231 réponses à ce sujet

[txgoldrush]

richard_rider wrote...

Sure it wasn't perfect, but it, at least, gave me an illusion that I'm making choices, do I want to throw this guy out of the window, or do I want to try to convince him, do I want to help this guy, or not, and more importantly, why?!

Expository dialogue is fun and informative, reading codex entries, not so much. I'd rather run around the citadel and ask people what they want, and more importantly why they want that, not just eavesdrop, like a stalker, and then show up 20 minutes later with ta-dah "I couldn't help but overhear". Yeah, I couldn't help but overhear because I was actively trying to overhear.

"Expository dialogue is fun and informative, reading codex entries, not so much."

Too much exposition dialogue and the character becomes a talking codex...a bad problem in old Bioware games. Telling not showing.

And you eavesdrop on people in ME1 as well like the couple arguing about having the child.

[Jadebaby]

txgoldrush wrote...

No, I perfer Deus Ex Human Revolution....oh wait an RPG with a predetermined protagonist.

Oh wait, the Namless One is predefined too and the Planescape Torment revolves around his history.

An RPG doesn't require a blank slate protagonist.

Face it as well, in ME1 he was written too...he is just stuck between the crappy netherworld between predefined character and open ended character. It tries to be two things at once, doing niether well (maybe at the time of relaease, yes, but not now)

For every person you answer there are another 3 people you don't answer.

Hi Casey, thanks for stopping by!

[txgoldrush]

Eain wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No, I perfer Deus Ex Human Revolution....oh wait an RPG with a predetermined protagonist.

Oh wait, the Namless One is predefined too and the Planescape Torment revolves around his history.

An RPG doesn't require a blank slate protagonist.

Face it as well, in ME1 he was written too...he is just stuck between the crappy netherworld between predefined character and open ended character. It tries to be two things at once, doing niether well (maybe at the time of relaease, yes, but not now)

I enjoy DE:HR as much as I enjoy ME2. But the simple fact of the matter is that if you start a trilogy on the premise that the players can determine who their character is, you end it on the same note. You don't suddenly decide halfway through that you want a predetermined protagonist afterall. ME3 feels like I'm playing Bioware's Shepard, not mine. I find it rather ironic that you have a "Shepard deserves better fans" banner in your sig, considering you apparently don't care about Shepard at all.

The fact is that Shepard is ALREADY PREDETERMINED...case in point, ME1, where Udina locks down the Normandy, there is some despair there regardless of alignment. Or Overlord, where both Paragon and Renegade Shepard find Dr. Archers actions hideous.

Face it, if you don;t want Shepard to be predetermined, then he can't show emotion at all. He'd be a robot, because the format Bioware presents in th eseries does not allow for a character thats not predefined. I wonder why you can't just go on a shooting spree in the Citadel. If you want a very little predetermined character...play Skyrim or Fallout.

[Oransel]

txgoldrush wrote...

Face it as well, in ME1 he was written too...he is just stuck between the crappy netherworld between predefined character and open ended character. It tries to be two things at once, doing niether well (maybe at the time of relaease, yes, but not now)

Nope. Shepard was not pre-written simply because unlike Jensen, he could be of any gender and of any backstory. The only thing pre-written about him is that he/she is Commander serving under Anderson. Unlike Deux Ex HR, choices have far far more different and important meaning than being a jerk/saint in conversation. Sure, Shepard is not completely blank player-written character like Courier from Fallout: Nev Vegas, but certainly there is no canon Shepard or his canon decisions.

[Jadebaby]

txgoldrush wrote...

And you eavesdrop on people in ME1 as well like the couple arguing about having the child.

Oh please! If that was like ME3, there would be a support option A or support option B. Then that would be it, no investigate option at all.

That's what ME3 was missing most of all, Investigation.

[Wes Finley]

txgoldrush wrote...

No, sacrificed in the name of BETTER written protagonists, better voice acting, and far more organic conversations....

Face it, the dialogue wheel forced the writers to write multiple dialogue for almost every line, which in turn waters down the QUALITY of the dialogue.

Stopped reading here.

If you honestly believe this tripe, GTFO now.

I've seen the golden paradise of quality AND quantity that you seem to think can't coexist.

PROTIP: It's in ME1/2, as well as most other RPG's worth their salt. Granted, those other are perhaps less ambitious than Mass Effect about those dialogue choices, but they didn't stake their success on that mechanic.

Mass Effect 1 was built on that ****. It's why everyone can complain about the Mako, and combat, and everything else, but still lined up to pay for ME3.

Ironically, we got perhaps the smoothest gunplay of the series, at the cost of gimping the mechanic the series was built on. The thing that defined this series, stood it apart amongst peers in the genre.

In simple terms, they dun' goof'd.

[Wes Finley]

txgoldrush wrote...

The fact is that Shepard is ALREADY PREDETERMINED...case in point, ME1, where Udina locks down the Normandy, there is some despair there regardless of alignment. Or Overlord, where both Paragon and Renegade Shepard find Dr. Archers actions hideous.

One of these is a DLC mission that was kinda meh to begin with, and the other I don't see any need to justify at all. "Commander Shepard flying around in the Normandy" is the whole point of the game, and the reaction to being backstabbed by Udina and grounded is totally natural for any incarnation of Shepard, regardless of the particular details of a given playthrough.

Try again.

[txgoldrush]

Oransel wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Face it as well, in ME1 he was written too...he is just stuck between the crappy netherworld between predefined character and open ended character. It tries to be two things at once, doing niether well (maybe at the time of relaease, yes, but not now)

Nope. Shepard was not pre-written simply because unlike Jensen, he could be of any gender and of any backstory. The only thing pre-written about him is that he/she is Commander serving under Anderson. Unlike Deux Ex HR, choices have far far more different and important meaning than being a jerk/saint in conversation. Sure, Shepard is not completely blank player-written character like Courier from Fallout: Nev Vegas, but certainly there is no canon Shepard or his canon decisions.

No, Deus Ex HR is better...because it realizes that choices matter more than some dumb system where you can rack up jerk points for being a jerk to everyone you meet to try and "define" your Shep who has the clash of trying to be both predetermined and open ended.

Hawke was the same way....and people complained.

[txgoldrush]

Wes Finley wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

The fact is that Shepard is ALREADY PREDETERMINED...case in point, ME1, where Udina locks down the Normandy, there is some despair there regardless of alignment. Or Overlord, where both Paragon and Renegade Shepard find Dr. Archers actions hideous.

One of these is a DLC mission that was kinda meh to begin with, and the other I don't see any need to justify at all. "Commander Shepard flying around in the Normandy" is the whole point of the game, and the reaction to being backstabbed by Udina and grounded is totally natural for any incarnation of Shepard, regardless of the particular details of a given playthrough.

Try again.

No, the DLC mission was acclaimed especially the ending...try again.

And wow...double standards...so its okay to have a predetermined reaction in mE1 but ME3 can't do it? I can easily say that the fall of earth and the fall of thessia is totally natural for any incarnation of Shepard as well...PROTIP: recognize how ME3 Renegade Shep hides his demons in conversations you are given....you can brush them off.

[txgoldrush]

Wes Finley wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No, sacrificed in the name of BETTER written protagonists, better voice acting, and far more organic conversations....

Face it, the dialogue wheel forced the writers to write multiple dialogue for almost every line, which in turn waters down the QUALITY of the dialogue.

Stopped reading here.

If you honestly believe this tripe, GTFO now.

I've seen the golden paradise of quality AND quantity that you seem to think can't coexist.

PROTIP: It's in ME1/2, as well as most other RPG's worth their salt. Granted, those other are perhaps less ambitious than Mass Effect about those dialogue choices, but they didn't stake their success on that mechanic.

Mass Effect 1 was built on that ****. It's why everyone can complain about the Mako, and combat, and everything else, but still lined up to pay for ME3.

Ironically, we got perhaps the smoothest gunplay of the series, at the cost of gimping the mechanic the series was built on. The thing that defined this series, stood it apart amongst peers in the genre.

In simple terms, they dun' goof'd.

And what golden paradise is that, certainly not a voice acted heavy game.....in fact, only Black Isle games can make this claim.

And what if this mechanic had flaws...face it, it was gimp...ME1 and ME2 where no where near this golden paradise, especially Renegade Shepard.

[Wes Finley]

txgoldrush wrote...

No, the DLC mission was acclaimed especially the ending...try again.

By whom? Not for the dialogue, squaddies got none on that DLC. That's a big hint right there.

And wow...double standards...so its okay to have a predetermined reaction in mE1 but ME3 can't do it? I can easily say that the fall of earth and the fall of thessia is totally natural for any incarnation of Shepard as well...PROTIP: recognize how ME3 Renegade Shep hides his demons in conversations you are given....you can brush them off.

Oh hey, I think you misunderstood my issue with your arguement. You seem to think that because I don't mind a predetermined stance for a particular story twist in ME1, I should be in favor of Mass Effect 3's watered down EITHER/OR imitation... throughout the majority of the game.

That's not the case.

[txgoldrush]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

And you eavesdrop on people in ME1 as well like the couple arguing about having the child.

Oh please! If that was like ME3, there would be a support option A or support option B. Then that would be it, no investigate option at all.

That's what ME3 was missing most of all, Investigation.

No, I saw plenty of investigation wheels......for example, conversations with Bailey have this, so do Anderson and Hackett, so does Ashley in the hospital, etc.

The only part where I wished their was an investigation wheel was the Catalyst.

[Wes Finley]

txgoldrush wrote...

And what if this mechanic had flaws...face it, it was gimp...ME1 and ME2 where no where near this golden paradise, especially Renegade Shepard.

Wow, Shepard DOES need better fans. They certainly worked well enough to keep me entertained, and they worked well enough to make me excited about ME3, and they were noticably abesent from ME3, such that I feel it detracted from the experience.

If you didn't like 'em... I honestly am not compelled to convince you that you should. I think if that gameplay mechanic does not appeal to you, than I can certainly understand how you might enjoy ME3 much more than it's predecessors, though I would question if you understand how there came to be a 3rd installment to this franchise.

[Kreid]

The only thing I really feel lacking was the neutral option, but, what was the point?Few people chose it and with the Paragon/Rengade system in ME2 and ME3 it was nonsensical since it actually damaged you.

There is more auto-dialogue and a bit few investigate options but all in all I don't think it was so much of a big deal, at least Shepard had a little bit of soul instead of being just a brick.

Modifié par Creid-X, 25 avril 2012 - 10:15 .

[txgoldrush]

Wes Finley wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No, the DLC mission was acclaimed especially the ending...try again.

By whom? Not for the dialogue, squaddies got none on that DLC. That's a big hint right there.

And wow...double standards...so its okay to have a predetermined reaction in mE1 but ME3 can't do it? I can easily say that the fall of earth and the fall of thessia is totally natural for any incarnation of Shepard as well...PROTIP: recognize how ME3 Renegade Shep hides his demons in conversations you are given....you can brush them off.

Oh hey, I think you misunderstood my issue with your arguement. You seem to think that because I don't mind a predetermined stance for a particular story twist in ME1, I should be in favor of Mass Effect 3's watered down EITHER/OR imitation... throughout the majority of the game.

That's not the case.

Could it be, the emotional plotline and finale? Overlord was well recieved by the press and the fanbase...try again

No I didn't misunderstand...you want double standards. Plain and simple.

[Wes Finley]

txgoldrush wrote...

No, I saw plenty of investigation wheels......for example, conversations with Bailey have this, so do Anderson and Hackett, so does Ashley in the hospital, etc.

ie. Major characters, at major forks in the story.

Still barely there.

[txgoldrush]

Creid-X wrote...

The only thing I really feel lacking was the neutral option, but, what was the point?Few people chose it and with the Paragon/Rengade system in ME2 and ME3 it was nonsensical since it actually damaged you.

There is more auto-dialogue and a bit few investigate options but all in all I don't think it was so much of a big deal, at least Shepard had a little bit of soul instead of being just a brick.

You mean ME1 and ME2....ME3 fixed that problem, charm and intimidate go by reputation so you can play Shep however you want him. Nuetral characters hurt you in the first two games.

Yep, instead of being robotic like the first game and somewhat in the second, he or she haso the soul a protagonist needs in a story like this. And really Shep's soul helps the other characters as well, like Garrus.

[Oransel]

txgoldrush wrote...

No, Deus Ex HR is better...because it realizes that choices matter more than some dumb system where you can rack up jerk points for being a jerk to everyone you meet to try and "define" your Shep who has the clash of trying to be both predetermined and open ended.

Hawke was the same way....and people complained.

Wow, just wow. You are really good in trolling people, but still, your logic is flawed. Deus Ex is linear RPG with some variables and was never described as non-linear. ME 1 and ME 2 were non-linear RPG's with some pre-determined situations. ME3 changes the path suddenly and that's where the problem is. If I want to play linear game, I'll go with Deus Ex and won't complain about it being linear. If I want to play non-linear game, I would go with Mass Effect. That's why people are dissapointed when the game they wanted to play became something entirely different.

[wright1978]

Eain wrote...

I enjoy DE:HR as much as I enjoy ME2. But the simple fact of the matter is that if you start a trilogy on the premise that the players can determine who their character is, you end it on the same note. You don't suddenly decide halfway through that you want a predetermined protagonist afterall. ME3 feels like I'm playing Bioware's Shepard, not mine. I find it rather ironic that you have a "Shepard deserves better fans" banner in your sig, considering you apparently don't care about Shepard at all.

yeah pretty much this. if it was a new IP or a new game within the franchise then i may not like it but at least i wouldn't feel like they yanked my Shep off me and handed me their canon shep while claiming that it was still my shep.

[txgoldrush]

Wes Finley wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No, I saw plenty of investigation wheels......for example, conversations with Bailey have this, so do Anderson and Hackett, so does Ashley in the hospital, etc.

ie. Major characters, at major forks in the story.

Still barely there.

Ashley and Kaiden have this, James has this, EDI has this, Liara has one....its to establish what they did before ME3. Garrus an dTali don;t need them.

And really, it is lazy for the characters to try and flesh out everything the plot is supposed to flesh out, characters are to help, not do all the work. Bioware is bad when ti comes to turning their characters into talking codexes, more so in older games than the new ones.

[Wes Finley]

txgoldrush wrote...

Could it be, the emotional plotline and finale? Overlord was well recieved by the press and the fanbase...try again

Certainly not as well as Shadow Broker, which made much better use of dialogue to express the characters and engage the player. Overlord was fair, par for DLC. LotSB was GOLDEN, and it's the sort of thing I was hoping Bioware would aspire to, rather than mediocrity.

No I didn't misunderstand...you want double standards. Plain and simple.

Double standard? I want ME3 to utilize the dialogue wheel in the same fashion it's predecessors did. Try again.

[Wes Finley]

txgoldrush wrote...

Ashley and Kaiden have this, James has this, EDI has this, Liara has one....its to establish what they did before ME3. Garrus an dTali don;t need them.

All major characters, you'll notice, and Garrus/Tali are excluded due to that whole "could be dead" stigma. Nice.

Hell, Liara is an LI and central to driving the plot with the Crucible forward. Come on.

And really, it is lazy for the characters to try and flesh out everything the plot is supposed to flesh out, characters are to help, not do all the work. Bioware is bad when ti comes to turning their characters into talking codexes, more so in older games than the new ones.

You would prefer the plot be relayed by... ghost children crawling out of machines?

Character interaction is the whole point.

Modifié par Wes Finley, 25 avril 2012 - 10:26 .

[txgoldrush]

Oransel wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No, Deus Ex HR is better...because it realizes that choices matter more than some dumb system where you can rack up jerk points for being a jerk to everyone you meet to try and "define" your Shep who has the clash of trying to be both predetermined and open ended.

Hawke was the same way....and people complained.

Wow, just wow. You are really good in trolling people, but still, your logic is flawed. Deus Ex is linear RPG with some variables and was never described as non-linear. ME 1 and ME 2 were non-linear RPG's with some pre-determined situations. ME3 changes the path suddenly and that's where the problem is. If I want to play linear game, I'll go with Deus Ex and won't complain about it being linear. If I want to play non-linear game, I would go with Mass Effect. That's why people are dissapointed when the game they wanted to play became something entirely different.

And you do not except the trade off linearity brings...linear plots are far more focused than non linear ones. ME3 HAS to close the series, so it has to be more linear. I wonder why ME2 had a weak main plot, maybe because it is too non linear. The more non linear the story gets the more focused is lost.

You just are not excepting tradeoffs...stop being narrowminded. The problem is not the game, the problem is you.

[Oransel]

txgoldrush wrote...

Ashley and Kaiden have this, James has this, EDI has this, Liara has one....its to establish what they did before ME3. Garrus an dTali don;t need them.

And really, it is lazy for the characters to try and flesh out everything the plot is supposed to flesh out, characters are to help, not do all the work. Bioware is bad when ti comes to turning their characters into talking codexes, more so in older games than the new ones.

Wrong again. Garrus and others are not player-written protagonists, there are different standards for SHepard and for other characters.

I see that you are not used to non-linear thinking. Sorry. You would be much better with books, movies, TV-series or linear games. If you can't tolerate the idea that each player has it's own story, maybe you should not play this game and tell everyone that they play wrong?

P.S. My player-written Shep from first games is much less robotical than Bioware's ME3 auto-Shep. 

[TookYoCookies]

Lack of dialogue options is a step-back in game play for ME, period. Make all the excuses/apologies you want, a lack of choice and involvement only contributes to a disconnect between the player - and the character. That connection was a huge strength in both ME 1 and 2, but a weakness in 3. The lack of a neutral option makes Sheperd seem like hes f*cking bipolar, the heavy dose of auto dialouge causes the player's 'flavor' of sheperd to appear to be out of character from the previous 2 titles, saying this is a good thing is ludacris.

When talking with Cortez you have the option to either:

1. Be nice/supportive, but have Steve interpret it as me hitting on him (and sheperds dialogue sound like thats whats happening, despite no input from player!), despite currently having a hetero-sexual relationship with a woman ON the ship! It goes so far as to force the player to have to shoot him down first hand while dancing at a night club in order to avoid a relationship. Straight dudes do that right? Dance together at nightclubs? yup.

2. Be a huge d*ck/dont give a f*ck, other than being supportive(flirty) the only other option is to basically tell him to quit being a p*ssy, and stop crying crying in the g*d dam shuttle bay, while reminding him his dumb*ss husband is dead and its his fault.

3. *does not exist*


So whait.... What???? thats good? The only choice the player is given is the ability to decide whether Sheperd's emotional roller coaster goes up or down, never in between. Sounds like a manic depressant to me, not a well written character.