444 réponses à ce sujet

[Filanwizard]

My shep is a Spacer hes not from any country.

In ME1 the red shirt was not even from Earth, he was from Eden Prime.

[Xmus88]

Also I think its funny how you refer to China as a developing country, when they have one of the most stable economies in the world right now...

And to the guy above me, I think it is stupid to generalize how entire races view certain things, actually I think it is borderline racist

[tractrpl]

Xmus88 wrote...

Also I think its funny how you refer to China as a developing country, when they have one of the most stable economies in the world right now...

And to the guy above me, I think it is stupid to generalize how entire races view certain things, actually I think it is borderline racist

No, it's culturalist. 

Anyway, I do realize that many Americans do actually believe in the value of education. Many don't think being smart is wrong, or "nerdy" but many do. From my own perspective, I see it quite often. There is an anti-intellectualism movement growing in America. If it's allowed to gain steam, they will succeed in their wishes, and very soon, we won't have the top universities in the world anymore. Once our education system becomes second rate, our nation becomes second rate. Mark my words on that.

Modifié par tractrpl, 27 avril 2012 - 01:07 .

[Emzamination]

Xmus88 wrote...

Also I think its funny how you refer to China as a developing country, when they have one of the most stable economies in the world right now...

And to the guy above me, I think it is stupid to generalize how entire races view certain things, actually I think it is borderline racist

Its always amusing how one person enters a argument and blows both sides out the water.

This is also why I did not retort due to subject sensitivity.

[Foxhound2121]

tractrpl wrote...


But China is rising. They were hammered hard because of the opium wars, exploitation from Europe and Japan, and then there was WWII, the civil war, and finally Mao Zedong. He damn near did more damage than any foreign country. But they're rebuilding. Their number of college graduates is growing as well, as is the quality of their native educational institutions. 

What have we been doing in the meantime? We've been stagnating, not making any effort to improve. Let's look at it this way. If far more Asian Americans go to college than the average American, why? Don't you think it's tied to their culture, their values? Yes, white Jews far outnumber asians percentage-wise, but there's only 7 million of them compared to the billions of Asians. If China continues it's rise, they'll have more spare cash to spend on education and research. Unless they get raped by us westerners again like we did to them during the 1800's, there's no stopping them. They will dominate us eventually. 

They use to say the same thing about Japan. Never happened.

Nobody is dominating anyone. Being a hegemony has a lot more to do with mutual economics than dominance.
The only real advantage China has is cheap labor. There really is no future in that.

Also, China does not have the domestic demand  to keep their economy churning. They sell their goods to the west, or the west produces their goods in China. If the western world decreased ecomically, the United States would be threatened with a depression, while China would be threatened with a revolution or massive famine.

[tractrpl]

Emzamination wrote...

Xmus88 wrote...

Also I think its funny how you refer to China as a developing country, when they have one of the most stable economies in the world right now...

And to the guy above me, I think it is stupid to generalize how entire races view certain things, actually I think it is borderline racist

Its always amusing how one person enters a argument and blows both sides out the water.

This is also why I did not retort due to subject sensitivity.

I just believe that many Americans (and westerners, I suppose) have an unjustified belief in their own superiority, and a perplexing conviction that America will be the dominate culture forever. I'm showing them that they're thinking is wrong. Whether they like it or not, America will one day fall, nothing lasts forever. Even if we get unified under a one-world government, the notion that American culture will be the dominate in that global hegemony is ridiculous.

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

Horrible comparison, you yourself admit that you only have knowledge of Chinese educational elite while just playing into american sterotypes I would refrain from making that argument in the future if I were you.

More Americans then ever are going to college, we( English speaking world) have the best educational facilities in the world and we( western world) have 8 of the 11 largest economies in the world. The developing world experiences significant brain drain to western nations. 

Lastly although china has 4-5 times the population of the United States it only had twice the number of college graduates. 

But China is rising. They were hammered hard because of the opium wars, exploitation from Europe and Japan, and then there was WWII, the civil war, and finally Mao Zedong. He damn near did more damage than any foreign country. But they're rebuilding. Their number of college graduates is growing as well, as is the quality of their native educational institutions. 

What have we been doing in the meantime? We've been stagnating, not making any effort to improve. Let's look at it this way. If far more Asian Americans go to college than the average American, why? Don't you think it's tied to their culture, their values? Yes, white Jews far outnumber asians percentage-wise, but there's only 7 million of them compared to the billions of Asians. If China continues it's rise, they'll have more spare cash to spend on education and research. Unless they get raped by us westerners again like we did to them during the 1800's, there's no stopping them. They will dominate us eventually. 

Umn American Educational system has shown vast improvements in the last 50 years, the numbers of high school, and college graduates has soared. Not to mention the quality of education has dramatically increased especially for those with a low socio-economic standard. More americans then ever have access to some form of a college education. 

Secondly Americans are more then twice as likely to go to College then Chinese Mainlanders AND that educational experience will probably be better.

By point of Jewish-Americans was that you can't look at a ethnic group and then oversimplify things by saying xyz group is better then abc group. Refer back to my comment regarding the fact that many Asian-Americans live on the west coast where educational oppertunities are very cheap and affordable. Secondly the sheer number of White americans makes classifying them into one group difficult. Take this example of faulty logic on your part

- The Number of people living in the State of Massachusetts is roughly equal to the number of asian americans. Most of these members will be white. The median income, educational value, number going to college greatly exceeds that of asian americans as a whole. However to make a statement that there is something about Massachusetten values or culture that makes them inherently more likely to succed is stupid. 

Lastly many more Asian Americans go to college then native chinese. That probably says something more about the American experience and oppertunites then something about their race that makes them inherently more likely to succed. 


We live in a western world, that is not going to change. Even if China continues to grow they will essentially be a westernized country. They have abandonded their traditional government, educational system, and economic system in favor of western systems. The world has become globalized and it did so in a Western fashion



~ I call China a developing nation because its average household income levels does not meet the IMF's definition of a developed nation. The stability of a nation's economy has little to do with where you stand in terms of developed/developing. But the term is pretty ambigious. Better to say China has not reached the West in terms of socio-economic conditions.

[tractrpl]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

They use to say the same thing about Japan. Never happened.

Nobody is dominating anyone. Being a hegemony has a lot more to do with mutual economics than dominance.
The only real advantage China has is cheap labor. There really is no future in that.

Also, China does not have the domestic demand  to keep their economy churning. They sell their goods to the west, or the west produces their goods in China. If the western world decreased ecomically, the United States would be threatened with a depression, while China would be threatened with a revolution or massive famine.

Japan's population is barely larger than California. Also, you're basing the future on current trends. China today is vastly different than a mere 30 years ago. 30 years from now, China may be unrecognizable.

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Xmus88 wrote...

Also I think its funny how you refer to China as a developing country, when they have one of the most stable economies in the world right now...

And to the guy above me, I think it is stupid to generalize how entire races view certain things, actually I think it is borderline racist

Its always amusing how one person enters a argument and blows both sides out the water.

This is also why I did not retort due to subject sensitivity.

I just believe that many Americans (and westerners, I suppose) have an unjustified belief in their own superiority, and a perplexing conviction that America will be the dominate culture forever. I'm showing them that they're thinking is wrong. Whether they like it or not, America will one day fall, nothing lasts forever. Even if we get unified under a one-world government, the notion that American culture will be the dominate in that global hegemony is ridiculous.

No one is saying this. 



Merely explaining why English would be the language most widely spoken in 100 years.

Also american culture does dominate the world. You can thank Hollywood for that

Modifié par Irishfafnir, 27 avril 2012 - 01:17 .

[Emzamination]

tractrpl wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Xmus88 wrote...

Also I think its funny how you refer to China as a developing country, when they have one of the most stable economies in the world right now...

And to the guy above me, I think it is stupid to generalize how entire races view certain things, actually I think it is borderline racist

Its always amusing how one person enters a argument and blows both sides out the water.

This is also why I did not retort due to subject sensitivity.

I just believe that many Americans (and westerners, I suppose) have an unjustified belief in their own superiority, and a perplexing conviction that America will be the dominate culture forever. I'm showing them that they're thinking is wrong. Whether they like it or not, America will one day fall, nothing lasts forever. Even if we get unified under a one-world government, the notion that American culture will be the dominate in that global hegemony is ridiculous.

Americans aren't the only ones with a feeling of Superiority.I happen to remember during the 08 beijing olympics, Americans were referred to as dogs by the chinese while guest in china.You were saying?

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

- The Number of people living in the State of Massachusetts is roughly equal to the number of asian americans. Most of these members will be white. The median income, educational value, number going to college greatly exceeds that of asian americans as a whole. However to make a statement that there is something about Massachusetten values or culture that makes them inherently more likely to succed is stupid. 

Actually, Massachutes' culture IS an example, namely liberal. Mississippi, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Georgia, etc., these states are poor, they're typically conservative, they typically have high rates of violent crime and teen pregnancy, they have fewer college graduates as well as a higher high school dropout rate. So the question is why?

Maybe the fact that they're poorer is the cause of their problems, or maybe it's their culture that drives them to behave in such a way which eventually causes them to become poorer, more violent, more likely to vote conservative, etc.  I think it's more of a feedback system of sorts. Their culture causes them to value education and things less highly, which causes them to become poor, which makes education less attainable, which causes them to be poor, etc. 

Massachutes is richer, part of that may be due to circumstance, but I think much of it is due to their culture as well. As for China, their culture is rapidly changing. Their becoming more rich, and more educated. Which drives more people to become more educated in a positive feedback loop that might result in their society become more rich and powerful than our own.

You also bring up a good point about if China becomes more powerful, it is due to their adopting the Western way. This is true. I believe that China will become a democracy before they overtake us in terms of economic power, but overtake us they will. Even though the future dominant society of the world may seem familiar to us in its values and mores, it will still be dominated from China.

Modifié par tractrpl, 27 avril 2012 - 01:24 .

[tractrpl]

Emzamination wrote...

Americans aren't the only ones with a feeling of Superiority.I happen to remember during the 08 beijing olympics, Americans were referred to as dogs by the chinese while guest in china.You were saying?

You should see how my redneck family refers to anyone other than white people. 

[Foxhound2121]

tractrpl wrote...


Japan's population is barely larger than California. Also, you're basing the future on current trends. China today is vastly different than a mere 30 years ago. 30 years from now, China may be unrecognizable.

Chinese companies are far from competing with giants like Apple, Microsoft, or even Bioware, but when China starts to produce better technology or products than the rest of the world, then you can be worried. Atm though, all they really produce is cheap labor. Not exactly what I would call the future. Also, the only popular way success right now in China is working for the government, that is certainly not what I would call the future either. China's worst enemey is China.

[Xmus88]

tractrpl wrote...

I just believe that many Americans (and westerners, I suppose) have an unjustified belief in their own superiority, and a perplexing conviction that America will be the dominate culture forever. I'm showing them that they're thinking is wrong. Whether they like it or not, America will one day fall, nothing lasts forever. Even if we get unified under a one-world government, the notion that American culture will be the dominate in that global hegemony is ridiculous.

Just to inform you of my point of view I am Danish(small country in Europe). 

I do not think that USA will "fall", but I do sometimes get a bit annoyed at americans who think that USA the best and mightiest country in the world in every way. And that leads to the same point that you're making that IF the world is one unified, I do not think that everyone will act american. 
While american video games, movies and TV series are widely spread throughout the western world, most people do not have overly positive(or negative) opinions about america.

[tractrpl]

Note that by "dominated" I mean that the world will pay attention to China's markets more than ours, and they'll even eventually look towards Chinese education more than ours, and they'll look to China for technological advances more than ours. It may not mean that they dominate militarily, as I believe they'll eventually become a democracy and we'll be allies, anyway. But they may be the dominant military. Just like our military dominates the UK's, but we don't dominate the UK militarily.

[tractrpl]

Xmus88 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

I just believe that many Americans (and westerners, I suppose) have an unjustified belief in their own superiority, and a perplexing conviction that America will be the dominate culture forever. I'm showing them that they're thinking is wrong. Whether they like it or not, America will one day fall, nothing lasts forever. Even if we get unified under a one-world government, the notion that American culture will be the dominate in that global hegemony is ridiculous.

Just to inform you of my point of view I am Danish(small country in Europe). 

I do not think that USA will "fall", but I do sometimes get a bit annoyed at americans who think that USA the best and mightiest country in the world in every way. And that leads to the same point that you're making that IF the world is one unified, I do not think that everyone will act american. 
While american video games, movies and TV series are widely spread throughout the western world, most people do not have overly positive(or negative) opinions about america.

Oh, oh, oh, back up, I wrote to fast. I meant "fall" as in "won't be the top dog anymore". I don't mean "fall" as in "there will no longer be a USA". Sorry for the confusion, guys.

[tractrpl]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...


Japan's population is barely larger than California. Also, you're basing the future on current trends. China today is vastly different than a mere 30 years ago. 30 years from now, China may be unrecognizable.

Chinese companies are far from competing with giants like Apple, Microsoft, or even Bioware, but when China starts to produce better technology or products than the rest of the world, then you can be worried. Atm though, all they really produce is cheap labor. Not exactly what I would call the future. Also, the only popular way success right now in China is working for the government, that is certainly not what I would call the future either. China's worst enemey is China.

That's certainly not true. Taiwan (The Republic of China) was in the same position China is in now about 20 years ago. They were only known for their cheap labor. Now they make some of the world's most advanced electronics technology. Likely your motherboard was designed in Taiwan (but like everyone else, likely manufactured in China). If you have an HTC phone, that was engineered in Taiwan. What caused Taiwan to transition from being a cheap labor producer to being a tech giant rivaling Japan? Democracy. They  became actually democratic for once. In my opinion, if China follows suit, they will win. Of course, with a truly democratic China, we'll win too, but they'll quickly advance to Taiwan's level in a few generation's at most. If they reach Taiwan's level, they would surpass us in terms of the size of their economy, if not in terms of per capita GDP.

Modifié par tractrpl, 27 avril 2012 - 01:37 .

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Note that by "dominated" I mean that the world will pay attention to China's markets more than ours, and they'll even eventually look towards Chinese education more than ours, and they'll look to China for technological advances more than ours. It may not mean that they dominate militarily, as I believe they'll eventually become a democracy and we'll be allies, anyway. But they may be the dominant military. Just like our military dominates the UK's, but we don't dominate the UK militarily.

I don't even....

For one it is doubtful that the United States and China will be allies in the meaningful future. The Chinese government has adopted a basic attitude of let countries do their own thing without outside influence. In partiuclar Chinese Support of totaltarian regimes in Burma, Iran, North Korea, and Syria are major sticking points for western foreign policy. None of that is going to change anytime soon.

Secondly China needs to drastically improve its Educational facilities and technological firms if it wants to compete with America/W Europe/Japan. Virtually all major technological breakthroughs come from these three areas (+ Canada, S.Korea, and Singapore). I don't see this changing anytime soon. China's main strength and reason so many companies went overseas was low wages/low environmental regulation. China is also much more suspectable to price changes in natural resources like Oil/Natural Gas because it lacks meaningful deposits. This means that another massive spike in oil prices could retard chinese growth. 

China has a large ways to go before it is the dominant military. For one its military is easily 10-20 behind ours in terms of technology, that may not seem like much but look how much technology changed in between the world wars. Secondly China has no power projection, it can't send it military on large expeditions because it has a tiny navy and no overseas bases. And again go back to China's basic government philiosophy of let states do their own thing, does not lend well to power projection. Not to mention the US spends about 4 times as much on its military then the chinese.


Lastly democracy does not lead to economic growth, it is capitalism. China has a totalitarian government coupled with a capitalist economic system and it seems to be working well. And you do not have a very good knowledge of world history if you think a country becoming a democracy automatically means the United States will be friends with it.

The best known example would be the US relationship with Great Britian which was extremely hostile well into the 20th century.

But other examples would be USA relationship being sour with democratic countries would be

Our modern day relationship with Venezuela and Russia.

Modifié par Irishfafnir, 27 avril 2012 - 01:47 .

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Note that by "dominated" I mean that the world will pay attention to China's markets more than ours, and they'll even eventually look towards Chinese education more than ours, and they'll look to China for technological advances more than ours. It may not mean that they dominate militarily, as I believe they'll eventually become a democracy and we'll be allies, anyway. But they may be the dominant military. Just like our military dominates the UK's, but we don't dominate the UK militarily.

I don't even....

For one it is doubtful that the United States and China will be allies in the meaningful future. The Chinese government has adopted a basic attitude of let countries do their own thing without outside influence. In partiuclar Chinese Support of totaltarian regimes in Burma, Iran, North Korea, and Syria are major sticking points for western foreign policy. None of that is going to change anytime soon.

Secondly China needs to drastically improve its Educational facilities and technological firms if it wants to compete with America/W Europe/Japan. Virtually all major technological breakthroughs come from these three areas (+ Canada, S.Korea, and Singapore). I don't see this changing anytime soon. China's main strength and reason so many companies went overseas was low wages/low environmental regulation. China is also much more suspectable to price changes in natural resources like Oil/Natural Gas because it lacks meaningful deposits. This means that another massive spike in oil prices could retard chinese growth. 

China has a large ways to go before it is the dominant military. For one its military is easily 10-20 behind ours in terms of technology, that may not seem like much but look how much technology changed in between the world wars. Secondly China has no power projection, it can't send it military on large expeditions because it has a tiny navy and no overseas bases. And again go back to China's basic government philiosophy of let states do their own thing, does not lend well to power projection. Not to mention the US spends about 4 times as much on its military then the chinese.

The US has been the dominant military for what? 60 years? How long do you think that will last, hmmm? 100 more years? Doubtful. 

Also, did you see my post about Taiwan? They were in the same boat as China economically only 20 years ago. Now they're a technological powerhouse. Korea is also another example. They were nothing more than a labor farm merely 30 years ago. They have progressed rapidly.

Modifié par tractrpl, 27 avril 2012 - 01:47 .

[Foxhound2121]

tractrpl wrote...


That's certainly not true. Taiwan (The Republic of China) was in the same position China is in now about 20 years ago. They were only known for their cheap labor. Now they make some of the world's most advanced electronics technology. Likely your motherboard was designed in Taiwan (but like everyone else, likely manufactured in China). If you have an HTC phone, that was engineered in Taiwan. What caused Taiwan to transition from being a cheap labor producer to being a tech giant rivaling Japan? Democracy. They  became actually democratic for once. In my opinion, if China follows suit, they will win. Of course, with a truly democratic China, we'll win too, but they'll quickly advance to Taiwan's level in a few generation's at most. If they reach Taiwan's level, they would surpass us in terms of the size of their economy, if not in terms of per capita GDP.

The Apple Iphone is made in China too. Means just as much.

I am actually very worried about the stereotypes you believe about westerners.

Modifié par Foxhound2121, 27 avril 2012 - 01:51 .

[Irishfafnir]

We have been the sole Superpower for around 20 years. America has been a major power militarily for about 150 years. Western military has dominated the world for about 350 years or so.

Again I don't think you have a good knowledge of world history. Great Britain was superseded in education and industry by the United States and Germany in the 1870's. They remained a World power until the 1950's and it took two devastating world wars in order to bring them down. And even today Britain is still arguably a major power with the 3rd highest military spending, and the best force projection outside of the United States. 

China has still yet to overtake us in Education or Industry ( although I have no doubt that china's economy will eventually overtake ours I don't think it is a necessarily bad thing), short of a devastating world event I don't see the United States not being a Major Power in the foreseeable future.

Modifié par Irishfafnir, 27 avril 2012 - 01:54 .

[tractrpl]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...


That's certainly not true. Taiwan (The Republic of China) was in the same position China is in now about 20 years ago. They were only known for their cheap labor. Now they make some of the world's most advanced electronics technology. Likely your motherboard was designed in Taiwan (but like everyone else, likely manufactured in China). If you have an HTC phone, that was engineered in Taiwan. What caused Taiwan to transition from being a cheap labor producer to being a tech giant rivaling Japan? Democracy. They  became actually democratic for once. In my opinion, if China follows suit, they will win. Of course, with a truly democratic China, we'll win too, but they'll quickly advance to Taiwan's level in a few generation's at most. If they reach Taiwan's level, they would surpass us in terms of the size of their economy, if not in terms of per capita GDP.

The Apple Iphone is made in China too. Means just as much.

I am actually very worried about the stereotypes you believe about westerners.

Stereotypes? No. I'm concerned more about you conviction of America's eternal superiority.

Made in China means nothing. Designed in China means more. I was talking about technological advances made in Taiwain. They are a technological powerhouse, yet merely 20 years ago they were the same as China, nothing more than a cheap labor farm. If Taiwan could do it, then China could too. Many things about Taiwan were said about China, that they could never become a democracy, that they'd always be just a supply of cheap labor, but they were wrong. Even though they're bigger, that doesn't mean they couldn't do it.

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...


That's certainly not true. Taiwan (The Republic of China) was in the same position China is in now about 20 years ago. They were only known for their cheap labor. Now they make some of the world's most advanced electronics technology. Likely your motherboard was designed in Taiwan (but like everyone else, likely manufactured in China). If you have an HTC phone, that was engineered in Taiwan. What caused Taiwan to transition from being a cheap labor producer to being a tech giant rivaling Japan? Democracy. They  became actually democratic for once. In my opinion, if China follows suit, they will win. Of course, with a truly democratic China, we'll win too, but they'll quickly advance to Taiwan's level in a few generation's at most. If they reach Taiwan's level, they would surpass us in terms of the size of their economy, if not in terms of per capita GDP.

The Apple Iphone is made in China too. Means just as much.

I am actually very worried about the stereotypes you believe about westerners.

Stereotypes? No. I'm concerned more about you conviction of America's eternal superiority.

Made in China means nothing. Designed in China means more. I was talking about technological advances made in Taiwain. They are a technological powerhouse, yet merely 20 years ago they were the same as China, nothing more than a cheap labor farm. If Taiwan could do it, then China could too. Many things about Taiwan were said about China, that they could never become a democracy, that they'd always be just a supply of cheap labor, but they were wrong. Even though they're bigger, that doesn't mean they couldn't do it.

I'm concerned that you think that all Americans believe they are superior to everyone else.

[tractrpl]

Irishfafnir wrote...

I'm concerned that you think that all Americans believe they are superior to everyone else.

I don't, but there's no doubt that it's a common attitude amongst our people. The majority of my family is a prime example.

[Irishfafnir]

tractrpl wrote...

Irishfafnir wrote...

I'm concerned that you think that all Americans believe they are superior to everyone else.

I don't, but there's no doubt that it's a common attitude amongst our people. The majority of my family is a prime example.

Your family is not nessacarily reprenstative of the United States.

And to be fair the Western Concept of the World has won, so in a way the Western ideal was superior to the eastern approach.

Modifié par Irishfafnir, 27 avril 2012 - 02:05 .