472 réponses à ce sujet

[Clayless]

a.m.p wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

-snip-

So what you're saying is if you can't fix your old technolgy you can't make a new one that's harder to sabotage or remake the old one but with new precautions in place that'll alert you when it's sabotaged?

Well. If they can make new tech that's harder to sabotage that brings us back to the question of why didn't they immediately take the citadel and make a new relay control system and proceed with their usual strategy of divide and conquer.

Because the races will just close the indestructable Citadel as soon as they see the Reapers coming?

Asking why the races didn't close it instantly on the other hand is a different question.

[PorcelynDoll]

I didn't like any of them. They bewildered me so much. I wanted to fight not push a button. I never once thought about Control. It's the worst to me. I set out to destroy the Reapers in ME1 for what they have done not become one of them.
Synth seemed yucky. It's what the Reapers wanted all along.
Destroy is what I picked but I really hated it to. I just gave the Geth sentience and united them with the Quarians and now they have to die? If ventboy isn't lying everyone with cybernetics dies too?
Just awful, awful choices.

[a.m.p]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Because the races will just close the indestructable Citadel as soon as they see the Reapers coming?

Asking why the races didn't close it instantly on the other hand is a different question.

So, now everyone on the citadel has to be stupid too. At a very specific point in time, exactly when Shepard goes after cerberus. Because if they fail to close the arms in an attack before that, that would break the plot.
That's a very specific kind of stupid.

Why can't the reapers send a bunch of indoctrinated batarians with all those refugees and make sure the arms aren't closed when they strike? Isn't that how they usually opearte?

Modifié par a.m.p, 26 avril 2012 - 06:14 .

[Clayless]

a.m.p wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Because the races will just close the indestructable Citadel as soon as they see the Reapers coming?

Asking why the races didn't close it instantly on the other hand is a different question.

So, now everyone on the citadel has to be stupid too. At a very specific point in time, exactly when Shepard goes after cerberus. Because if they fail to close the arms in an attack before that, that would break the plot.
That's a very specific kind of stupid.

Why can't the reapers send a bunch of indoctrinated batarians with all those refugees and make sure the arms aren't closed when they strike? Isn't that how they usually opearte?

But the races being stupid isn't a flaw of the Reapers.

Also why would you send Batarians? C-Sec's alarm bells would be going crazy when a random Batarian refugee somehow makes it to the Citadel Tower without an invite, especially when they're under a full Reaper invasion.

Instead the Reapers could indoctrinate a council member and, oh wait.

[Iakus]

I do't want to choose any of the options.

Control and Synthesis are both basically agreeing with the Catalyst's insane troll logic that "the created wil always turn against the creator".  You use an absoloute like that and your argument gets sunk by any exceptions.  And we have two.

Control means Shepard is willing to believe in the inevitability of Singularity, but just doesn't think the time has come yet.  So the Reapers are controlled against the eventuality of turning them loose on synthetics, or eventually coming around to the Catalyst's "solution" and decide to start weed-whacking the galaxy again.

Synthesis is essentially what the Reapers are already doing, only to everyone, everywhere.  "ascending" people to some higher state of being.  the main differnce being sidestepping the smoothie machine.  I can think of few violations worse than rewriting someone at the genetic level.

Destruction, at least, allows Shepard to reject the Catalyst's assertion of the inevitability of galactic death-by-synthetics.  but the Catalyst is also effectively holding all synthetics currently in existence hostage.  Kill the Reapers, kill the geth, EDI, maybe Shepard as well.  Maybe other cyborgs like biotics and quarians too.  

All the choices are horrific.  bad enough to make Shepard the villain of most other stories. 

[Thalador]

Eain wrote...

hosen17 wrote...

Most of us here on the forum, I'd assume.

Well, yeah. But I often see people still talk about the specifics of each ending as though there's some merit to it. I wonder how many people there are that hate the ending but still begrudgingly pick a colour vs people that hate the ending and therefore shut off the game before it even gets there.

I haven't played SP since the day I finished ME3, when I first chose destroy, then reloaded to get control, and then reloaded to do rape-synthesis, because I didn't want to believe that all the endings suck that much. Even if I get to play ME3 and do another/more playthrough(s), I will shut it off before raiding Cronos Station until the EC tries to fix the unfixable.

[a.m.p]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Because the races will just close the indestructable Citadel as soon as they see the Reapers coming?

Asking why the races didn't close it instantly on the other hand is a different question.

So, now everyone on the citadel has to be stupid too. At a very specific point in time, exactly when Shepard goes after cerberus. Because if they fail to close the arms in an attack before that, that would break the plot.
That's a very specific kind of stupid.

Why can't the reapers send a bunch of indoctrinated batarians with all those refugees and make sure the arms aren't closed when they strike? Isn't that how they usually opearte?

But the races being stupid isn't a flaw of the Reapers.

The races being exceptionally stupid and the reapers being exceptionally stupid and everyone else being exceptionally stupid is a flaw of the plot that requires them to be stupid to work. Giving addtional ending options would allow to interpret the plot in a way that wouldn't require all that stupidity, without actually changing much.

Also why would you send Batarians? C-Sec's alarm bells would be going crazy when a random Batarian refugee somehow makes it to the Citadel Tower without an invite, especially when they're under a full Reaper invasion.

Instead the Reapers could indoctrinate a council member and, oh wait.

Oh wait, indeed.
They did something that allowed them to easily take the citadel after several months of war.
They couldn't do the same damn thing a few months later?
If they couldn't, and whatever precautions were put in place kept then from taking the citadel for those months, why are we still talking about them being unbeatable and untrickable and so very smart?

[CapnManx]

Some of you may be over thinking the 'trap' angle.  What if the Citadel was simply bait to draw out the fleets and the Crucible?  Doesn't mean they wanted anyone to board it; why would Harbinger try to destroy the assault force if they did?

Another thing to consider: Shepard isn't some fantasy warrior guided by nothing but his or her own conscience.  Shepard is a soldier of the Alliance, and a Spectre of the Council; his/her sworn duty is to protect humanity and the other Council races.  The Spectre status may be an on again off again political thing; but being a member of the Alliance military is an important part of Shepard's identity (even if you take a full Renegade route).

Ensuring that some people survive is an inadequate solution; Shepard's duty is to protect.  Not just humanity as a species; but the Alliance, and the individuals that populate it.  Individuals that are dying by their millions or billions; and will continue to get slaughtered so long as the Reapers are active in the galaxy.

It's hard to see how Shepard could possibly think: 'Actually, I don't like this thing.  Let's spend years or decades just trying to drive them off each planet one by one instead.  I'm sure the citizens of the Alliance will understand.'

[Eryri]

I didn't like any of the options. They all felt like defeat somehow.
Also their implementation was poor:
Control - Instruct the reapers to go away by grabbing 2 live wires - How does that work exactly?
Synthesis - Add your "energy" to the beam and transform all life to a higher plane - very New Age! Groovy!
Destroy - shoot the tube! And continue to walk headlong into it even after it starts exploding! 

If you haven't already seen it, please have a look at the thread in my signature. It seems a good way to provide constructive feedback to Bioware.

Modifié par Eryri, 26 avril 2012 - 06:47 .

[Clayless]

a.m.p wrote...

The races being exceptionally stupid and the reapers being exceptionally stupid and everyone else being exceptionally stupid is a flaw of the plot that requires them to be stupid to work. Giving addtional ending options would allow to interpret the plot in a way that wouldn't require all that stupidity, without actually changing much.

Oh wait, indeed.
They did something that allowed them to easily take the citadel after several months of war.
They couldn't do the same damn thing a few months later?
If they couldn't, and whatever precautions were put in place kept then from taking the citadel for those months, why are we still talking about them being unbeatable and untrickable and so very smart?

Actually the Reaper's assuming the races aren't going to be exceptionally stupid does not make the Reapers stupid.

Because if something isn't repeated within a few months, by a race that is unaffected by time (especially something as insignificant as a few months) , that means they couldn't do it?

[luzburg]

not me

[a.m.p]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

The races being exceptionally stupid and the reapers being exceptionally stupid and everyone else being exceptionally stupid is a flaw of the plot that requires them to be stupid to work. Giving addtional ending options would allow to interpret the plot in a way that wouldn't require all that stupidity, without actually changing much.

Oh wait, indeed.
They did something that allowed them to easily take the citadel after several months of war.
They couldn't do the same damn thing a few months later?
If they couldn't, and whatever precautions were put in place kept then from taking the citadel for those months, why are we still talking about them being unbeatable and untrickable and so very smart?

Actually the Reaper's assuming the races aren't going to be exceptionally stupid does not make the Reapers stupid.

Because if something isn't repeated within a few months, by a race that is unaffected by time (especially something as insignificant as a few months) , that means they couldn't do it?

The reapers using the most ineffective possible strategy that costs them sovereign reapers is what makes them stupid.

They are "each a nation" right? They get at best one sov-class reaper per cycle. However many of them there are, they probably don't want sov-class reapers to die, because that would defeat one of their purposes according to starchild which is preserve the spicies chosen in reaper form. They aren't cannon fodder.
Those months of war resulted in a number of sov-class reapers being killed. The attack on Earth has resulted in a number of sov-class reapers being killed. Those few months affected them.

If they however could take the citadel at once, those reapers would not be killed. Hell, taking the closed up citadel and holding it until a way is found to open it would be more effective. It's not like we have a big fleet at the beginning to attempt to retake the citadel. How about putting a bunch of reapers close around it and turning indoctrination to max, until the inhabitants open the arms on their own? And if indoctrination doesn't go through citadel arms, how about a plain old siege? As you point out, they aren't in a hurry.

[Clayless]

a.m.p wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

The races being exceptionally stupid and the reapers being exceptionally stupid and everyone else being exceptionally stupid is a flaw of the plot that requires them to be stupid to work. Giving addtional ending options would allow to interpret the plot in a way that wouldn't require all that stupidity, without actually changing much.

Oh wait, indeed.
They did something that allowed them to easily take the citadel after several months of war.
They couldn't do the same damn thing a few months later?
If they couldn't, and whatever precautions were put in place kept then from taking the citadel for those months, why are we still talking about them being unbeatable and untrickable and so very smart?

Actually the Reaper's assuming the races aren't going to be exceptionally stupid does not make the Reapers stupid.

Because if something isn't repeated within a few months, by a race that is unaffected by time (especially something as insignificant as a few months) , that means they couldn't do it?

The reapers using the most ineffective possible strategy that costs them sovereign reapers is what makes them stupid.

They are "each a nation" right? They get at best one sov-class reaper per cycle. However many of them there are, they probably don't want sov-class reapers to die, because that would defeat one of their purposes according to starchild which is preserve the spicies chosen in reaper form. They aren't cannon fodder.
Those months of war resulted in a number of sov-class reapers being killed. The attack on Earth has resulted in a number of sov-class reapers being killed. Those few months affected them.

If they however could take the citadel at once, those reapers would not be killed. Hell, taking the closed up citadel and holding it until a way is found to open it would be more effective. It's not like we have a big fleet at the beginning to attempt to retake the citadel. How about putting a bunch of reapers close around it and turning indoctrination to max, until the inhabitants open the arms on their own? And if indoctrination doesn't go through citadel arms, how about a plain old siege? As you point out, they aren't in a hurry.

I wouldn't really call trying tons of strageties for a thousand years that only gets stopped by, well bad luck, then just going "**** it" and wiping out the galaxy, easily, through sheer force while also trying to revert back to something akin to their original plan at the same time inefective.

Also if you do the sums on the Reapers you'll find out that they could have something like 50 billion Sovereign class Reapers, give or take.

[a.m.p]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

I wouldn't really call trying tons of strageties for a thousand years that only gets stopped by, well bad luck, then just going "**** it" and wiping out the galaxy, easily, through sheer force while also trying to revert back to something akin to their original plan at the same time inefective.

Also if you do the sums on the Reapers you'll find out that they could have something like 50 billion Sovereign class Reapers, give or take.

It's ineffective compared to their usual routine that they have no reason not to use.

And as I keep stating, doing math based on random assumptions and speculations does not give you estimates. It gives you random numbers.

The writers could say there are 200 sov-class reapers and it wouldn't contradict anything we know. Or they could state there are 20 thousand and that wouldn't contradict anything we know.
Stating that there are 50 billion sov-class reapers would contradict the vaguely established one per cycle if there's a sutable species idea. Because our universe seems to be under 14 billion years old.

Modifié par a.m.p, 26 avril 2012 - 07:19 .

[CapnManx]

Was one per cycle established? I thought it was one per 'worthy' species.

[Clayless]

a.m.p wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

I wouldn't really call trying tons of strageties for a thousand years that only gets stopped by, well bad luck, then just going "**** it" and wiping out the galaxy, easily, through sheer force while also trying to revert back to something akin to their original plan at the same time inefective.

Also if you do the sums on the Reapers you'll find out that they could have something like 50 billion Sovereign class Reapers, give or take.

It's ineffective compared to their usual routine that they have no reason not to use.

And as I keep stating, doing math based on random assumptions and speculations does not give you estimates. It gives you random numbers.

The writers could say there are 200 sov-class reapers and it wouldn't contradict anything we know. Or they could state there are 20 thousand and that wouldn't contradict anything we know.
Stating that there are 50 billion sov-class reapers would contradict the vaguely established one per cycle if there's a sutable species idea. Because our universe seems to be under 14 billion years old.

Where is it vaguely established that there's 1 per cycle? It's only established that there's 1 race per cycle. Being generous to the races and making a lot of underwhelming assumptions based off of the evidence we have and the Reapers capabilities comes to sums of about 50 billion Sovereign class Reapers, give or take.

Also, not counting the destroyers, which make up the bulk.

[CapnManx]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...


Where is it vaguely established that there's 1 per cycle? It's only established that there's 1 race per cycle. Being generous to the races and making a lot of underwhelming assumptions based off of the evidence we have and the Reapers capabilities comes to sums of about 50 billion Sovereign class Reapers, give or take.

Also, not counting the destroyers, which make up the bulk.

If it is just one race per cycle, then it probably is one Soveriegn class.  The Codex does suggest that a species is harvested in its entirety to make one. 

[Clayless]

CapnManx wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...


Where is it vaguely established that there's 1 per cycle? It's only established that there's 1 race per cycle. Being generous to the races and making a lot of underwhelming assumptions based off of the evidence we have and the Reapers capabilities comes to sums of about 50 billion Sovereign class Reapers, give or take.

Also, not counting the destroyers, which make up the bulk.

If it is just one race per cycle, then it probably is one Soveriegn class.  The Codex does suggest that a species is harvested in its entirety to make one. 

Source?

[SpartanCommander]

I didn't like the endings either.  I also hated the choices.  When I got the choices I thought I missed something and actually replayed the whole thing with some hints on different things.  Unfortionally it took me some time and when I saw it had 13 unique endings I was over joyed then crushed once I discovered that each one of the 13 endings are practically the same except for 1 or two scenes are are seconds long.

Also I did find nothing very special about the last mission at all.  In fact it was oddly remenisant of some Old Nintendo 64 shooter levels as far as combat was concerned.  I would have thought since it was the last mission of this trillogy they would have gone over the top to impress us especially with all the advertising.  ( At least you fighting along side an army with troops aiding you and not just guy's who die about a few seconds you arrive. 

[a.m.p]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

I wouldn't really call trying tons of strageties for a thousand years that only gets stopped by, well bad luck, then just going "**** it" and wiping out the galaxy, easily, through sheer force while also trying to revert back to something akin to their original plan at the same time inefective.

Also if you do the sums on the Reapers you'll find out that they could have something like 50 billion Sovereign class Reapers, give or take.

It's ineffective compared to their usual routine that they have no reason not to use.

And as I keep stating, doing math based on random assumptions and speculations does not give you estimates. It gives you random numbers.

The writers could say there are 200 sov-class reapers and it wouldn't contradict anything we know. Or they could state there are 20 thousand and that wouldn't contradict anything we know.
Stating that there are 50 billion sov-class reapers would contradict the vaguely established one per cycle if there's a sutable species idea. Because our universe seems to be under 14 billion years old.

Where is it vaguely established that there's 1 per cycle? It's only established that there's 1 race per cycle. Being generous to the races and making a lot of underwhelming assumptions based off of the evidence we have and the Reapers capabilities comes to sums of about 50 billion Sovereign class Reapers, give or take.

Also, not counting the destroyers, which make up the bulk.

According to the wiki, which is not gospel (that's why I said vaguely) and to my personal impressions:
"Available information suggests that a single race is harvested during each cycle to produce one Reaper Capital Ship; it appears that other races harvested during the cycle are used to produce Destroyer-class Reapers. Exactly how or why this distinction is made is unknown. "

Even if we move that idea into speculations section, it still comes down to the fact that we are forced to do make assumptions and do math based on them. And that does not give us estimates. There are as many reapers as the plot demands. If the plot were to be expanded with additional options to fix the other giant ending problems, the reaper numbers could be clarified to be anything required by those options.

[Noelemahc]

And don't forget the bit that everyone loves to bring up - the Prothean cycle didn't produce ANY Sov-class Reapers, meaning that some cycles might be flukes. Maybe most are, because apparently a race has to be judged worthy of addition to the Pantheon rather than the drones, and blatant statistics tell us that even if the cycles are bang on the money, every 50K Urth years (why has nobody questioned the issue of time here? is it precisely 50K years? 50 002 years? 50000 years and seventeen days? is is a conveniet rounding of the actual number or is it actually 50K years precisely? suspiciousssss) you may NOT get races sufficiently advanced to attract the attention of the Reapers.

The codex describes one race (one of the several that are mentioned, but never shown in the games) that destroyed all their spaceships and sat quiet like on their homeworld and were spared. The yahg, being pre-spaceflight, were ignored also.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 26 avril 2012 - 07:40 .

[Clayless]

a.m.p wrote...

According to the wiki, which is not gospel (that's why I said vaguely) and to my personal impressions:
"Available information suggests that a single race is harvested during each cycle to produce one Reaper Capital Ship; it appears that other races harvested during the cycle are used to produce Destroyer-class Reapers. Exactly how or why this distinction is made is unknown. "

Even if we move that idea into speculations section, it still comes down to the fact that we are forced to do make assumptions and do math based on them. And that does not give us estimates. There are as many reapers as the plot demands. If the plot were to be expanded with additional options to fix the other giant ending problems, the reaper numbers could be clarified to be anything required by those options.

Ah it seems whoever wrote incorrectly read this, from the codex:

CAPITAL SHIPS are Sovereign-class Reapers two kilometers in length.
They typically target the dreadnoughts, defense installations, and
industrial cities of organic civilizations. Experts believe the Reapers
harvest a single species of organics during each cycle of extinction to
create these massive ships. Some capital ships are capable of launching
small drones equivalent to fighters.


Because of that, I'll edit the wiki to be more accurate, as there is nothing in the game to suggest they only make 1 Sovereign class Reaper per cycle.

And anyway if we're not going to speculate on the Reapers numbers then we'll have to accept that the Reapers will win if the Crucible fails, as that is directly stated in the game by the leader of the Alliance and the Crucible project. We're not speculating so we'll have to accept that as fact.

So, back to our point, you think that it's better to give up when you reach the Catalyst and hope that the Reapers can be fooled the same way twice?

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 26 avril 2012 - 07:53 .

[Navasha]

Not sure... to me the Destroy ending is kind of a no-brainer to take, at least compared to the other two.

Sure, the geth and EDI get 'sacrificed' to destroy the reapers... but that seems like a small cost considering the number of beings that will be saved.

I would have even sacrificed Earth and the entire sol system if the crucible were nothing more than a big bomb. The number of dead would STILL be miniscule compared to the number saved.

Of course, an option that destroys the reapers without causing more death would be nice, but this game wasn't necessarily about having a "disney" ending.

[CapnManx]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

CapnManx wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...


Where is it vaguely established that there's 1 per cycle? It's only established that there's 1 race per cycle. Being generous to the races and making a lot of underwhelming assumptions based off of the evidence we have and the Reapers capabilities comes to sums of about 50 billion Sovereign class Reapers, give or take.

Also, not counting the destroyers, which make up the bulk.

If it is just one race per cycle, then it probably is one Soveriegn class.  The Codex does suggest that a species is harvested in its entirety to make one. 

Source?

Never mind.  Just read the Codex entry again, and it doesn't actually say one per species.  The wording implies it to me; but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Carry on.

[Clayless]

Noelemahc wrote...

And don't forget the bit that everyone loves to bring up - the Prothean cycle didn't produce ANY Sov-class Reapers, meaning that some cycles might be flukes. Maybe most are, because apparently a race has to be judged worthy of addition to the Pantheon rather than the drones, and blatant statistics tell us that even if the cycles are bang on the money, every 50K Urth years (why has nobody questioned the issue of time here? is it precisely 50K years? 50 002 years? 50000 years and seventeen days? is is a conveniet rounding of the actual number or is it actually 50K years precisely? suspiciousssss) you may NOT get races sufficiently advanced to attract the attention of the Reapers.

The codex describes one race (one of the several that are mentioned, but never shown in the games) that destroyed all their spaceships and sat quiet like on their homeworld and were spared. The yahg, being pre-spaceflight, were ignored also.

The reason why the Prothean cycle isn't brought up is because it would've produced bucketloads of Destroyers that can accept any race and don't need as much individuals to create. Also it is an unknown variable, like how 1 female Krogan can produce 1000 offsrping in a year, so if you were to take into consideration the cycles that produced no Sovereign class Reapers then you'd also have to take into consideration all the cycles where the worthy species could produce as much offspring as the Krogan, if not much more, and would therefore create far more Sovereign class Reapers.

You can say that the previous 20 cycles produced no Sovereign class Reapers, but you could also say they produced 200 times the amount this cycle would. That's why it's averaged out to make 50 billion, give or take.