on gold. but the Katana has a faster rate of fire and a larger clip so those 4 shot don't require a reload. The Scim was better than both and still is because it require 6 shot but that's faster than 4 shots from the Katana.

The Evi won't be better than the Scim/Katana until it can kill any shielded enemy in one clip. The only reason to use the Evi is if you're a class that occasionally fires your gun (Novaguard, KV) so that more damage is always better.

For example on my Drellguard, between charges (during cooldown) I can fire 2 shots with the Evi 1900 damage, 3 for 2200 with the Katana, and/or 5 for 2600 for the scim. The problem with the Evi is that it need a large damage buff to make up for it's ROF and clip size.

[Cyonan]

ReflectedRed wrote...
The weight is doubled when comparing Wraith I to Eviscerator X, Wraith is only one Predaror X shot "stronger". Eviscerator outclasses Wraith so bad when considering how hard Wraith is to level up to max.

For most classes that are actually going to use a shotgun, they aren't going to care a ton about the weight except  for maybe the Vanguards. Any of the actual casters are just going to use their beloved Carnifex anyway. The weight is still something to be noted, but it's not something that suddenly makes the Eviscerator out classing the Wraith. I would say they're more comparable rather than either out classing one, which should not happen since one is an ultra-rare.

Though they're both still terrible shotguns.

Modifié par Cyonan, 25 avril 2012 - 05:48 .

[Lycidas]

DSxCallOfBooty- wrote...

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

Well...lets think, isn't there a REASON certain weapons are common, silver, gold and onyx? Onyx weapons at level x should ALWAYS outclass a common at the same level...but thats just how i see it...

Sigh... please read the previous posts explaining why there should be balance between the weapons, without factoring in the rarities of the weapons. In games like MMOs, it makes sense for players who've been playing longer to have significantly better equipment, but in a game like ME3, it's important for weapon balance to be preserved across all of the weapons, regardless of their rarity.
...

Why? Because you say so?
IMHO there is absolutely no reason why rarer weapons should not be better in ME3. What is the point of rare weapons if they perform the same with a slightly different flavor? Why would anyone play the game for weeks and months and buy packs if you do just fine with the starter weapons.

Modifié par Lycidas, 25 avril 2012 - 05:50 .

[Drummernate]

Everything in this patch was "Good."

[Yajuu Omoi]

DSxCallOfBooty- wrote...

maxtofunator wrote...

DSxCallOfBooty- wrote...

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

Well...lets think, isn't there a REASON certain weapons are common, silver, gold and onyx? Onyx weapons at level x should ALWAYS outclass a common at the same level...but thats just how i see it...

Sigh... please read the previous posts explaining why there should be balance between the weapons, without factoring in the rarities of the weapons.  In games like MMOs, it makes sense for players who've been playing longer to have significantly better equipment, but in a game like ME3, it's important for weapon balance to be preserved across all of the weapons, regardless of their rarity.

FYI, they usually aren't called Onyx weapons.  Surprisingly, I haven't seen them called that on the forums since I joined.  Most people call them N7 weapons, but then get them confused with the promotional N7 weapons.

I thought the consensus was either black card or ultrarare?

And trust me, I agree there should be balance, but there should also be advantages/disadvantages to each weapon.
Like the claymore working GREAT on armor but having the disciple better at killing shielded enemies and working better on the asari/drell/human vanguard for a high cdr

Ultra-rare is what a lot of people call them, so they aren't confused with the N7/promo weapons.

I think that the balance should lean towards each weapon having advantages and disadvantages too, but rarity should not be a factor in this.

I honestly agree, but at the same time...i had the Katana X in the first week...due to how common it was, if it was balanced to the Claymore X? what would be the point in wanting any other shotgun once you have one maxxed? Thats all I'm sayin.
The rarities should have SOMETHING to do with the balence, like the Katana should just be a Basic shotgun, fairly level across the field, with the Eviscerator having compairible stats, but the range being boosted. Or like stated above, Deciple having an advantage against Shields/Barriers, and Wraith having even better accuracy at range.

Know what i'm getting at? More rare means more desirable abilities of weapons.

EDIT: BTW, i called it Onyx...cuz i'm used to the bronze, silver gold, onyx. of every other games i've played that goes "higher" than gold with a rating...and i got sick of people getting confused when i said the black widow was an N7 rare weapon...they'd freak out saying that its a normal weapon and not a promo...i know it isn't a promo...never said it was T.T
...thats all, 

Modifié par Yajuu Omoi, 25 avril 2012 - 06:08 .

[Yajuu Omoi]

Lycidas wrote...

DSxCallOfBooty- wrote...

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

Well...lets think, isn't there a REASON certain weapons are common, silver, gold and onyx? Onyx weapons at level x should ALWAYS outclass a common at the same level...but thats just how i see it...

Sigh... please read the previous posts explaining why there should be balance between the weapons, without factoring in the rarities of the weapons. In games like MMOs, it makes sense for players who've been playing longer to have significantly better equipment, but in a game like ME3, it's important for weapon balance to be preserved across all of the weapons, regardless of their rarity.
...

Why? Because you say so?
IMHO there is absolutely no reason why rarer weapons should not be better in ME3. What is the point of rare weapons if they perform the same with a slightly different flavor? Why would anyone play the game for weeks and months and buy packs if you do just fine with the starter weapons.

^ Exactly

[ReflectedRed]

Cyonan wrote...

ReflectedRed wrote...
The weight is doubled when comparing Wraith I to Eviscerator X, Wraith is only one Predaror X shot "stronger". Eviscerator outclasses Wraith so bad when considering how hard Wraith is to level up to max.

For most classes that are actually going to use a shotgun, they aren't going to care a ton about the weight except  for maybe the Vanguards. Any of the actual casters are just going to use their beloved Carnifex anyway. The weight is still something to be noted, but it's not something that suddenly makes the Eviscerator out classing the Wraith. I would say they're more comparable rather than either out classing one, which should not happen since one is an ultra-rare.

Though they're both still terrible shotguns.

I can't make you change your opinion eh? We both have our ways to think I guess. Both guns are terrible shoutguns like you said tho, so true.

[Yajuu Omoi]

Cyonan wrote...

ReflectedRed wrote...
The weight is doubled when comparing Wraith I to Eviscerator X, Wraith is only one Predaror X shot "stronger". Eviscerator outclasses Wraith so bad when considering how hard Wraith is to level up to max.

For most classes that are actually going to use a shotgun, they aren't going to care a ton about the weight except  for maybe the Vanguards. Any of the actual casters are just going to use their beloved Carnifex anyway. The weight is still something to be noted, but it's not something that suddenly makes the Eviscerator out classing the Wraith. I would say they're more comparable rather than either out classing one, which should not happen since one is an ultra-rare.

Though they're both still terrible shotguns.

But weight DOES matter, Try using a Infil. Clock Shotty combo with a HEAVY shotty...doesn't work so easy...
And compare the Palidin to the Carnifex, Palidin has higher DPS, but also higher weight and less shots per clip, and also less total cap...seem fair? not so much, lot less ammo...and less shots per reload...but almost 1.75 times the weight?
or the Mantis, vs Widow. thats a nice comparison, Mantis X can match Widow I shot for shot, till you add cover or a guardian shield, Widow bein a gold rare can pierce armor, makes sense, its balanced...
Then once Widow is X, the gold rare come into play again, its power compared to the Mantis is superior again, but the weight knocks that on is rear end...unbalanced...personally

[Yajuu Omoi]

D Amiri wrote...

The Katana is still better than the Evi. The increased damage does not save you any shots. Both gun require 4 shots to kill a Centaurion on gold. but the Katana has a faster rate of fire and a larger clip so those 4 shot don't require a reload. The Scim was better than both and still is because it require 6 shot but that's faster than 4 shots from the Katana.

The Evi won't be better than the Scim/Katana until it can kill any shielded enemy in one clip. The only reason to use the Evi is if you're a class that occasionally fires your gun (Novaguard, KV) so that more damage is always better.

For example on my Drellguard, between charges (during cooldown) I can fire 2 shots with the Evi 1900 damage, 3 for 2200 with the Katana, and/or 5 for 2600 for the scim. The problem with the Evi is that it need a large damage buff to make up for it's ROF and clip size.

I think they tried to balance that with its accuracy at range...which i'd prefer on THAT shotty...cuz its not much use on a vanguard...but could be useful on a soldier class if buffed correctly...

[Cyonan]

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

But weight DOES matter, Try using a Infil. Clock Shotty combo with a HEAVY shotty...doesn't work so easy...
And compare the Palidin to the Carnifex, Palidin has higher DPS, but also higher weight and less shots per clip, and also less total cap...seem fair? not so much, lot less ammo...and less shots per reload...but almost 1.75 times the weight?
or the Mantis, vs Widow. thats a nice comparison, Mantis X can match Widow I shot for shot, till you add cover or a guardian shield, Widow bein a gold rare can pierce armor, makes sense, its balanced...
Then once Widow is X, the gold rare come into play again, its power compared to the Mantis is superior again, but the weight knocks that on is rear end...unbalanced...personally

I "main" a shotgun Infiltrator that uses the Claymore, it's the heaviest damn shotgun there is.

Tactical Cloak doesn't give a damn about your weapon weight when you don't spend a lot of time in it, I could get a 3 second cooldown even if I had -200% recharge if I fired immediately. The only thing it affects is my cooldown after capping, but as long as I stay in the positive, it's always going to be a decent cooldown.

it's not that weight doesn't matter, it's that it doesn't matter to a large degree to the weapon based classes that are going to be using the Wraith/Eviscerator. Anyone that cares about weight is using a Carnifex anyway, so that doesn't really matter.

Modifié par Cyonan, 25 avril 2012 - 06:06 .

[Iodine]

ReflectedRed wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

ReflectedRed wrote...
The weight is doubled when comparing Wraith I to Eviscerator X, Wraith is only one Predaror X shot "stronger". Eviscerator outclasses Wraith so bad when considering how hard Wraith is to level up to max.

For most classes that are actually going to use a shotgun, they aren't going to care a ton about the weight except  for maybe the Vanguards. Any of the actual casters are just going to use their beloved Carnifex anyway. The weight is still something to be noted, but it's not something that suddenly makes the Eviscerator out classing the Wraith. I would say they're more comparable rather than either out classing one, which should not happen since one is an ultra-rare.

Though they're both still terrible shotguns.

I can't make you change your opinion eh? We both have our ways to think I guess. Both guns are terrible shoutguns like you said tho, so true.

ME1 had a general progression through progressively stronger (I-VII / X) weapons while ME2 just gave you fairly random weapons in intervals in missions. Some people liked one way, some liked the other. Starting weapons stayed usable/viable/valuable throughout all of ME2 (not even counting Mattock/GPS/Locust ;P), allowing you to just choose whatever suited your playstyle or fill the protection-stripping role you needed. ME3 seems to be somewhat a blend of the two, just with a few "outliers" like Carnifex that puts later weapons to shame (largely due to game mechanics, not the weapon stats themselves) and throws the whole system seemingly out of whack.

While I don't think it's good to have a super major progression from terrible weapons to amazing weapons (especially since it just rewards the boring farmers more and makes farming even more appealing for every player), it is nice to have something to work toward - instead of (for example) having the Mattock DLC, with the Mattock being amazing on any character from the first mission through the end of the game. It's a decent middle ground right now (seems to be what they're going for) - there are weapons to work toward as a goal/reward, but they aren't going to turn you into a multiplayer god automatically if you happen to get lucky with a random unlock on your first pack. They just need to iron out the balance issues and mechanics, and it will at least be tolerable for both ME1 and ME2 system fans.

Modifié par Iodine, 25 avril 2012 - 06:09 .

[IonSilverbolt]

Yajuu Omoi wrote...



I think they tried to balance that with its accuracy at range...which i'd prefer on THAT shotty...cuz its not much use on a vanguard...but could be useful on a soldier class if buffed correctly...

This

Even before the buff, I found the Eviscerator to be an excellent shotgun with a concussion shot build. Concussion shot works in between shots which help make up for it's slower rate of fire. The longer range is very useful too. A headshot at mid-range will one hit kill a trooper on silver with the right mods.

[Yajuu Omoi]

Cyonan wrote...

I "main" a shotgun Infiltrator that uses the Claymore, it's the heaviest damn shotgun there is.

Tactical Cloak doesn't give a damn about your weapon weight when you don't spend a lot of time in it.

Wait wait wait...you're using an Infil...but not even using the cloak?!?!?
Then WHY are you using an Infil???
Seriously...i don't understant...the cloack MAKES the Infil what it is...otherwise...it'd be...well...NOT an infiltrator! lol

[Cyonan]

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

I "main" a shotgun Infiltrator that uses the Claymore, it's the heaviest damn shotgun there is.

Tactical Cloak doesn't give a damn about your weapon weight when you don't spend a lot of time in it.

Wait wait wait...you're using an Infil...but not even using the cloak?!?!?
Then WHY are you using an Infil???
Seriously...i don't understant...the cloack MAKES the Infil what it is...otherwise...it'd be...well...NOT an infiltrator! lol

I am saying I use Cloak.

I'm saying that my Cloak couldn't care less what my weapon's weight is at. If you Cloak and fire immediately you get a 3 second cooldown. It does not matter if you have +200% or -200%, you get a 3 second cooldown.

The only thing weight affects is how long I have to wait after capping something(which meant I spent the full duration in cloak), which as long as you're positive it will be at worst 6 seconds.

[GroverA125]

Apl_J wrote...

But the Katana is a Blue rarity weapon. It makes sense that its on the weaker scale, considering you can max in a few hours. The Eviscerator and Scimitar should be more effective. Same goes for all the other Blue weapons.

As is the mantis, and yet it outmatches most of the uncommon sniper rifles out there. Same with the Avenger, I can use that on gold for firepower better than a mattock. Look at the Eviscerator, it's damage was already pretty superior to the disciple, a rare weapon.

Just because its rare doesn't mean its powerful. It just means it's hard to get. It's hard to get insta-killed by a brute, but that doesn't make it more rewarding.

Still, some of the buffs were pretty nice, human and turian soldiers gained increases, the hurricane got its well-deserved drop in muzzle climb, and the incisor got a little more firepower. Yet I still think that they could do better with the incisor, instead of just increasing the damage, give it a massive headshot damage bonus as well as a little bit more firepower. It'd make it a much more rewarding weapon.
*End of Contribution*

[Yajuu Omoi]

Iodine wrote...

there are weapons to work toward as a goal/reward, but they aren't going to turn you into a multiplayer god automatically if you happen to get lucky with a random unlock on your first pack. They just need to iron out the balance issues and mechanics, and it will at least be tolerable for both ME1 and ME2 system fans.

Exactly, I simply think that the more rare the weapon, the more desirable the "extra" effects of said weapon should be, not godly good, but something to make the Preditor X and the Phalanx X Stand on equal ground...without having the same stats.
I think they did well with the Widow vs Mantis though. The damage it appropriate, and the widows armor piercing balances with the weight...till you get them both to level X...then the damamge is the same and a simple piercing mod make the Mantis X suddenly better than the Widow X... T.T

[Yajuu Omoi]

Cyonan wrote...

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

I "main" a shotgun Infiltrator that uses the Claymore, it's the heaviest damn shotgun there is.

Tactical Cloak doesn't give a damn about your weapon weight when you don't spend a lot of time in it.

Wait wait wait...you're using an Infil...but not even using the cloak?!?!?
Then WHY are you using an Infil???
Seriously...i don't understant...the cloack MAKES the Infil what it is...otherwise...it'd be...well...NOT an infiltrator! lol

I am saying I use Cloak.

I'm saying that my Cloak couldn't care less what my weapon's weight is at. If you Cloak and fire immediately you get a 3 second cooldown. It does not matter if you have +200% or -200%, you get a 3 second cooldown.

The only thing weight affects is how long I have to wait after capping something(which meant I spent the full duration in cloak), which as long as you're positive it will be at worst 6 seconds.

Uh, no.
Cooldown means how long you wait till you a can re-activate a power. try using your SAME spec'd character with a +200% cooldown, you'll notice you can go in and out of cover a LOT faster.
Thats the point of cooldown...cooling down after using a power...waiting to re-activate it...

[lordshenlong]

concussive shot buff! oh ho ho this is not a good time to be the enemy!

/me grabs his gps and heads to war

[Cyonan]

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

Uh, no.
Cooldown means how long you wait till you a can re-activate a power. try using your SAME spec'd character with a +200% cooldown, you'll notice you can go in and out of cover a LOT faster.
Thats the point of cooldown...cooling down after using a power...waiting to re-activate it...

Cooldowns that have a duration get a shorter cooldown if you cancel it early, in this case I am doing so by firing.

Seriously, go put -200% weight on an infiltrator, cloak and immediately fire, you don't even need to wait for your character to turn invisible, just fire. You'll get a 3 second cooldown rather than the 22 or so that the skill tree says.

[ReflectedRed]

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

I "main" a shotgun Infiltrator that uses the Claymore, it's the heaviest damn shotgun there is.

Tactical Cloak doesn't give a damn about your weapon weight when you don't spend a lot of time in it.

Wait wait wait...you're using an Infil...but not even using the cloak?!?!?
Then WHY are you using an Infil???
Seriously...i don't understant...the cloack MAKES the Infil what it is...otherwise...it'd be...well...NOT an infiltrator! lol

I am saying I use Cloak.

I'm saying that my Cloak couldn't care less what my weapon's weight is at. If you Cloak and fire immediately you get a 3 second cooldown. It does not matter if you have +200% or -200%, you get a 3 second cooldown.

The only thing weight affects is how long I have to wait after capping something(which meant I spent the full duration in cloak), which as long as you're positive it will be at worst 6 seconds.

Uh, no.
Cooldown means how long you wait till you a can re-activate a power. try using your SAME spec'd character with a +200% cooldown, you'll notice you can go in and out of cover a LOT faster.
Thats the point of cooldown...cooling down after using a power...waiting to re-activate it...

Not sure if serious..
Im also claymore infiltrator and I can confirm what Cyonan said. You should do some research.

[Stardusk]

I don't have the Hurricane just the awful crusader but if I ever get it I think I will like, in SP was my favourite SMG.