231 réponses à ce sujet

[Jassu1979]

Numerous dialogue options were always at the heart of the Mass Effect series: its most distinguishing game mechanic, a feature that defined those games more than any combat.

And yet, the third installment reduced this crucial element to a bare minimum, paring it down to fewer dialogue options or replacing it with auto-dialogue altogether. Why is that?

Did they think that dumbing the game down and reducing the roleplaying aspect would make the game more appealing for a wider demographic? Were they too busy sticking to their schedule to be bothered with actually making room for various choices?

As much as I appreciate the writing behind most of ME3 (except for the ending and, to a lesser extent, the intro), I find that on the level of game mechanics, there were some very dubious choices made here.

[kavox]

Sacrificed in the name of online play and easier understanding to newer players.

[wright1978]

Yep i was very disappointed by this especially as before release i'd heard Casey saying that new modes wouldn't effect the level of choice people had to reflect their own personal Sheps. Then during game i would be sitting, mouse ready to make choices and shep would in automatic pilot say things my shep would never say. It seems clear to me that this came about out of making cutscenes for action mode and RPG mode suffering as a result. Really hope in future games they reverse this trend and only have very small amounts of autodialogue.

[Nightdragon8]

kavox wrote...

Sacrificed in the name of online play and easier understanding to newer players.

and dont forget "artistic intigerdy"

[Ryven]

Didn't a dev say (Yes I am aware that they said a lot of things) that there were very few conversations that only had 2 options?

Edit: Here it is. But, like it says in Chris' post, I am probably just to dumb to notice the third option in most conversations.

Modifié par Xydorn, 25 avril 2012 - 08:09 .

[Jassu1979]

As long as "dumbing down and watering down" means "more sales at lower costs" in corporate logic, I doubt that we can expect a change for the better.

Bioware started out as a company of enthusiasts who believed that if they provided excellent games, a market would be found for that product. And they were right.
But their first priority was creating excellent games, not maximizing sales. (Not that they did NOT want to sell as many copies as possible, but you could tell they were seriously invested in their games.)

Nowadays, though, the demands of the market come first, and the games have to take a backseat in relation to that.
So you lower the difficulty, dumb it all down for a bit - and voila! More sales for you.
And in a way, it really is the consumers' fault, because a considerable demographic WANTS games that are less challenging and less intelligent.

[txgoldrush]

kavox wrote...

Sacrificed in the name of online play and easier understanding to newer players.

No, sacrificed in the name of BETTER written protagonists, better voice acting, and far more organic conversations....

Face it, the dialogue wheel forced the writers to write multiple dialogue for almost every line, which in turn waters down the QUALITY of the dialogue.

The dialogue wheel also breaks up the flow of Meer and Hale because they have to show different tones for each little dialogue option every 3 seconds....the Reneagde is especially bad.

Nevermind that the three option system sucked monkey balls...lets see, the generally well written good option, the derp derp nuetral option, and the overplayed Reneagde option. DA2 is even worse with the sarcastic function....

Now for ME3, the Renegade options have been VASTLY improved where not only do they fit the philosophy, flow much better where Shep can alternate between the two without sounding schizophenic or out of character. Instaead of a dumb neutral option and a overplayed and off the mark renegade, we get a far more subtle Renegade dialogue.

Seriously fans can't see improvements if it hit them in the nose.....they want interactivity for the sake of interactivity, even if it hurts the games writing and voice acting. Ever heard Hale speak in a soft voice in th efirst two games...nope...could be the autodialogue allowing her to do so in ME3.

Ironically, fans want Bioware to be more like CD Projeckt, well gues what, the Witcher games have limited dialogue options and tons of autodialogue....LOL

[Ryven]

After playing through a second time it is glaringly apparent that many corners were cut. Probably due to time constraints. Not making excuses for Bioware, just pointing out the obvious.

[txgoldrush]

Xydorn wrote...

After playing through a second time it is glaringly apparent that many corners were cut. Probably due to time constraints. Not making excuses for Bioware, just pointing out the obvious.

No, it was an artistic decision to provide a better written Shepard.

[Ryven]

"STEEEEEEEEVE!!!!!!"
"I'm all right"
"You sure?"

[Jadebaby]

Xydorn wrote...

Didn't a dev say (Yes I am aware that they said a lot of things) that there were very few conversations that only had 2 options?

Edit: Here it is. But, like it says in Chris' post, I am probably just to dumb to notice the third option in most conversations.

The 3rd option is called 'speculate'.. and is very easy to miss because it's invisible. This is because you are meant to guess where it might be.

[Jadebaby]

txgoldrush wrote...

Xydorn wrote...

After playing through a second time it is glaringly apparent that many corners were cut. Probably due to time constraints. Not making excuses for Bioware, just pointing out the obvious.

No, it was an artistic decision to provide a better written Shepard.

Sorry but a better wriitten Shep would provide more choices, not less.

[wright1978]

No i don't want Bioware to be like CD Projeckt. I want them to be like Bioware in ME2 where dialogue was generally handled well. Very simple non character stuff was auto dialogued but anything else the dialogue wheel popped up. Also neutral dialogues are essential for actually roleplaying and characterisation. ME3 stripped away player control and suddenly introduced a canon autoshep who completely was out of character with the shep i'd played for 2 games. I'm not watching a movie, i'm playing a character. I don't just want to sit back and wacth the game flow by. I want to be involved in steering direction of character.

[grey_wind]

txgoldrush wrote...

Xydorn wrote...

After playing through a second time it is glaringly apparent that many corners were cut. Probably due to time constraints. Not making excuses for Bioware, just pointing out the obvious.

No, it was an artistic decision to provide a better written Shepard.

A better written version of SOME Shepards. Mostly paragons. The auto-dialogue is laughable for renegades or anybody who plays a morally ambiguous Shep.

[wright1978]

grey_wind wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Xydorn wrote...

After playing through a second time it is glaringly apparent that many corners were cut. Probably due to time constraints. Not making excuses for Bioware, just pointing out the obvious.

No, it was an artistic decision to provide a better written Shepard.

A better written version of SOME Shepards. Mostly paragons. The auto-dialogue is laughable for renegades or anybody who plays a morally ambiguous Shep.

Yeah renegades, renegons, paragades. I was extremely sad watching my shep who spent all of ME2 being bitter at alliance suddenly act like he is in love with them.

[MrGone]

txgoldrush wrote...

kavox wrote...

Sacrificed in the name of online play and easier understanding to newer players.

No, sacrificed in the name of BETTER written protagonists, better voice acting, and far more organic conversations....

Face it, the dialogue wheel forced the writers to write multiple dialogue for almost every line, which in turn waters down the QUALITY of the dialogue.

The dialogue wheel also breaks up the flow of Meer and Hale because they have to show different tones for each little dialogue option every 3 seconds....the Reneagde is especially bad.

Nevermind that the three option system sucked monkey balls...lets see, the generally well written good option, the derp derp nuetral option, and the overplayed Reneagde option. DA2 is even worse with the sarcastic function....

Now for ME3, the Renegade options have been VASTLY improved where not only do they fit the philosophy, flow much better where Shep can alternate between the two without sounding schizophenic or out of character. Instaead of a dumb neutral option and a overplayed and off the mark renegade, we get a far more subtle Renegade dialogue.

Seriously fans can't see improvements if it hit them in the nose.....they want interactivity for the sake of interactivity, even if it hurts the games writing and voice acting. Ever heard Hale speak in a soft voice in th efirst two games...nope...could be the autodialogue allowing her to do so in ME3.

Ironically, fans want Bioware to be more like CD Projeckt, well gues what, the Witcher games have limited dialogue options and tons of autodialogue....LOL

I can agree to this in certain conversations, but the issue (for me) isn't that the options are more limited every once in a while, it's an overall thing. It's the fact that again, BioWare seems to think a solution to a problem is to throw out all or most of it, rather than actually fixing it.

They did it with the inventory and the Mako from ME 1 to 2, with bosses and sidequests from 2 to 3, and with the dialogue choice emphasis in 3 as well. Seriously, there seems to be an attitude of "just cut it" rather than attempting the tougher solutions like - reworking Inventory UI to not suck, making the Mako handle less awkwardly, learn how to design a good boss, or just write more dialogue that still sounds natural while keeping as many choices available.

But then these are harder option, and we've seen quite a bit of aversion to the concept of working hard in ME3.

Modifié par MrGone, 25 avril 2012 - 08:32 .

[txgoldrush]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Xydorn wrote...

After playing through a second time it is glaringly apparent that many corners were cut. Probably due to time constraints. Not making excuses for Bioware, just pointing out the obvious.

No, it was an artistic decision to provide a better written Shepard.

Sorry but a better wriitten Shep would provide more choices, not less.

Wrong...the more choices you have, the more trade offs you have to give up, the more strain on your resources occur, and there are more things to take into account.

The more choices you have especially in a voice acted game, the shorter the responses, the choppier the voice acting, and the choppier the dialogue. Then you have to take the NPCs response into account, which spreads their dialogue out.

It seems Bioware has put much more into Shepards dialogue with two choices and autodialogue, than with three. DA2 for instance really did struggle with script choppiness and wild tone changes in VA if you mix it up.

Quantity works in sandbox RPGs and games like Planescape Torment which are not VA'd for the most part, does not work in more cinematic RPGs.

[Rabid Rooster]

txgoldrush wrote...

Xydorn wrote...

After playing through a second time it is glaringly apparent that many corners were cut. Probably due to time constraints. Not making excuses for Bioware, just pointing out the obvious.

No, it was an artistic decision to provide a better written Shepard.

But whos Shepard the Writer's or Players? One of the major draws to this game, an RPG , was player control and choice as quoted from Mass Effect:

"Players don’t just control Shepard, they completely become him (or her), with six different character classes to choose from and a variety of physical appearances.

Once you start the game and interact with others, you’ll realize just how open-ended the world is. You’ll decide absolutely everything that Shepard says, ranging from missions to romantic relationships,"

We went from the bolded part, to Auto Talking Shepard.

[Noelemahc]

A better written version of SOME Shepards. Mostly paragons. The auto-dialogue is laughable for renegades or anybody who plays a morally ambiguous Shep.

Let's face it, most of the auto-dialogue was written for an omnisexual all-forgiving slightly mind-numb Shepard. I'm fairly certain that even the most Paragonest of Paragons weren't like that in ME2.

[txgoldrush]

wright1978 wrote...

No i don't want Bioware to be like CD Projeckt. I want them to be like Bioware in ME2 where dialogue was generally handled well. Very simple non character stuff was auto dialogued but anything else the dialogue wheel popped up. Also neutral dialogues are essential for actually roleplaying and characterisation. ME3 stripped away player control and suddenly introduced a canon autoshep who completely was out of character with the shep i'd played for 2 games. I'm not watching a movie, i'm playing a character. I don't just want to sit back and wacth the game flow by. I want to be involved in steering direction of character.

wrong...he is far from out of character...a Reneagde Shepard does feel remorse and does have limits and can feel loss. Hell, Jack Bauer is one of the the biggest Renegade agent in fiction, but even he is haunted and feels the impacts of innocent lives lost when he fails.

And really, Javik sees through the Renegade Shep when you first meet him...he is not a resolute badass he thinks he is.

He was never your Shepard anyway.

I can easily say that Renegade Shep hid his demons in the first two games....

[Nightdragon8]

Jassu1979 wrote...

As long as "dumbing down and watering down" means "more sales at lower costs" in corporate logic, I doubt that we can expect a change for the better.

Bioware started out as a company of enthusiasts who believed that if they provided excellent games, a market would be found for that product. And they were right.
But their first priority was creating excellent games, not maximizing sales. (Not that they did NOT want to sell as many copies as possible, but you could tell they were seriously invested in their games.)

Nowadays, though, the demands of the market come first, and the games have to take a backseat in relation to that.
So you lower the difficulty, dumb it all down for a bit - and voila! More sales for you.
And in a way, it really is the consumers' fault, because a considerable demographic WANTS games that are less challenging and less intelligent.

heh, yea look what Blizzard did with WoW.... Don't get me wrong the Dungeon finder was great, it made the pain and agony of trying to find a Dungeon run much much easier.

But the gameplay side... wow...  doesn't take any thought to play the game anymore... and as a DPS'er press like 2-3 buttons at most and you are doing top dps....

I remember Vanilla wow days where you had to CC stuff and THINK about who you need to kill first... and what not... but now? AOE kill spam... and end up seeing a flurry of numbers.

Which IMO im now starting to worry about Tera

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 25 avril 2012 - 08:38 .

[MrGone]

txgoldrush wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Xydorn wrote...

After playing through a second time it is glaringly apparent that many corners were cut. Probably due to time constraints. Not making excuses for Bioware, just pointing out the obvious.

No, it was an artistic decision to provide a better written Shepard.

Sorry but a better wriitten Shep would provide more choices, not less.

Wrong...the more choices you have, the more trade offs you have to give up, the more strain on your resources occur, and there are more things to take into account.

The more choices you have especially in a voice acted game, the shorter the responses, the choppier the voice acting, and the choppier the dialogue. Then you have to take the NPCs response into account, which spreads their dialogue out.

It seems Bioware has put much more into Shepards dialogue with two choices and autodialogue, than with three. DA2 for instance really did struggle with script choppiness and wild tone changes in VA if you mix it up.

Quantity works in sandbox RPGs and games like Planescape Torment which are not VA'd for the most part, does not work in more cinematic RPGs.

That . . . really simply isn't true.

Resources have little bearing when it comes to BioWare and EA, if they wanted, they could work on a game for 25 years with the amount of money they could throw at a project. All that matters there is how much time/money they're willing to spend. It's a choice on their part to either take the time, or do it more quickly.

As for the voice acting itself. Shepard's dialogue is still chopped up line by line and almost all of Shep's response are shorter than those of the people he/she talks to. The only advantages are in flow - the player cannot interrupt it, so the conversations can flow more quickly, and the possiblity of making auto dialogue that reveals aggregate personality traits (as in DA2 and is actually a good idea). But that has little to do with the voice acting itself.

That's determined entirely by the actors and the vocal directors monitoring their performance.

[Ryven]

If I can choose a dialogue option, get up, grab a snack, make a phone call etc, and get back and Shep is still talking, then I am no longer playing the game. I am just watching it. In ME1 and ME2 I at least felt I was actively participating in conversations.

[Jassu1979]

Sorry, but cutting most of the role-playing elements from a role-playing game is NOT an improvement.