How does synthesis break the cycle? What stops the hybrids from producing new pure synthetics?
That the "hybrids" (if they are even that, food for thought) are still part synthetic themselves, they would never harm each other on the misguided basis that one is/isn't alive.
Conflict will always exist, but this time, the anti-thesis won't anhiliate the original thesis.
Think about that for a while.
a.m.p wrote...More importantly. If the catalyst was lying and the crucible was some kind of reaper trap that would help them to win and Shepard killed themselves as the catalyst asket them to, who would get the word out to the next cycle that the crucible is a reaper trap? So far they have time capsules all over the galaxy that tell the next person to find it to immediately start building another crucible. Why isn't Shepard thinking of this very possible scenario?
For all we know, The Catalyst could be Matriarch Aethyta doing a horrible practical joke on Shepard, do we acknowledge the legitimacy of this scenario ? No, it's just speculation.
Could it be a reaper trap ? Who knows, in any case Shepard has to make a decision, either he chooses what The Catalyst offers, or he lets The Reapers destroy Hackett's fleets, time is of the essence, and those are the three options available.
In the end, it's not a reaper trap, The Reapers leave, or are destroyed, so much for a trap that all it does best is get you killed.
Modifié par feliciano2040, 26 avril 2012 - 03:35 .
]As I understand you, you're basically saying this: if the crucible is a reaper trap that when activated helps reapers win instantly instead of winning through a long drawn out war, we should activate it anyway on the off chance it's not a trap and the absolutely ridiculous explanation of it that we've been given is true.
Let's see what happens then. Worst case scenario for both options:
1) We activate it, Shepard dies, we lose right there, reapers quickly mop everything up, the reaping is successful. 50000 years later the next cycle stumbles into Liara's time capsule that tells them: here's a huge device that can kill reapers. You should divert all your resources from building more ships and weapons to building that thing like we did and it'll totally save you. They do just that, that weakens them, if they survive long enough to activate it, it kills them, the cycle repeats.
2) We don't activate it. We fight a long drawn out war. Let's follow your assumption that we lose (I should probably point out that I'm in the 'give me back the retconned lore, I can win that' camp, but still, let's say we lose). The time bought allows to come up with a plan B to give a chance for the next cycle - like the protheans did for us. Most importantly - if Shepard survives long enough to at least get out a message about the starchild, the fact that the crucible is a reaper trap could be put into the warning for the next cycle, so they don't build it and instead build ships and weapons, thus buying them a chance for a conventional victory.
These are simple enough considerations that should be going through Shepard's head as they talk to the starchild.
Assuming the Reapers wont find out about these time capsuals through moles/when they're cleaning up and assuming the next cycles will randomly stumble upon them a conventional victory isn't possible, the Reapers are just too numerous and powerful, and if the Crucible is a trap it makes no difference, everyone will die, and everyone will die if Shepard does nothing.
There will be no fighting for the next races, the Reapers will come through the Citadel and turn off all the relays as usual, and seeing as though "when" is impossible to predict the next cycles will meet the same fate.
That the "hybrids" (if they are even that, food for thought) are still part synthetic themselves, they would never harm each other on the misguided basis that one is/isn't alive.
Nope.gif. There'll always be elitism, as even though real diversity is gone, the personalities were not rewritten. It would take generations to get rid of the "us and them". Which would be a fun premise for an RPG, but that RPG would no longer be Mass Effect.
For all we know, The Catalyst could be Matriarch Aethyta doing a horrible practical joke on Shepard, do we acknowledge the legitimacy of this scenario ? No, it's just speculation.
Wouldn't put it past that half-Krogan =) I knew she looked at me funny because my Shep banged her daughter...
Our_Last_Scene wrote... Assuming the Reapers wont find out about these time capsuals through moles/when they're cleaning up and assuming the next cycles will randomly stumble upon them a conventional victory isn't possible, the Reapers are just too numerous and powerful, and if the Crucible is a trap it makes no difference, everyone will die, and everyone will die if Shepard does nothing.
There will be no fighting for the next races, the Reapers will come through the Citadel and turn off all the relays as usual, and seeing as though "when" is impossible to predict the next cycles will meet the same fate.
So. That means that choosing the options requires Shepard to believe that never, ever, no matter how many cycles pass and what happens in between them, no matter what civilizations rise and how strong they can be, no matter what plans are set in motion and what information passed on between the cycles, never ever will organic life be able to beat the reapers on their own.
Well. My Shepard does not believe that.
Why will there be no fighting for the next cycle? Why can't we, the cycle that got the closest to beating them, do the same thing that the protheans did for us and ensure that for the next cycle the trap won't work either? (and I don't mean just literally repeating the prothean hack. I mean applying brains to the problem and coming up with a solution)
@ feliciano2040 We as players know that it's not a trap, just terrible writing and game design. Shepard doesn't know that. They have only what they are told and what they see around them to make conclusions. The first conclusion that springs to my Shepard's mind is that it's a trap.
See, matriarch Aethyta and practical jokes are harmless. A very possible reaper trap is potentially extremely harmful. Why would Shepard risk inflicting even more harm on their allies and possibly on all future cycles (by ensuring they too get caught into the same trap)?
Why can't I at least contact Hackett, tell the fleet to get the hell out, tell them that if the reapers don't die when I shoot that pipe to make sure the next cycles does not waste resources on the crucible and then try shooting the pipe? Why am I not allowed to act upon my interpretation of the situation?
Our_Last_Scene wrote... Assuming the Reapers wont find out about these time capsuals through moles/when they're cleaning up and assuming the next cycles will randomly stumble upon them a conventional victory isn't possible, the Reapers are just too numerous and powerful, and if the Crucible is a trap it makes no difference, everyone will die, and everyone will die if Shepard does nothing.
There will be no fighting for the next races, the Reapers will come through the Citadel and turn off all the relays as usual, and seeing as though "when" is impossible to predict the next cycles will meet the same fate.
So. That means that choosing the options requires Shepard to believe that never, ever, no matter how many cycles pass and what happens in between them, no matter what civilizations rise and how strong they can be, no matter what plans are set in motion and what information passed on between the cycles, never ever will organic life be able to beat the reapers on their own.
Well. My Shepard does not believe that.
Why will there be no fighting for the next cycle? Why can't we, the cycle that got the closest to beating them, do the same thing that the protheans did for us and ensure that for the next cycle the trap won't work either? (and I don't mean just literally repeating the prothean hack. I mean applying brains to the problem and coming up with a solution)
1. Ensure some limited amount of people survive the reaping. We have cryonics and long-lived species. Wait it out. Protheans managed it with Ilos while being locked up in one cluster. We have the whole galaxy to hide in. 2. Go to the citadel and study it. Find a way to either: a) blow it the hell up move it through relays like reapers did and drop it into a black hole c) destroy the relay control mechanism altogether d) hack the relay control mechanism so the next cycle can use it against reapers. 3. If the reapers found and destroyed the capsules, leave more even more detailed messages and warnings everywhere where the next civilization is likely to appear.
That discounts the fact that apparently we already have enough knowledge to disable the relay control system in such a way that reapers can't even fix it.
So. That means that choosing the options requires Shepard to believe that never, ever, no matter how many cycles pass and what happens in between them, no matter what civilizations rise and how strong they can be, no matter what plans are set in motion and what information passed on between the cycles, never ever will organic life be able to beat the reapers on their own.
Well. My Shepard does not believe that.
Good for you.
Unfortunately, dislike is not grounds for saying something "sucks", you have your right to complain, but so does Bioware to put out any ending they want.
The choices at the ending assumes too much.
Star Child assumes you forgot in the original and first Mass Effect, that you found out that the Reapers designed and created the Citadel. Why? They use it to transport themselves, where they hide in dark space, into the heart of the galaxy to destroy it.
Star Child assumes I have forgotten how I tried to negotiate peace with Sovereign, only to be denied.
Star Child assumes I have forgotten how I tried to do that with Harbinger. He denied it as well.
Star Child assumes that peace will work, with beings who have resisted it through the previous two installments. Which poses the question on how can you have peace with someone who actively seeks out your demise.
Star Child assumes my Paragon Shepard was able to broker peace between the Geth and Quarians (with the Paragon choices I made in ME2, the only way I could broker peace was to sacrifice the crew for the admiral, and just couldn't do it). As it stands, there's virtually little to no Geth left. That leaves EDI. I already gave up one squad mate to be successful on Virmire, and you know what? I'll do that too, for a guarantee the Reapers are stopped this cycle. My Shepard won't be alive in 50,000 years, but you can make sure those in the future will know, and can plan accordingly.
1. Ensure some limited amount of people survive the reaping. We have cryonics and long-lived species. Wait it out. Protheans managed it with Ilos while being locked up in one cluster. We have the whole galaxy to hide in. 2. Go to the citadel and study it. Find a way to either: a) blow it the hell up move it through relays like reapers did and drop it into a black hole c) destroy the relay control mechanism altogether d) hack the relay control mechanism so the next cycle can use it against reapers. 3. If the reapers found and destroyed the capsules, leave more even more detailed messages and warnings everywhere where the next civilization is likely to appear.
That discounts the fact that apparently we already have enough knowledge to disable the relay control system in such a way that reapers can't even fix it.
So in other words, wait it out and hope no indoctrinated people betray you and your power source is better than the more advanced Protheans, then:
Go to the Citadel and hope the Reapers, who knew about things such as Drell numbers, Sovereign's design flaw and Shepard despite being in dark space, aren't instantly alerted by the Keepers that a race has come aboard the Citadel. Or don't notice said race trying to destroy it or move it, or don't have any other precautions in place to stop another Keeper incident from happening and therefore don't notice the control mechanism being tampered with/destroyed.
Go to the Citadel and hope the Reapers, who knew about things such as <...>
Well, the Reapers completely missed the Prothean Conduit (AFAIK, Saren learned of it on his own) and the Keeper tampering, so... There's a better than even chance this will work. Oh, and slaughtering the Keepers is a viable alternative. See how they like THAT.
Go to the Citadel and hope the Reapers, who knew about things such as <...>
Well, the Reapers completely missed the Prothean Conduit (AFAIK, Saren learned of it on his own) and the Keeper tampering, so... There's a better than even chance this will work. Oh, and slaughtering the Keepers is a viable alternative. See how they like THAT.
You can't slaughter the Keepers, they're reproduced from within the Citadel, you'd need to somehow find it and destroy it. And hope the Keepers don't alert the Reapers to this as well, or the Reapers don't have any precautions in place that tells them a crucial element in their plan has been destroyed, and also hope they haven't put any extra precautions in place to stop what the Protheans did from happening again. Because you know, it worked once surely they'll fall for it again.
So. That means that choosing the options requires Shepard to believe that never, ever, no matter how many cycles pass and what happens in between them, no matter what civilizations rise and how strong they can be, no matter what plans are set in motion and what information passed on between the cycles, never ever will organic life be able to beat the reapers on their own.
Well. My Shepard does not believe that.
Good for you.
Unfortunately, dislike is not grounds for saying something "sucks", you have your right to complain, but so does Bioware to put out any ending they want.
Which I do not dispute. The greatest mystery for me is what the ending they want was supposed to mean. What is that vision they keep referring to? What is the message? If it's what outlined above - the futility of resisting big space squids that are killing you, then my desired fourth option would mess it up. If however it's not about futility and instead about unity, hope, unbreaking resolve and so on, then how the hell would a costly victory through your own hard fought for forces undermine it?
Go to the Citadel and hope the Reapers, who knew about things such as <...>
Well, the Reapers completely missed the Prothean Conduit (AFAIK, Saren learned of it on his own) and the Keeper tampering, so... There's a better than even chance this will work. Oh, and slaughtering the Keepers is a viable alternative. See how they like THAT.
You can't slaughter the Keepers, they're reproduced from within the Citadel, you'd need to somehow find it and destroy it. And hope the Keepers don't alert the Reapers to this as well, or the Reapers don't have any precautions in place that tells them a crucial element in their plan has been destroyed, and also hope they haven't put any extra precautions in place to stop what the Protheans did from happening again. Because you know, it worked once surely they'll fall for it again.
The keepers did not alert the reapers to the prothean presence on the citadel. Because as far as I remeber, the protheans first got to the citadel and then applied their hack, not the other way around.
As for falling for that twice - the geth did fall for the no windows thing twice, didn't they? Before we begin talking about how immensly smarter the reapers are, I'd like to point out that if we assume the crucible isn't a trap, then it follows that reapers are incapable of fixing their own sabotaged tech - the relay control mechanism.
And all these consequences are something we can predict and address. By instead first making sure the warning (with detailed instructions about the citadel and the relay control system) gets to the next cycle, and then risking the trip to the citadel itself.
Go to the Citadel and hope the Reapers, who knew about things such as <...>
Well, the Reapers completely missed the Prothean Conduit (AFAIK, Saren learned of it on his own) and the Keeper tampering, so... There's a better than even chance this will work. Oh, and slaughtering the Keepers is a viable alternative. See how they like THAT.
You can't slaughter the Keepers, they're reproduced from within the Citadel, you'd need to somehow find it and destroy it. And hope the Keepers don't alert the Reapers to this as well, or the Reapers don't have any precautions in place that tells them a crucial element in their plan has been destroyed, and also hope they haven't put any extra precautions in place to stop what the Protheans did from happening again. Because you know, it worked once surely they'll fall for it again.
The keepers did not alert the reapers to the prothean presence on the citadel. Because as far as I remeber, the protheans first got to the citadel and then applied their hack, not the other way around.
As for falling for that twice - the geth did fall for the no windows thing twice, didn't they? Before we begin talking about how immensly smarter the reapers are, I'd like to point out that if we assume the crucible isn't a trap, then it follows that reapers are incapable of fixing their own sabotaged tech - the relay control mechanism.
And all these consequences are something we can predict and address. By instead first making sure the warning (with detailed instructions about the citadel and the relay control system) gets to the next cycle, and then risking the trip to the citadel itself.
Where are you getting this information that they Reapers can't fix the relay control mechanism from?
An Open Letter to Bioware Concerning the End of Mass Effect 3
I think that the Mass Effect series is one of the best ever made, and seeing as I have played videogames since 1986 I have a significant pool of comparison. Beyond the obvious care and skill that went into the production of every Mass Effect game, they also presented a player with one of the most interesting and comprehensive venues for making meaningful decision in a game, and watching how the consequences of those decisions reverberate for dozens of hours of game play. Just seeing how the choices I made with Commander Shepard were carried over from one game to the next provided a personalized experience that made me and other players feel not just that we were on a journey with the game’s hero but that we were the game’s hero. It was my choice as a player that earned the loyalty of my allies, that consigned friends and comrades to victory or death, and that built or destroyed relationships.
It is because I have enjoyed Mass Effect so much that I must say that I am disappointed with how the series ends. My disappointment stems from the abandonment of meaningful player agency as Mass Effect 3 comes to its conclusion. This same player agency was the most unique and defining characteristic of the Mass Effect series, and to abruptly turn away from it at the end and instead construct a “what’s-behind-door-number-three” approach is a use of the letter of the law to violate the spirit of the law. The player still gets to choose one of three similar paths at the end, but that those three choices are in virtually no way contingent upon the choices players made previously. As noted above, this continuity of player choice has been the hallmark of the Mass Effect games.
This last second turn from what was obviously a core design principle not only marred an otherwise stellar game but also damaged my faith that Bioware’s other franchises with similar player agency mechanics will similarly run to the same fault. At PAX East, members of the design team from Dragon Age 3 proclaimed that “decision will matter: Yes”[1]. How can I be asked to believe this, however, when the Mass Effect series, which prided itself on the importance of player choices in the game, undercut this very principle at the end? Additionally, I cannot accept the premise that Dragon Age 3 will avoid this mistake when Bioware currently has the chance to alter the conclusion of Mass Effect 3 to keep it in line with its own design principle, but instead has made a lackluster statement that the Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut DLC will only be “creating additional cinematics and epilogue scenes to the existing ending sequences”[2]. Granted, this offer is better than nothing, but it still does not address the concerns about respecting the player’s decisions. This respect Bioware invites by having made player agency one of its core design ideas. I cannot see how such a skilled team of game developers would have a problem modifying the end of Mass Effect 3 at least to the point where bringing the vast majority of the war assets to the final conflict could open a fourth choice at the end where Shepard rejects the flawed logic and choices presented by the catalyst and decides to trust in the coalition he’s help build to actually win against the Reapers even if it means sustaining heavy losses. Such an option would at least be a return to the concept of meaningful player action throughout the game because that choices would be dependent upon the choice made by the player concerning of much effort he or she put into building up the war assets to defeat the Reapers. The “Synthesis” ending is in the same vein, but ultimately fails because it hinges upon agreeing with the Catalyst, not in the player deciding to stand of fall on his or her own choices.
I understand what Bioware said about their Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut, but I implore them to take this opportunity to change their stance. The fact that this DLC will be free is a gift, and in all honesty I would have paid for it. I will similarly purchase forthcoming Mass Effect DLC because the game is so enjoyable. That being said, if the Extended Cut does not address my concerns about the deterioration of meaningful player agency, then I will have no faith that Bioware’s other title will avoid the same pitfall. I will not accept promises that my choices will matter if it is made clear that my in-game decisions will be undermined. To that end, if the Extended Cut does not show a return to meaningful player agency then I will not purchase or play Dragon Age 3. Since I stated that you have and will have my monetary support for Mass Effect 3, the most effect way I would have to register my complaint would be to not provide that same support for Dragon Age 3.
I want to be clear in that I am not encouraging a boycott; other people can best decide who to spend their own money. I am not even looking for an apology. I know you love your game with at least as much fervor as the players, and it is in that mutual love for the Mass Effect series that I ask for you to respect the very spirit of the work you created and instill the players’ choices with the same weight that made us all fans of the work in the first place.
Sincerely,
Tempest81
[1] Gamespot. “Dragon Age Gets Some New Digs at PAX East 2012.” . 4-11-2012.
I had difficulty choosing any as they all seemed bad to me. I had just told TIM that control was wrong, so I couldn't pick that option, plus the cycle of synthetic wars could begin again. After helping EDI get together with Joker, allowing Legion to make the Geth alive with Reaper code and having them work with the Quarians I couldnt kill them and EDI. So destroy was out of the question. So even though synthesis forced my Sheps will and dna and synthetic components(by being absorbed into the crucible beam) on the galaxy I had to choose that one. The other option was to wait and the crucible is destroyed and you get a critical mission failure. I probably should have let Marauder Shields shoot my Shep in the face that way he would have stayed true to his character and died fighting.
While the allied fleets attack Cronos station, the reapers finally take the citadel. Then they, presumably through the relay network, move it to Earth. Then we are supposed to follow them there and the galaxy map shows us this: ../../..//uploads_user/3737000/3736571/199327.jpg Two possible interpretations:
1) They disabled all the relays except the route to Sol via Exodus. Which they would only do if they wanted the crucible be brought to Earth, which means we really, really need Admiral Ackbar to clarify this situation.
2) They didn’t disable the relay network and the map simply does not let us fly around the galaxy and do more sidequests.
Let’s look at that last possibility. It is sort of implied (more like glossed over) that the relay control mechanism was sabotaged after ME1. A question arises. Why couldn’t they fix their own tech? Are they that dumb? The most reasonable answer so far is that to do that they would have to get inside the citadel which was closed when they took it.
So, I, again, decided to replay that part and check this. Here is what I saw. No screenshot here, this needs to be seen in motion. Also, the bik file containing this is called Cat004_Cit_Close.bik.
No. It wasn’t always closed. It was at some point opened, then it was closed again, then the conduit was turned on. When the fleets were going to Sol the reapers were in full control of the citadel. The Charon relay was open. Why?
1) Back to Admiral Ackbar 2) They are dumb and cannot fix their own tech. 3) Fixing this takes time, they didn’t have time to fix it. Still dumb but a little less so. Brings up the question of why didn’t they start with taking the citadel and then working on fixing the sabotage without a huge fleet attacking them. So it’s actually even dumber, just in a different way.
red = wipe out an entire species
control = allow the reapers to exist(unless u can control them to die)
synthesis = corrupt life, force change and achieve nothing.
So what you're saying is if you can't fix your old technolgy you can't make a new one that's harder to sabotage or remake the old one but with new precautions in place that'll alert you when it's sabotaged?
Screw shephard we need a pedefile hero to scare starbrat into submission
Turn off the reapers or Mickey here is gonna give you a pink sock you little bi**h!!!
The way I see it, Shepard basically has five options after encountering the Catalyst. Unfortunately, we only get to choose from three. And they happen to be the three I least want to pick.
-The three options given by the Catalyst. I don't want to pick one of these because Shepard has absolutely no reason to trust the genocidal little maniac.
-Do nothing. Refusing to make a decision and hoping for a conventional victory might not be the best move, but there isn't anything preventing Shepard from doing this. I personally don't think this is the right call, but I fail to see why it isn't an option.
-Call Hackett. We just got done talking with him, so why not call him back up, explain the situation, and tell him to blow the Citadel to hell (let's find out what happens to the Reapers when their controller is destroyed). Again, there is nothing actually stopping Shepard from doing this (even if it didn't work) except the player not being able to choose this option.
I think the last option is the best and the most in character for Commander Shepard. It's just a shame Bioware didn't consider other possible reactions to the Catalyst. Instead, they opted for symbolism at the expense of logic.
So what you're saying is if you can't fix your old technolgy you can't make a new one that's harder to sabotage or remake the old one but with new precautions in place that'll alert you when it's sabotaged?
Well. If they can make new tech that's harder to sabotage that brings us back to the question of why didn't they immediately take the citadel and make a new relay control system and proceed with their usual strategy of divide and conquer. Without loosing all those reapers that were killed over the course of the game while the citadel was in our hands. That's the same number 3 flavor of stupidity.
So I'm saying the ME3 plot requires the reapers be exceptionally dumb, so defending it with the argument that they are incredibly smart and impossible to trick is somewhat illogical.
The statement that a solution to the reaper problem could never be found, period, is the same kind of logic that says that synthetics will eventually kill organics, period.
Retour en haut
move it through relays like reapers did and drop it into a black hole
