444 réponses à ce sujet

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

Theres a big difference between choosing to do nothing about, and not being able to do anything about it. Most of the concentration camps were located in Eastern Europe there wasn't anything Allied forces could do in the short term . 

Please read the article. This was written by the secretary in January of 1944. What he's talking about is not just about the death camps, although knowledge of the death camps was already established long before this  time. What he's talking about is missed opportunities the government had to rescue Jewish refugees from the clutches of the N*zis. These efforts were blocked by presumably anti-semitic members of the administration. Please read. It's a historical document, not some recent political machination.

I'd imagine the other members of FDR's cabinet would probably disagree with the secretary of the treasury's statements.

Letter only shows that one member of the cabinet thought the administration was intentionally moving to slowly. 

Modifié par Irishfafnir, 28 avril 2012 - 09:54 .

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

I'd imagine the other members of FDR's cabinet would probably disagree with the secretary of the treasury's statements.

Letter only shows that one member of the cabinet thought the administration was intentionally moving to slowly. 

There were more members, of course, but this is just the letter personally from the Secretary of the Treasury. He was the highest ranking Jewish member of the administration, so his opinion had significant weight. If you want to research this, I'd encourage you. You have the Jewish Congress and Jewish members and Jewish sympathizers working for the administration, including for the Secretary of State, that saw all of this happening and reported it and this is how Morgenthau knew about it.

Anyway, I only brought this up as a point. If you see something something evil happening, and choose to do nothing, even though you could, then you are acquiescing. If you see something evil happening, and you prevent any attempt to stop it, or defend the people performing the action, then you are guilty of performing that act, even though you didn't actually commit the act. It's called aiding and abetting.

Modifié par tractrpl, 28 avril 2012 - 10:05 .

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Actually, it's more than just missed opportunities, he's talking about how there were opportunities to rescue Jews, and certain members of the government actively did whatever they could to sabotage any rescue attempts.

Edit: this is off-topic. The point is that Morgenthau saw people had the opportunity to rescue people from death. Those people either chose not to help them or actively prevented any attempted rescue. In his opinion, that's the same as actually killing the person yourself. My point is tied to his remark. If you witness someone do or say something morally wrong, you should do whatever you can to correct it.

Politics is almost never that simple.  Especially international politics. 

Modifié par Irishfafnir, 28 avril 2012 - 10:06 .

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Actually, it's more than just missed opportunities, he's talking about how there were opportunities to rescue Jews, and certain members of the government actively did whatever they could to sabotage any rescue attempts.

Edit: this is off-topic. The point is that Morgenthau saw people had the opportunity to rescue people from death. Those people either chose not to help them or actively prevented any attempted rescue. In his opinion, that's the same as actually killing the person yourself. My point is tied to his remark. If you witness someone do or say something morally wrong, you should do whatever you can to correct it.

Politics is almost never that simple.  Especially international politics. 

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Modifié par tractrpl, 28 avril 2012 - 10:07 .

[tractrpl]

Always speak out if you can. Unless there's a gun to your head and speaking out will accomplish nothing but your death, then speak out. But as soon as you escape it is your duty to report these actions to the world as soon as you're clear and safe, understood?

Modifié par tractrpl, 28 avril 2012 - 10:09 .

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

I'd imagine the other members of FDR's cabinet would probably disagree with the secretary of the treasury's statements.

Letter only shows that one member of the cabinet thought the administration was intentionally moving to slowly. 

There were more members, of course, but this is just the letter personally from the Secretary of the Treasury. He was the highest ranking Jewish member of the administration, so his opinion had significant weight. If you want to research this, I'd encourage you. You have the Jewish Congress and Jewish members and Jewish sympathizers working for the administration, including for the Secretary of State, that saw all of this happening and reported it and this is how Morgenthau knew about it.

Anyway, I only brought this up as a point. If you see something something evil happening, and choose to do nothing, even though you could, then you are acquiescing. If you see something evil happening, and you prevent any attempt to stop it, or defend the people performing the action, then you are guilty of performing that act, even though you didn't actually commit the act. It's called aiding and abetting.

Everyone has a political agenda, this letter doesn't prove that the FDR administration was not helping jews rather that Morgenthau wanted them to do more. I'm not saying that they were doing all they could do, but to claim that one letter from one member of the cabinet is absolute fact is silly.

I can show a speech from Martin Van Buren accusing Henry Clay of attempting to involve the UNited States in future wars with latin America in 1826. It doesn't mean Henry Clay was actually trying to get the US involved in future wars, rather that Van Buren was attacking him and his actions of sending 2 US statesman to a conference in Panama city in 1826. 

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Actually, it's more than just missed opportunities, he's talking about how there were opportunities to rescue Jews, and certain members of the government actively did whatever they could to sabotage any rescue attempts.

Edit: this is off-topic. The point is that Morgenthau saw people had the opportunity to rescue people from death. Those people either chose not to help them or actively prevented any attempted rescue. In his opinion, that's the same as actually killing the person yourself. My point is tied to his remark. If you witness someone do or say something morally wrong, you should do whatever you can to correct it.

Politics is almost never that simple.  Especially international politics. 

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Better quote

" The United States does not go looking for dragons to slay"

John Quincy Adams

[tractrpl]

Except there's quite alot of evidence that certain elements within the government were actually doing quite alot to prevent Jewish rescue attempts. If you wish to investigate it more, I encourage you to do so. I'm not an information repository, however, so I encourage you to do some research on your own.

Again this is beside my main point regarding speaking out if you see evil.

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Actually, it's more than just missed opportunities, he's talking about how there were opportunities to rescue Jews, and certain members of the government actively did whatever they could to sabotage any rescue attempts.

Edit: this is off-topic. The point is that Morgenthau saw people had the opportunity to rescue people from death. Those people either chose not to help them or actively prevented any attempted rescue. In his opinion, that's the same as actually killing the person yourself. My point is tied to his remark. If you witness someone do or say something morally wrong, you should do whatever you can to correct it.

Politics is almost never that simple.  Especially international politics. 

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Actually alot of Germans did speak out, go google the White Rose movement see how well that ended for them

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Except there's quite alot of evidence that certain elements within the government were actually doing quite alot to prevent Jewish rescue attempts. If you wish to investigate it more, I encourage you to do so. I'm not an information repository, however, so I encourage you to do some research on your own.

Again this is beside my main point regarding speaking out if you see evil.

You say there is alot of evidence. Burden of proof doesn't rest with the person challenging the statement.

If I say Barack Obama is a baby killing vampire. Its not up to someone who says "no he isn't" to prove my statements wrong. 

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

Better quote

" The United States does not go looking for dragons to slay"

John Quincy Adams

Even debating whether or not the US had the capability to rescue those Jews is irrelevent. What is relevent is my point: speak out. That doesn't mean you have to physically stop the evil doer yourself, but you let it be known to world and do whatever you can to stop it.

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

Better quote

" The United States does not go looking for dragons to slay"

John Quincy Adams

Even debating whether or not the US had the capability to rescue those Jews is irrelevent. What is relevent is my point: speak out. That doesn't mean you have to physically stop the evil doer yourself, but you let it be known to world and do whatever you can to stop it.

Not what you said earlier.
"
. If you witness someone do or say something morally wrong, you should do whatever you can to correct it. "


Sure speak out against wrong doings for all the good that will do

Modifié par Irishfafnir, 28 avril 2012 - 10:15 .

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Except there's quite alot of evidence that certain elements within the government were actually doing quite alot to prevent Jewish rescue attempts. If you wish to investigate it more, I encourage you to do so. I'm not an information repository, however, so I encourage you to do some research on your own.

Again this is beside my main point regarding speaking out if you see evil.

You say there is alot of evidence. Burden of proof doesn't rest with the person challenging the statement.

If I say Barack Obama is a baby killing vampire. Its not up to someone who says "no he isn't" to prove my statements wrong. 

Like I said, do some research. I did an entire undergraduate course of study of this very subject. I read thousand of pages, wrote several papers on this very subject. There are numerous books, documents, documented conversations regarding the subject. Please do your own research. I'm not a library.

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

Better quote

" The United States does not go looking for dragons to slay"

John Quincy Adams

Even debating whether or not the US had the capability to rescue those Jews is irrelevent. What is relevent is my point: speak out. That doesn't mean you have to physically stop the evil doer yourself, but you let it be known to world and do whatever you can to stop it.

"
. If you witness someone do or say something morally wrong, you should do whatever you can to correct it. "

Not what you said earlier. 

Yes it is. If you're unarmed, of course you can't stop the evil doer, but you should alert the police.  Similar situation here.

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Except there's quite alot of evidence that certain elements within the government were actually doing quite alot to prevent Jewish rescue attempts. If you wish to investigate it more, I encourage you to do so. I'm not an information repository, however, so I encourage you to do some research on your own.

Again this is beside my main point regarding speaking out if you see evil.

You say there is alot of evidence. Burden of proof doesn't rest with the person challenging the statement.

If I say Barack Obama is a baby killing vampire. Its not up to someone who says "no he isn't" to prove my statements wrong. 

Like I said, do some research. I did an entire undergraduate course of study of this very subject. I read thousand of pages, wrote several papers on this very subject. There are numerous books, documents, documented conversations regarding the subject. Please do your own research. I'm not a library.

Yea thats how debates go in the primaries- If a candidate makes an assertion without any facts he can tell his oppenent to go look it up

lol

[tractrpl]

Better yet, I bet, since you're a conservative, you support Israel? Then you should visit the Yad Vashem website, or visit Israel and discover for yourself.

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

Better quote

" The United States does not go looking for dragons to slay"

John Quincy Adams

Even debating whether or not the US had the capability to rescue those Jews is irrelevent. What is relevent is my point: speak out. That doesn't mean you have to physically stop the evil doer yourself, but you let it be known to world and do whatever you can to stop it.

"
. If you witness someone do or say something morally wrong, you should do whatever you can to correct it. "

Not what you said earlier. 

Yes it is. If you're unarmed, of course you can't stop the evil doer, but you should alert the police.  Similar situation here.

Not talking about on a personal level, talking about on a trans state level

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Except there's quite alot of evidence that certain elements within the government were actually doing quite alot to prevent Jewish rescue attempts. If you wish to investigate it more, I encourage you to do so. I'm not an information repository, however, so I encourage you to do some research on your own.

Again this is beside my main point regarding speaking out if you see evil.

You say there is alot of evidence. Burden of proof doesn't rest with the person challenging the statement.

If I say Barack Obama is a baby killing vampire. Its not up to someone who says "no he isn't" to prove my statements wrong. 

Like I said, do some research. I did an entire undergraduate course of study of this very subject. I read thousand of pages, wrote several papers on this very subject. There are numerous books, documents, documented conversations regarding the subject. Please do your own research. I'm not a library.

Yea thats how debates go in the primaries- If a candidate makes an assertion without any facts he can tell his oppenent to go look it up

lol

So basically you're telling me that what I'm saying is false unless I personally give you a PhD thesis on the matter that I wrote?

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Better yet, I bet, since you're a conservative, you support Israel? Then you should visit the Yad Vashem website, or visit Israel and discover for yourself.

lol What does Israel have to do with anything?

You are liberal? SO I guess you support Socialized Medicine, then you should go visit Great Britian and discover for yourself!

....... Not Germane to the conversation

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Except there's quite alot of evidence that certain elements within the government were actually doing quite alot to prevent Jewish rescue attempts. If you wish to investigate it more, I encourage you to do so. I'm not an information repository, however, so I encourage you to do some research on your own.

Again this is beside my main point regarding speaking out if you see evil.

You say there is alot of evidence. Burden of proof doesn't rest with the person challenging the statement.

If I say Barack Obama is a baby killing vampire. Its not up to someone who says "no he isn't" to prove my statements wrong. 

Like I said, do some research. I did an entire undergraduate course of study of this very subject. I read thousand of pages, wrote several papers on this very subject. There are numerous books, documents, documented conversations regarding the subject. Please do your own research. I'm not a library.

Yea thats how debates go in the primaries- If a candidate makes an assertion without any facts he can tell his oppenent to go look it up

lol

So basically you're telling me that what I'm saying is false unless I personally give you a PhD thesis on the matter that I wrote?

Not but you shouldn't expect someone to accept what you say as Dogma with only one letter.

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

Not talking about on a personal level, talking about on a trans state level

Much of the stuff on the trans state level is similar. Certain elements within the administration knew of what was going on, they were also aware of items at their disposal to rescue Jews. Those items were presented, others actively denied or delayed the emplimentation of these plans. So, those elements were guilty of trying to prevent the rescue of Jews. They knew what would happen to them, but they prevented taking action. They're therefore guilty of killing them themselves.

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Better yet, I bet, since you're a conservative, you support Israel? Then you should visit the Yad Vashem website, or visit Israel and discover for yourself.

lol What does Israel have to do with anything?

You are liberal? SO I guess you support Socialized Medicine, then you should go visit Great Britian and discover for yourself!

....... Not Germane to the conversation

Yes it is. I'm telling you to go research it. That's like saying well, produce evidence for me RIGHT THIS SECONG that evolution is true. Well, there's lots of information available to you, why do I need to produce evidence when there's plenty of evidence already out there?

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

Not but you shouldn't expect someone to accept what you say as Dogma with only one letter.

That's exactly what you're saying. You have the ability to do your own research. You're dismissing my argument merely because you choose not to believe and are too lazy to do your own research. Why should I present evidence to you, anyway? You're not actually going to read it are you?

[Irishfafnir]

Read the letter.

Look should people call the police or whatever when they see wrong doing? Sure

Should states be morally obligated to intervene when another state is involved in moral wrong doing? Not always

Modifié par Irishfafnir, 28 avril 2012 - 10:28 .

[mauro2222]

Lol, what's wrong with public health care?