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Dialogue wheels - where have they gone?


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#126
txgoldrush

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Oransel wrote...

Please stop arguing with txgoldrush, it's just a trolling. Sadly, BSN forums are heaven for trolls nowadays, largest concentration of really really angry people with a justified cause, I have never seen on any forums.


Or the fact is that people here want to whine about everything without considering that people may have liked the game, its changes, or even the ending (which I don't really like)...so people like me come in and give them the truth.

This forum has become whiner and whiner with each game released.

#127
oblivionenss

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txgoldrush wrote...



And then people whine about how its not changing the ending...DEAL WITH  IT


Yes, we should deal with it and everyone that didn't like it would just leave and stop buy stop buy from BIOWARE.

Wonder how long they would survive.....

#128
Nightdragon8

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txgoldrush wrote...
Face it, it doesn't have to be the same....stop trying to force Bioware into your narrow views or formula on what their games should be.


Doesn't that Road go both ways you want less choices?? your saying that less choices should be fine, when there previous games where that way, and us gamers where completly fine with it?? KotR that was dialoge every sentence.

Guess what Great reviews, I loved the game, I even bought it on steam not hat long ago, (i played from a friends xbox before) DA:O Loved the game, guess what, choices every sentence, Great game, good reviews. DA:Awakening, mixed reviews, not alot of choices in convos,  no interaction between people unless the quest allowed you to. oh maybe at home base but even then it was really limited. Then the other small DLC got worse, Witch Hunt imo didn't mind it, added alittle nice touch to the story, and let people who liked Morigan able to (SPIOLERS!!!!) go off with her or kill her or let her go.

DA2 same style as DA: Awakening. I wasn't a fan but it was OK mixed reveiws, got alot of sales due to DA:O following.  DA2 DLC it was on par with DA2 Vanilla. But it felt lacking in getting connected to the Characters. Even as a movie didn't feel conected as much as I could have been.

ME1 Alot of choices, get time to get to know the people around you, ME2 surpize start, the whole "rebuild" thing reminded me of the Million Dollor man, and I still can't get it out of my head when I watch that part.

Still had ME1 feel with the dialoge cause you know you could talk to people. With the DLC characters with 0 Dialoge with them outside of mission kinda sad.

ME3 and the lack of dialoge most of the time, just meh, and when your VS came back on board I was thinking "Great get to talk to Ash agian" but NOPE nothing 0 zip nothing. It was like so my LI comes back on board and I dont even get to talk to her?? at all??

So IMO the fact that most of the games that where great and made them there name, suddenly get shafted??? Makes me seriously wonder if there next games will be any good... I mean I am already going to wait a week or 2 or even a month after DA3 comes out to get peoples opionions.

And for any paid DLC for ME3 is going to be a flat out no. Maybe Romance DLC or MAYBE just MAYBE Omega DLC but I will wait for reviews before i slap any of my BWpoints down on that.

#129
oblivionenss

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txgoldrush wrote...

Oransel wrote...

Please stop arguing with txgoldrush, it's just a trolling. Sadly, BSN forums are heaven for trolls nowadays, largest concentration of really really angry people with a justified cause, I have never seen on any forums.


Or the fact is that people here want to whine about everything without considering that people may have liked the game, its changes, or even the ending (which I don't really like)...so people like me come in and give them the truth.

This forum has become whiner and whiner with each game released.


Thruth about what, a bugged and useless ending for a triology is good?

Come down from your high horses.

#130
Wes Finley

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txgoldrush wrote...

Wes Finley wrote...

People hated the game hard enough to get a free DLC to fix it.

Not even Duke Nukem Forever got that much hate.



And then people whine about how its not changing the ending...DEAL WITH  IT


But they'll still get it because it's free, because EA knows how badly screwed they'll be if fans stay this pissed.

And when it doesn't change anything, people will stay pissed, and not buy anymore of these mediocre Bioware games. They'll go under, like Westwood and Bullfrog before them, and EA will have to buy some other company to make these mediocre games you like so much.

Posted Image

...or, y'know, Bioware could take the time to put out quality product, and they wouldn't have to deal with the political ****storm. Everyone wins (mostly).

#131
nitefyre410

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Sometimes... less is more...

#132
Subguy614

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If I want < naturally flowing dialog> or whatever...I'll buy a movie. In a game I want to interact, to PLAY.

Spent way too much time in ME3 just watching. Sad.

#133
Nightdragon8

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You know what txgoldrush. or should i say Texasgoldrush, is that yes you are right, they are allowed to do whatever they want to the story that is there "Right"

But it is our Right as readers to hate it and NEVER buy another product from the author as long as we live, it is ALSO our Right to tell everyone who will listen to us how much we DISLIKE said story.

So really, we can **** and moan as much as we like because WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO SO.

You can try to tell us how we are wrong but, so far it seems you haven't been able to convice anyone that the ending was a 'good' one.

And TX the reason the board has become "whiner and whiner" is becuase the quality of the games has gotten Worse AND Worse. Sorry DA2 was not as good as DA:O plan and simple.

#134
Bocks

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txgoldrush wrote...

kavox wrote...

Sacrificed in the name of online play and easier understanding to newer players.


No, sacrificed in the name of BETTER written protagonists, better voice acting, and far more organic conversations....

Face it, the dialogue wheel forced the writers to write multiple dialogue for almost every line, which in turn waters down the QUALITY of the dialogue.


It's funny because Mass Effect 3's dialogue and writing in general was atrocious and far worse than the other Mass Effects.

The dialogue wheel also breaks up the flow of Meer and Hale because they have to show different tones for each little dialogue option every 3 seconds....the Reneagde is especially bad.


While I do believe that the dialogue wheel has a significant impact on the voice and development of the protagonist, I honestly didn't really care in both Mass Effect 1 or Mass Effect 2. Shepard's character is up to you to develop through your own concepts of what Shepard is like. The game doesn't have to do this for you all the time, and honestly I'd much rather have more dialogue options than just stand staring at my screen whilst Shepard says everything for me. If your Shepard is bi-polar, you should just stop alternating between Renegade and Paragon every line.

Nevermind that the three option system sucked monkey balls...lets see, the generally well written good option, the derp derp nuetral option, and the overplayed Reneagde option. DA2 is even worse with the sarcastic function....


At least they threw the control into the player's hands and didn't streamline the entire conversation. They're also much more prominent, and you can pretty much control every line of Shepard's dialogue. This helps in making Shepard feel more like YOUR character. If Shepard is saying everything for me, I might as well go and watch Star Trek or BSG, because at that point I stop caring about him.

Now for ME3, the Renegade options have been VASTLY improved where not only do they fit the philosophy, flow much better where Shep can alternate between the two without sounding schizophenic or out of character. Instaead of a dumb neutral option and a overplayed and off the mark renegade, we get a far more subtle Renegade dialogue.


Renegade has been improved? Seriously? Backstabbing and murdering all your friends is considered good? I remember when Renegade was "military badass" and not "completely evil monster". But you're talking about the dialogue, and to be honest it isn't better at all. It's just about on par with any of the other ME games. It's really nothing special and pretty much just feels like the Paragon 2 option most of the time.

Seriously fans can't see improvements if it hit them in the nose.....they want interactivity for the sake of interactivity, even if it hurts the games writing and voice acting. Ever heard Hale speak in a soft voice in th efirst two games...nope...could be the autodialogue allowing her to do so in ME3.

Ironically, fans want Bioware to be more like CD Projeckt, well gues what, the Witcher games have limited dialogue options and tons of autodialogue....LOL


Mass Effect is ABOUT interactivity. That's the entire point of the series. YOU shape the story. YOU shape Shepard. YOU have control. Bioware gives you the means to develop it, but ultimately everything regarding the direction of the story is in the player's hands. Mass Effect 3 FAILED to live up to this. It failed in delivering a satisfying conclusion and it failed to please a majority of the fans.

Oh, and if you weren't such a flamboyant, blatant fanboy, you might see that The Witcher (as much as I hate the series) has fantastic dialogue and writing which is, most of the time, FAR superior to ANYTHING in Mass Effect 3. The point isn't that autodialogue improves the quality of the writing, it's just that the writers are incompetent and hence incapable of creating a functional conversation with the present system.

#135
TookYoCookies

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 Auto dialogue improves the writing? lol? star child was well written? lol? 

The Dialogue wheel in Mass Effect gave the player the ability (or atleast the appearance of) to steer the narrative, and interact with NPC's that i had never seen in a game, with a high amount of decisions and variables dependent upon where you decided to take the dialogue. It was innovative, it was what made the game different from anything else, and it was what made the game great. 


This was improved exponentially with the release of Mass Effect 2 and all those prior choices/relationships carried over, giving a level of immersion in a game thats arguably never been done before. Just seeing the causality of your choices come to life was amazing, expanding upon the innovation of the previous game and improving it with paragon/renegade interrupts. Giving the player a more visceral level of interaction in combination with the highly detailed/complex dialogue wheel was f*cking genius. This type of player agency was beyond any other game attempting to do something similar.   


In Mass Effect 3, the combination of Auto Dialogue, and Dissipation of choice on the dialogue wheel, limited that immersion, and limited the direct connection the player had with the narrative that was previously present with Mass Effect 1 and 2.  

Were there predetermined storylines previously in 1 and 2? Yes, absolutely, but injecting the player directly into the process of the story gave us the semblence of ad-libbing. The objectives were set-in-stone in some circumstances, but the way the player had the ability to flesh out the context of the situation was completely in our control. Auto dialogue, and lack of player interaction via the dialogue wheel in Mass Effect 3, took the illusion of player control out of the process, causing a disconnect and halting the suspenison of disbelief. Killing the innovation of the first 2 games ability to fully immerse the player.  

Was the greater part of the plot of the Mass Effect: trilogy linear? Yes. There was a set beginning, and a set (bad)ending. This was predtermined, by the fact that it was a story, stories begin and they end. The difference with Mass Effect's story was that the player had direct control of the syntax of the narrative. In games saints row or GTA, the player is put in a "sandbox" where they can go just about any where and do just about anything code permitting. In Mass Effect the narrative was the sandbox.

Some objectives were set, but the player had direct control of the process of how to go about reaching them, as well as the interaction with variables(NPCs) involved in the journey to the objectives, and actually completing them. 

Mass Effect 3 took away our ability to control the process, not just with missions (which is forgivable given the repaer invasion) but most importantly with interaction with other characters. We were no longer playing the role, we were now an observer. The sandbox was gone, and replaced with a maze. Instead of deciding to go up, down, left or right, we were now pulled along a set path, with set syntax, and given only the occasional choice to go left or right. Essentialy the player was demoted from driver to backseat-driver. This was a terrible degeneration of what was an innovative, and incredibly immersive gameplay mechanic. 

In Mass Effect 3 the dialogue wheel devolved into a bland unoriginal shell of its former self (when it was even present). To say that the dialogue wheel's downgrade and the increase in auto-dialogue some how improved the writing or the narrative, is a naive fallacy. 

Edit for format.

Modifié par TookYoCookies, 25 avril 2012 - 02:25 .


#136
TookYoCookies

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bump for FTL forums.

#137
Jaron Oberyn

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Txgoldrush is clearly trolling, stop feeding him and carry on. he's trying to get a rise out of you guys, and is doing a successful job so far.

-Polite

#138
Jadebaby

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txgoldrush wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

And you eavesdrop on people in ME1 as well like the couple arguing about having the child.


Oh please! If that was like ME3, there would be a support option A or support option B. Then that would be it, no investigate option at all.

That's what ME3 was missing most of all, Investigation.


No, I saw plenty of investigation wheels......for example, conversations with Bailey have this, so do Anderson and Hackett, so does Ashley in the hospital, etc.

The only part where I wished their was an investigation wheel was the Catalyst.


So even you can admit it had faults... My my...

Although you stated some points where investigate was present, I think the reveals how very little 'investigate' option there were, if you can count them.

Compare it with the other two games, it doesn't even account for 1/4.

#139
tvman099

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txgoldrush wrote...

Xydorn wrote...

After playing through a second time it is glaringly apparent that many corners were cut. Probably due to time constraints. Not making excuses for Bioware, just pointing out the obvious.


No, it was an artistic decision to provide a better written Shepard.

Shepard is essentially a stand-in for the player. The purpose of the dialogue wheel is to provide a multitude of questions and reactions during conversation to best cover the bases of what most people would want to say. He isn't supposed to have any personality except what the player decides he has. That's why the abundance of auto-dialogue in ME3 and the removal of neutral conversation options is such a point of frustration. It goes against what Shepard is supposed to be.

Modifié par tvman099, 25 avril 2012 - 08:18 .


#140
stormhit

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Is there anyone who would play without asking basically everything on the left side of the dialogue wheel when it's being used for investigation and not a choice? And if that's the case; then what's the point?

#141
Norrax

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kavox wrote...

Sacrificed in the name of online play and easier understanding to newer players.


this

#142
Deltakarma

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South for the Winter.

Surprised no one listened to Eddard Stark... he did say
"Winter Is Coming"

#143
Baihu1983

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Made it feel too much like a video game....and really who wants their video game to feel like a video game?

#144
mauro2222

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It has been taken as hostage by Casey, in the same bunker he's hiding.

Modifié par mauro2222, 25 avril 2012 - 08:46 .


#145
Bill Casey

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Jassu1979 wrote...

Numerous dialogue options were always at the heart of the Mass Effect series: its most distinguishing game mechanic, a feature that defined those games more than any combat.


A lot of times, you could pick different options on the wheel and Shepard would say the exact same thing...
The wheel was pointless in those instances...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 25 avril 2012 - 08:47 .


#146
richard_rider

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Baihu1983 wrote...

Made it feel too much like a video game....and really who wants their video game to feel like a video game?


Boss fights "too video gamey",  full control of your character "too video gamey", what's next interactivity...maybe EA misunderstood what BW was when they bought them, hint: it's not a movie studio.

PS to TX, I'd rather listen to characters and hear their story from their point of view, and not read about it in an email (i.e. Kal'Reeger, that really pissed me off)

Modifié par richard_rider, 25 avril 2012 - 08:49 .


#147
Torrential

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The funny thing is most of the time shepard says and does things that in previous games my renegade shep would never do in auto dialogue. I often sit there and think wth, I just spent 80 hours insulting that guy, now he's shaking hands with him and patting him on the back? Does he have a knife in the other hand?

:) Hopefully my paragon playthrough will fit this newer nicer shepard more.

-edit

Even as far as things like - well I just wiped out 300,000 batarians with no warning, because I've wanted to exterminate their race ever since bring down the sky, and their ME2 antics.

Its okay though when the next one see's me and shakes my hand on the citadel? 0_o that is one understanding terrorist gang member. He even gives me a gun.

Modifié par Torrential, 20 juin 2012 - 01:37 .


#148
wright1978

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Jassu1979 wrote...

Numerous dialogue options were always at the heart of the Mass Effect series: its most distinguishing game mechanic, a feature that defined those games more than any combat.


Yeah, i'd go further and say it was at the heart of Bioware games as a whole. Really can't believe they gutted it and discarded it on the floor like it was nothing.

#149
10K

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The devs listened to their fans. I mean seriously, ME1 fans didn't want elevator rides. So we got loading screens. They didn't want the Mako. So we got the hammer head. In ME 2 they didn't want the hammer head so they ditch planet exploration. There's a bunch of things the fans didn't want and BW catered to them the best they can. Fans are the reason somethings are just not right with ME3. So for now own I'm just going to blame the fans for every flaw I noticed.

Modifié par mosesarose, 20 juin 2012 - 04:21 .


#150
RavenEyry

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kavox wrote...

Sacrificed in the name of online play and easier understanding to newer players.


I really don't get how the lack of dialogue options could be for new players since we were all new when ME1 came out.