444 réponses à ce sujet

[tractrpl]

Filanwizard wrote...

Why can people just not play the game and enjoy it? Why analyze the origins of the characters this deeply?

Cause the ending. 

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

The end of nationalism does not equal a growth in human understanding. Europe is defined less by national boundaries but has seen a rampant growth in foreign resentment ( particularly against muslims, but also against eastern europeans)

Clash of Civilizations - pretty much stated that the future people will align more towards their cultural group then national group. IE "Western"

Yes and no. It's hard to predict. LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE!!! From my observations, the Chinese are less strict on cultural rules then the Koreans or the Japanese, yet both the latter is able to integrate very well with western relations. I think the Chinese-US split is less about cultural differences and more about a few group of people on one side being greedy. If China can over that authoritarian streak (and they've made lots of progress in the last 20 years), then essentially they'll be no real "clash" of cultures between our nations like there is between ours and muslim cultures currently.

Samuel huntington wasn't so much aruging that Clashes between cultures was inevitable but rather that people would start aligning themselves by culture group, and that future conflicts would be between cultures. 

The guy who is seeking politcal asylum in the US embassy in China right now and is sparking debate again about China's policies hardly seems reinforce the image of the chinese government. Especially with accusations of forced abortions, government sanctioned police brutality, and sham trials. 

China isn't very open towards the Japanese, this even extends to state policy where they intentionally do not purchase Japanese debt. They keep the memory of Japense abuses in China alive from 80 years ago. 

I'd argue there is a very real underlaying conflict right now between the Western World and China. This is reflected in the increase in US forces in the pacific region, and the Chinese attempts to acquire Western military technology that prop up in the news every 3-4 months

Modifié par Irishfafnir, 29 avril 2012 - 12:57 .

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

Samuel huntington wasn't so much aruging that Clashes between cultures was inevitable but rather that people would start aligning themselves by culture group, and that future conflicts would be between cultures. 

The guy who is seeking politcal asylum in the US embassy in China right now and is sparking debate again about China's policies hardly seems reinforce the image of the chinese government. Especially with accusations of forced abortions, government sanctioned police brutality, and sham trials. 

Yes, but similar abuses happened in Taiwan, Japan, and Korea previously. They don't happen often anymore. I don't think their culture changed so much as they just progressed as a nation. The same will likely happen in China, given the positive progress they've achieved in the past 30 years or so. Remember that a little over 30 years ago, they were a closed society, no one could enter. Then they had the open door policy and started implementing market reforms. They've also started reforming government slightly, but they've got a long way to go. They're at a point that these other nations were at in the past. Those nations got passed it, why can't China? 

As for Muslim society, well they're culture is tied to their religion. It's more difficult for them to adapt to different governmental structure than for the Chinese or Japanese or whomever.

[Irishfafnir]

Actually how the United States decides to treat Chen Guangcheng will go directly towards your morality argument-
Do we have a moral duty to protect this man and give him a platform to attack the Chinese government's totalitarian practices?

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

Samuel huntington wasn't so much aruging that Clashes between cultures was inevitable but rather that people would start aligning themselves by culture group, and that future conflicts would be between cultures. 

The guy who is seeking politcal asylum in the US embassy in China right now and is sparking debate again about China's policies hardly seems reinforce the image of the chinese government. Especially with accusations of forced abortions, government sanctioned police brutality, and sham trials. 

Yes, but similar abuses happened in Taiwan, Japan, and Korea previously. They don't happen often anymore. I don't think their culture changed so much as they just progressed as a nation. The same will likely happen in China, given the positive progress they've achieved in the past 30 years or so. Remember that a little over 30 years ago, they were a closed society, no one could enter. Then they had the open door policy and started implementing market reforms. They've also started reforming government slightly, but they've got a long way to go. They're at a point that these other nations were at in the past. Those nations got passed it, why can't China? 

As for Muslim society, well they're culture is tied to their religion. It's more difficult for them to adapt to different governmental structure than for the Chinese or Japanese or whomever.

Huge difference between Japan, Taiwan and Korea and Mainland China.  3 are republics that have checks and balances government.

Also never heard of Forced government abortions, gov't sanctioned police beatings, sham trials, and alleged government santioned murders lin South Korea or Japan. MAYBE in Taiwain back in the 50's and 60's. But none of those states have such draconian population control measures as China. 

Not to mention China's long time stance of support for Authoritarian regimes, Such As YugoSlovia, Iran, Syria, Libya. 


http://www.nytimes.c.../13beijing.html  

Modifié par Irishfafnir, 29 avril 2012 - 01:05 .

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

China isn't very open towards the Japanese, this even extends to state policy where they intentionally do not purchase Japanese debt. They keep the memory of Japense abuses in China alive from 80 years ago. 

I'd argue there is a very real underlaying conflict right now between the Western World and China. This is reflected in the increase in US forces in the pacific region, and the Chinese attempts to acquire Western military technology that prop up in the news every 3-4 months

Well the wound runs very deep with the first one. They weren't able to get payback like we did. 

As far as the second comment, um, yes and no. We're in an economic cold war. No side want to fire a shot because they're afraid of mutually assured economic destruction. Such fears are actually beneficial, since we never really warred with Russia.

Also, China's deep economic ties with us helps in other ways. There are craploads of Americans in China and craploads of Chinese in the US. All there for economic reasons. This causes exchange of cultural ideas, values, and encourages cooperation. Also, the US Navy visits China often (60-80 per year). They let those sailors loose and they do all the typical things you imagine US sailors do when they visit foreign countries. They pretty much free roam. Not really a big deal. I don't see war between the US and China happening really anytime soon. I don't think it'll happen ever, to be honest. It might happen, but I don't think it's likely. There'll be lots of posturing, but the threat of war is far less than war between the US and the USSR ever was.

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

Actually how the United States decides to treat Chen Guangcheng will go directly towards your morality argument-
Do we have a moral duty to protect this man and give him a platform to attack the Chinese government's totalitarian practices?

Yes. China won't do anything about it. Economic cold war. They'll let us win this one.

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

China isn't very open towards the Japanese, this even extends to state policy where they intentionally do not purchase Japanese debt. They keep the memory of Japense abuses in China alive from 80 years ago. 

I'd argue there is a very real underlaying conflict right now between the Western World and China. This is reflected in the increase in US forces in the pacific region, and the Chinese attempts to acquire Western military technology that prop up in the news every 3-4 months

Well the wound runs very deep with the first one. They weren't able to get payback like we did. 

As far as the second comment, um, yes and no. We're in an economic cold war. No side want to fire a shot because they're afraid of mutually assured economic destruction. Such fears are actually beneficial, since we never really warred with Russia.

Also, China's deep economic ties with us helps in other ways. There are craploads of Americans in China and craploads of Chinese in the US. All there for economic reasons. This causes exchange of cultural ideas, values, and encourages cooperation. Also, the US Navy visits China often (60-80 per year). They let those sailors loose and they do all the typical things you imagine US sailors do when they visit foreign countries. They pretty much free roam. Not really a big deal. I don't see war between the US and China happening really anytime soon. I don't think it'll happen ever, to be honest. It might happen, but I don't think it's likely. There'll be lots of posturing, but the threat of war is far less than war between the US and the USSR ever was.

Not saying there will be a "hot war" between the United States and China, wars between Industrilized nuclear states will probably never happen. But there is a certain level of hostility that could be construed as a "cold war"

And China is definitly percieved both at a Political elite level and at a local level as the "bad guys". Constantly veoting any meaningful resolution on Iran and Syria doesn't help their cause. They actively work against our interests throughout the world.

Modifié par Irishfafnir, 29 avril 2012 - 01:14 .

[Stokie Stallion]

Sdrol117 wrote...

Javik is african. /thread

I lol'd then sincerely agreed.

[Filanwizard]

China's threat is not as big as some claim however. Yes people state they could crash our economy and that is likely true. However the Chinese economy depends on Americans shopping at Walmart so they would kill their economy if they killed ours.

[medcsu]

The biggest threat coming out of China is:
1) The fact they seem to be caught every month hacking into some vital global system. This includes stealing schematics, viewing secret intel, and the like.
2) World of Warcraft gold farming (couldn't resist...)

Irish, you seem like a very well educated man with every single post completely debunking what is being thrown out.

[Irishfafnir]

medcsu wrote...

The biggest threat coming out of China is:
1) The fact they seem to be caught every month hacking into some vital global system. This includes stealing schematics, viewing secret intel, and the like.
2) World of Warcraft gold farming (couldn't resist...)

Irish, you seem like a very well educated man with every single post completely debunking what is being thrown out.

1- Yea they also have horrible copyright protection laws, which makes them really unattractive to some American Businesses, and is why some American companies have returned from overseas. But yea they are constantly attempted to steal technology and information, remeber when google pulled out of China? It was essentially because of that.

- 
http://www.telegraph...to-America.html   I don't agree with everything in this article, especially the parts about Oil self sufficiency for America but it brings up several reasons why China is not attractive for businesses 


2- I think the gold farming you see on Wow servers is actually Tawainese players, since Mainland chinese players are on a different system. But I could be wrong. 

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

Huge difference between Japan, Taiwan and Korea and Mainland China.  3 are republics that have checks and balances government.

Also never heard of Forced government abortions, gov't sanctioned police beatings, sham trials, and alleged government santioned murders lin South Korea or Japan. MAYBE in Taiwain back in the 50's and 60's. But none of those states have such draconian population control measures as China. 

Not to mention China's long time stance of support for Authoritarian regimes, Such As YugoSlovia, Iran, Syria, Libya. 


http://www.nytimes.c.../13beijing.html  

Well, I don't think you have much to worry about having a protracted cold war with China. I happen to have some inside information about that. This information is not public knowledge, but is well known to businessmen and US officials that have to deal with Chinese officials on a regular basis. There's no way for me to be able to prove it to you, so you're free to believe me or not, but it's a cool story you might like it.

Basically a few months ago, I happen to have met and had conversations with a high ranking (and I do mean high ranking) Chinese government official that's been retired for about 8 years now. Guys that do major trading and business with China all have similar stories. That's why it's not common knowledge, but not really secret, either.

Basically there's two groups who have power in China: the princelings, who have inherited power from a parent that held political office during the Mao era, and a group I like to call "the Illusive Men". The Illusive Men rose to power after the death of Mao and the start of market reforms and the open door policy. They were recruited from people who graduated with engineering or science degrees from before the cultural revolution destroyed the quality of their universities. The ones that achieved high ranks all are super-smart, charasmatic as hell, always have a cigarette in their hands, and have a glass of liquor nearby, or so I'm told. At least this former official fit the profile. That's why I call them Illusive Men. 

This former official told me straight away he thought America was the greatest country in the world (could be flattery). He sent his kids to get educated in the US, and he has numerous investments here. He hates Mao Zedong, and he showed my fiance lots of books he had that are officially banned by the government that are critical of the Communist Party and of Mao Zedong and other leaders. (You could tell he read it obsessively. They were well worn and he marked pages and such.) These Illusive Men have penetrated all levels of the Chinese government, and they seem to be pushing towards reform. Some of them may love their power above all else, but they love America, so the more of them that gain power, the more receptive China will be towards American wishes.

The Illusive Men and the princelings are in a sort of power struggle right now. That's what the whole Bo Xilai affair's about: a power struggle between the reformists and the hardline conservatives. The person that's presumed to succeed Hu Jintao is Xi Jinping, a guy that looks to be some sort of cross between the Illusive Men and the princelings. His dad was one of the early communists, but his dad was purged during the cultural revolution and he was sent down to work farms during the "down to the countryside" endeavor. These "sent down boys/girls" typically harbor great resentment towards elements of the old regime (if not the entire communist party in general), so it remains to be seen how he'll behave. He actually received his engineering degree after the cultural revolution, so he's younger than the original Illusive Men this retired official I met.

Once these Illusive Men gain absolute control, they might yet implement a democracy, but from what I understand they value stability above all else. So, what they might implement instead is a technocracy, where only highly educated and qualified people (like them) are allowed to participate in government. Either way, I don't think China will be a threat anymore when this happens. These guys seem to really love America, they love the very idea of America (evident by how they love to visit here and send their children off to get married/get educated in the US). If they're successful at taking the reigns of government, you won't need to worry.

[Irishfafnir]

The future is up to speculation. What is certain right now is China has a history of being hostile to western interests both in foreign policy and in the economy. 

and I think you will excuse me if I don't believe someone on the Mass Effect 3 forums claiming to have insider "secret information" regarding Chinese political figures desiring a western style democracy. No offense


and again just because China becomes a Democracy doesn't mean we won't continue to compete with them. Hopefully it would end their support for totalitarian regimes. Democratic countries have often competited against other nations for power and influence in the world the 19th century in particular is full of them.


Heck you could say right now that the United States and Russia are competiting for power in eastern Europe. Although some people probably wouldn't call Russia a "democracy"

Modifié par Irishfafnir, 29 avril 2012 - 02:48 .

[tractrpl]

medcsu wrote...

The biggest threat coming out of China is:
1) The fact they seem to be caught every month hacking into some vital global system. This includes stealing schematics, viewing secret intel, and the like.
2) World of Warcraft gold farming (couldn't resist...)

Irish, you seem like a very well educated man with every single post completely debunking what is being thrown out.

The US military has been pretty stupid about it. Almost all military computers still run Windows XP (I mean windows XP? Really?), and this is stuff that secret information is run on. Then we buy computer hardware from the Chinese that have malware programs embedded on the chip. Sloppy, sloppy. 

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

The future is up to speculation. What is certain right now is China has a history of being hostile to western interests both in foreign policy and in the economy. 

and I think you will excuse me if I don't believe someone on the Mass Effect 3 forums claiming to have insider "secret information" regarding Chinese political figures desiring a western style democracy. No offense

No offense taken. I would be dissapointed if I could sway you so easily. Like I said, it's really not insider information. I had thought I had gotten the drop on super secret information, but then I went hiking up Victoria Peak one day. On my walk, I ran into two trader types, big whigs that drive porsches sort of people. Anyway, these guys started to tell me similar stories. They have met far more high officials than I have. They had great stories to tell like a friend called them and said "Hey, you know that spy plane that crashed in China? Well tomorrow at noon they're gonna hand it over." Sure enough, it happened.

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

medcsu wrote...

The biggest threat coming out of China is:
1) The fact they seem to be caught every month hacking into some vital global system. This includes stealing schematics, viewing secret intel, and the like.
2) World of Warcraft gold farming (couldn't resist...)

Irish, you seem like a very well educated man with every single post completely debunking what is being thrown out.

The US military has been pretty stupid about it. Almost all military computers still run Windows XP (I mean windows XP? Really?), and this is stuff that secret information is run on. Then we buy computer hardware from the Chinese that have malware programs embedded on the chip. Sloppy, sloppy. 

They don't just target the defense department they often attack US companies as well. I agree purchasing the computer programs from China was a stupid decision, unforunately some US politicians increasingly push for the purchase of foreign items to offset the cost of development in the United States.

It really goes to a larger question of should the United States develop unilaterally defense programs, or should it defray some of those costs by purchasing from abroad or developing them in conjunction with our "allies".

edit-
http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all   article on why Google pulled out of China

Modifié par Irishfafnir, 29 avril 2012 - 02:53 .

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

and again just because China becomes a Democracy doesn't mean we won't continue to compete with them. Hopefully it would end their support for totalitarian regimes. Democratic countries have often competited against other nations for power and influence in the world the 19th century in particular is full of them.


Heck you could say right now that the United States and Russia are competiting for power in eastern Europe. Although some people probably wouldn't call Russia a "democracy"

I agree, but competition is not always such a bad thing. It could boost the economies of both our nations. I'd say Russia's about as democratic as Stalin's backside right now.

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

and again just because China becomes a Democracy doesn't mean we won't continue to compete with them. Hopefully it would end their support for totalitarian regimes. Democratic countries have often competited against other nations for power and influence in the world the 19th century in particular is full of them.


Heck you could say right now that the United States and Russia are competiting for power in eastern Europe. Although some people probably wouldn't call Russia a "democracy"

I agree, but competition is not always such a bad thing. It could boost the economies of both our nations. I'd say Russia's about as democratic as Stalin's backside right now.

I don't know about boosting our economy, getting involved in proxy wars in Afghanstan for the Soviets and Vietnam for the Americans was expensive.Having to maintain 5,000 marines in australia because of Chinese concerns won't be cheap. But the last American Ambassador to the USSR was at my school last fall and argued that it would have been better for the Soviet Union to stay intact because it would have been useful in applying diplomatic pressure in areas like the Middle East to avoid conflict. Essentially the United States would not have had to function as the world's only policemen.

I'm not sure I agreed with him, but the USSR was useful in helping to limit and stop some of the Arab-Israeli wars.

Modifié par Irishfafnir, 29 avril 2012 - 02:56 .

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

They don't just target the defense department they often attack US companies as well. I agree purchasing the computer programs from China was a stupid decision, unforunately some US politicians increasingly push for the purchase of foreign items to offset the cost of development in the United States.

It really goes to a larger question of should the United States develop unilaterally defense programs, or should it defray some of those costs by purchasing from abroad or developing them in conjunction with our "allies".

edit-
http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all   article on why Google pulled out of China

Well, from what I hear China has such a system for their defense information networks. They actually developed their own chips, with built in encryption on the chip, and then ran these systems on their own version of Linux. The US could do the same. It would cost us much more cause we'd have to manufacture locally, but we could do it. Such systems are nigh impossible to crack.

[xbeton0L]

I honestly gave this no thought. I see no point in honoring heritage, except only to recognise it. Otherwise. /controversy

/edit
In the terms of bettering the global human economy/ecosystem, once all people are recognised as people nonetheless, and can effectively dissolve the class system, will we as a human race overcome whatever obstacles presently facing us. Be them starvation, dominance, slavery, or control of resources.

Persons ennumerated are persons in numbers. Whatever concepts we can use to forward human survival should matter. All of this trivial nonsense causes much to confusion, and less to an actual effect.

For instance, the problem human society faces as a whole. How the agriultrual system has become strained because of overpopulation. How resources are meticulously stripped from countries unable to defend them, and thus suffer from the shortages. The problems themselves transcend what we know as common knowledge, but far beyond it.

Modifié par xbeton0L, 29 avril 2012 - 03:07 .

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

They don't just target the defense department they often attack US companies as well. I agree purchasing the computer programs from China was a stupid decision, unforunately some US politicians increasingly push for the purchase of foreign items to offset the cost of development in the United States.

It really goes to a larger question of should the United States develop unilaterally defense programs, or should it defray some of those costs by purchasing from abroad or developing them in conjunction with our "allies".

edit-
http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all   article on why Google pulled out of China

Well, from what I hear China has such a system for their defense information networks. They actually developed their own chips, with built in encryption on the chip, and then ran these systems on their own version of Linux. The US could do the same. It would cost us much more cause we'd have to manufacture locally, but we could do it. Such systems are nigh impossible to crack.

Then we aren't going to be able to cut the defense department budget if you want to develop and manufacture defense department materials stateside 

I think there is an ongoing debate right now IIRC about to use Italian made helocopters for the Marines. I will google around

Modifié par Irishfafnir, 29 avril 2012 - 02:58 .

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

I don't know about boosting our economy, getting involved in proxy wars in Afghanstan for the Soviets and Vietnam for the Americans was expensive.Having to maintain 5,000 marines in australia because of Chinese concerns won't be cheap. But the last American Ambassador to the USSR was at my school last fall and argued that it would have been better for the Soviet Union to stay intact because it would have been useful in applying diplomatic pressure in areas like the Middle East to avoid conflict. Essentially the United States would not have had to function as the world's only policemen.

I'm not sure I agreed with him, but the USSR was useful in helping to limit and stop some of the Arab-Israeli wars.

I don't think I buy it either. I mean the crap that the US did just to counter the growth of Russia REALLY came back to bite us on the butt later, don't you think?

[Irishfafnir]

IT wasn't for the Marines it was the presidential chopper

http://blog.seattlep...ential-contest/