472 réponses à ce sujet

[ZIPO396]

dreman9999 wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Eain wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

Eain wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Synthesis has no redeeming qualities. Scratch it out.

Control would have been good if you directly take the means to control the reapers from the illusive man's cold dead hands. You want control, you take it. Not just obey space kid.

Destruction must have side effects or else it would been the perfect choice, making picking control pointless. You don't like killing the geth, fine, kill the earth instead or whatever. Or destroy the mass relays. But there has to be a downside to the destruction of the reapers to make the other choice not pointless.

I agree that there should be a downside to destroying the Reapers. You don't walk away from a war like this without serious damage. Sure. I would've been cool with sacrificing an object rather than a species though. So yeah, the Earth instead of the Geth. Humanity's spread across the stars anyway, so while the loss of Earth would be painful it wouldn't destroy an entire species. It also relates more closely to the original theme of the game, ie take earth back.

So instead of betraying the Geth you betray humanity AND all the groundforces of other species still on the planet, including Wrex, Major Kirrahe, and all the ME2 squaddies. NO. ****ING. THANKS.

Well it beats genociding a sentient lifeform. I mean replace the Geth with any species in the universe and ask me to pick the destroy option. I still won't do it. But replace that with sacrificing Earth, Thessia, Palaven, anything, and it's a better pick. Just how I see it.

Can anyone prove the star child is telling the truth?

Can anyone prove he ain't?

The fact that most of what he say is contadicted by facts in the game and that fact that he is from a race of machine with a history of great deception.

It is up to the point in time in the game currently. His "Species" believed it was eventually inevitable. So thus he only acts on those programed beliefs. Also just becasue something is often deceptive doesn't mean it always is.

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Since thye ar writing EC, it' not a speculation.

Why don't know who is writing the EC. Period.

2..We are not argueing why there is a cycle. The arguement is that it was stated that the cycle exists.

Missing the point again. There are two cycles. The actual cycle, and the one in the Catalyst's head.
The latter doesn't exist, and the former is unecesarry without the latter.

1.If Weeks is commenting on it...It's clearly him.
2. That the same cycle. What they cataylyst believe as a cycle is the same as the reapers. And you still trying to lean to argue about the motivation of the reapers. Don't. This is not what we are arguing about. Also, you don't even have all the info to make a valide comment about whether the reapers are wrong about what they believe. So, no you just don't know and we can leave it at that.

[d-boy15]

oh, great... from what I saw, destroy ending is the choice that sacrifice most.

look at control, you almost not lost anything aside from shepard. in synthasis you archive rainbow
and butterfly endings, peace forever!!! with the cost of shepard (if you ignore about dna issue)

so, is that choice need downside more? look, if you believe what starchild said it more worst than
other becasue he tell that by doom the reaper, you doom that galaxy. even you don't believe him
you also, sacrifice you allied and youself if not for 4000+ ems.

and that choice also, destroy earth if your ems is low and it will be more non-sense if that energy
target specific race or planet along with reaper. synthatic destroy is reasonable enough because
it have room to give a logic to it.

Modifié par d-boy15, 25 avril 2012 - 02:09 .

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

1.If Weeks is commenting on it...It's clearly him.

He was commenting on the ending as is, not the EC.
Also, that's quite a leap in logic.

2. That the same cycle. What they cataylyst believe as a cycle is the same as the reapers. And you still trying to lean to argue about the motivation of the reapers. Don't. This is not what we are arguing about. Also, you don't even have all the info to make a valide comment about whether the reapers are wrong about what they believe. So, no you just don't know and we can leave it at that.

The Reapers are demonstrably wrong. That's a fact.
Regardless, no. Those two cycles are seperate things. One is controlled by the Reapers, the other is a belief held by the Catalyst.

[Shaigunjoe]

The Angry One wrote...

Ah yes, the final resort of the pseudo intellectual when someone calls you on your nonsensical gibberish. "You're not smart enough!"

Its also about the 2nd resort that I use when I realize I am actually talking to someone not smart enough, I have had plenty of thought out discussions with others, I even mentioned where you could see this kind of thing in other works to help you understand, but do you? Nope, don't want to waste time providing other points of view to someone who is incapable of seeing beyond their nose.

No. It's stupid. The end. Don't insult me with arrogant presumptions. I don't care where it's been done before.

So you just choose to hate it for hating sake, thats fine, generally the first weapon of the ignorant.

And how are you going to apply it to a Geth? Hm?

As mentioned before, you just won't understand, plenty of other examples in scifi literature, but I doubt you'll bother.

[Eain]

ZIPO396 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Can anyone prove he ain't?

Geth say hi.

Nah he thinks in infinite time. Meaning it's still possible for it to happen over a long standing future. Or he's thinking we make a self replicating nano-machine that eats everything a grey goo scenario.

In an infinite time scenario anything that can happen will happen. In other words, the statistical probability of an organic vs synthetic extermination war is 100%.

But then that goes for everything else by necessity too, including the eventual return of organic life and the overthrowing of synthetic rulers.

[TheOptimist]

Eain wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

It's not better, it just makes you a different kind of mass murderer.  Shep wouldn't betray the Geth, and for sure wouldn't betray her friends on the ground and the forces they're leading.  I reiterate, I want to WIN.  This 'there has to be some grimdark in the ending' theme people get is a crock.  A quarter of the Galaxy, or more, is already dead, you have lost, at minimum, 4 very close friends in getting here, it's enough.  Let me have an ending where Shep wins and goes back to the crew able to hold her head high.

I agree, don't get me wrong. It's like Gears of War. The entire planet of Sera has already been ruined, so it would've been severely odd if the final mission had suddenly required the arbitrary death of a bunch of others. There's plenty destruction to go around. I'm just saying that as it stands the destroy option is entirely out of the question for me, whereas if the destruction were to limit itself to a single world rather than a single species it would become something I'd at the very least contemplate. It's a crappy betrayal in either case, I absolutely agree. But if I really had give an evil rating to destroying a sentient species and destroying a planet with people on it, the former would rate higher for me.

I suppose there's something to that, but frankly the only reason I didn't turn the game off is that I headcannoned starkid was lying and picked destroy.  My Shep wouldn't really contemplate either one.  Thus the need for new (or clarified, I hope) endings.

[pistolols]

Nyoka wrote...

I don't think there's much difference between killing the geth and killing the rachni queen, really. The turian councillor even rebukes you for committing genocide afterwards, and Garrus also protests saying it's genocide.

I think red is the renegade ending.

The problem here is that the green ending is supposed to be the paragon one because of its nice symbolism of empathy and understanding among different forms of life, but they didn't think of the implications of rewriting everybody's DNA.

So renegades have an appropiate choice, more or less, but paragons and neutrals are left with an ending that is not very paragon at all when you think about it for a minute.

control is the paragon choice for the same reason rewriting the geth was paragon.  It's the lesser of two evils.  Think about it.  Many of us do not believe in the death penalty.  There is a reason for that.  We prefer to keep people too dangerous for society locked up and controlled instead of just executing them.  it's not pretty, but it's necessary.

Modifié par pistolols, 25 avril 2012 - 02:10 .

[dreman9999]

ZIPO396 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Eain wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

Eain wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Synthesis has no redeeming qualities. Scratch it out.

Control would have been good if you directly take the means to control the reapers from the illusive man's cold dead hands. You want control, you take it. Not just obey space kid.

Destruction must have side effects or else it would been the perfect choice, making picking control pointless. You don't like killing the geth, fine, kill the earth instead or whatever. Or destroy the mass relays. But there has to be a downside to the destruction of the reapers to make the other choice not pointless.

I agree that there should be a downside to destroying the Reapers. You don't walk away from a war like this without serious damage. Sure. I would've been cool with sacrificing an object rather than a species though. So yeah, the Earth instead of the Geth. Humanity's spread across the stars anyway, so while the loss of Earth would be painful it wouldn't destroy an entire species. It also relates more closely to the original theme of the game, ie take earth back.

So instead of betraying the Geth you betray humanity AND all the groundforces of other species still on the planet, including Wrex, Major Kirrahe, and all the ME2 squaddies. NO. ****ING. THANKS.

Well it beats genociding a sentient lifeform. I mean replace the Geth with any species in the universe and ask me to pick the destroy option. I still won't do it. But replace that with sacrificing Earth, Thessia, Palaven, anything, and it's a better pick. Just how I see it.

Can anyone prove the star child is telling the truth?

Can anyone prove he ain't?

The fact that most of what he say is contadicted by facts in the game and that fact that he is from a race of machine with a history of great deception.

It is up to the point in time in the game currently. His "Species" believed it was eventually inevitable. So thus he only acts on those programed beliefs. Also just becasue something is often deceptive doesn't mean it always is.

I know that, but the question remain, what show he is not being deceptive now? The fact remain that the star child has no reason to help Shepard and every reason to be deceptive, and they used the same level of deception before. I say a smart person takes not on a persons or groups past actions to dictate there future actions unless some show that they changed......Nothing has shown any reason of change at the point of the catylyst.

[VendettaI154]

[raises hand]. Like some other people here, I don't believe a word of what the Catalyst is saying. He's either blatantly lying or knows f*ck all about anything. Either way, I wouldn't go and choose one of his options based on all the ridiculously illogical dialogue I just had with him.

[ZIPO396]

Eain wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Can anyone prove he ain't?

Geth say hi.

Nah he thinks in infinite time. Meaning it's still possible for it to happen over a long standing future. Or he's thinking we make a self replicating nano-machine that eats everything a grey goo scenario.

In an infinite time scenario anything that can happen will happen. In other words, the statistical probability of an organic vs synthetic extermination war is 100%.

But then that goes for everything else by necessity too, including the eventual return of organic life and the overthrowing of synthetic rulers.

I think his species/programmers were just really stupid. Well except it's nigh improbable in a grey goo scenario that nothing comes back ever.

[Eain]

TheOptimist wrote...

Eain wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

It's not better, it just makes you a different kind of mass murderer.  Shep wouldn't betray the Geth, and for sure wouldn't betray her friends on the ground and the forces they're leading.  I reiterate, I want to WIN.  This 'there has to be some grimdark in the ending' theme people get is a crock.  A quarter of the Galaxy, or more, is already dead, you have lost, at minimum, 4 very close friends in getting here, it's enough.  Let me have an ending where Shep wins and goes back to the crew able to hold her head high.

I agree, don't get me wrong. It's like Gears of War. The entire planet of Sera has already been ruined, so it would've been severely odd if the final mission had suddenly required the arbitrary death of a bunch of others. There's plenty destruction to go around. I'm just saying that as it stands the destroy option is entirely out of the question for me, whereas if the destruction were to limit itself to a single world rather than a single species it would become something I'd at the very least contemplate. It's a crappy betrayal in either case, I absolutely agree. But if I really had give an evil rating to destroying a sentient species and destroying a planet with people on it, the former would rate higher for me.

I suppose there's something to that, but frankly the only reason I didn't turn the game off is that I headcannoned starkid was lying and picked destroy.  My Shep wouldn't really contemplate either one.  Thus the need for new (or clarified, I hope) endings.

Well, "your" Shepard already sacrificed a planet to stop the Reapers once before. Part of the reason why the Arrival DLC is so poorly written, tbh.

[The Anti-Saint]

hosen17 wrote...

Most of us here on the forum, I'd assume.

With a bonus Starbrat shooting gallery thrown in for good measure.

[Ariq]

pistolols wrote...

I love control. I'm blown away by the control choice to be honest. Love the concept of Shepard becoming immortal in AI form stored in the citadel.

Eh? Which part of "die" and "lose all that you have" do you think translates to "become immortal in AI form"?

Modifié par Ariq, 25 avril 2012 - 02:11 .

[Oldbones2]

Most of us, I suspect.

[Shaigunjoe]

[quote]ZIPO396 wrote...

[/quote]Yeah but they're making another point as well just not in that bit of the quote. Just because they're now combined doesn't stop them from making synthetics later. Still how would you make the Geth organic.
[/quote]

It starts out by answering, how are the geth alive to begin with?  Do you consider their "platforms" to be a geth, or a consciouscness? You can say the same thing about EDI really.   You could just transplant their conscioucness in a biologial body, thats a simple solution though, hardly an elegant one.  A good treatment is in the Edenist habitats of the Reality Dysfunction, it goes into much better detail of new life that is similiar to both organic and synthetic.

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 25 avril 2012 - 02:13 .

[ZIPO396]

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]ZIPO396 wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]ZIPO396 wrote...

[/quote]Can anyone prove he ain't?
[/quote]The fact that most of what he say is contadicted by facts in the game and that fact that he is from a race of machine with a history of great deception.
[/quote]It is up to the point in time in the game currently. His "Species" believed it was eventually inevitable. So thus he only acts on those programed beliefs. Also just becasue something is often deceptive doesn't mean it always is.
[/quote]I know that, but the question remain, what show he is not being deceptive now? The fact remain that the star child has no reason to help Shepard and every reason to be deceptive, and they used the same level of deception before. I say a smart person takes not on a persons or groups past actions to dictate there future actions unless some show that they changed......Nothing has shown any reason of change at the point of the catylyst.
[/quote]
[/quote]Well we only encountered him in the last 5 minutes. So we don't have long to go on "it's" personal actions. I mean it could of just turned the citadel relay on if it wanted to so it seems to have a purely hands off aporach really. Except for making sure the Reapers keep being Reapers.

Modifié par ZIPO396, 25 avril 2012 - 02:13 .

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1.If Weeks is commenting on it...It's clearly him.

He was commenting on the ending as is, not the EC.
Also, that's quite a leap in logic.

2. That the same cycle. What they cataylyst believe as a cycle is the same as the reapers. And you still trying to lean to argue about the motivation of the reapers. Don't. This is not what we are arguing about. Also, you don't even have all the info to make a valide comment about whether the reapers are wrong about what they believe. So, no you just don't know and we can leave it at that.

The Reapers are demonstrably wrong. That's a fact.
Regardless, no. Those two cycles are seperate things. One is controlled by the Reapers, the other is a belief held by the Catalyst.

1. EC is th ending....So yes he is one of the writes working on EC.
2.Agein, not the point of th argument. And if you do want to argue it, show me facts. Show me info on past cycles and what happen before this cycle  that indecated this. And for the last time, they are the same, and if you stillthink is different, link me to something that says it is.
Also, the last time I looked, the reapers don't want to debate what they believe.

[TheOptimist]

Nyoka wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

It's not better, it just makes you a different kind of mass murderer.  Shep wouldn't betray the Geth, and for sure wouldn't betray her friends on the ground and the forces they're leading.  I reiterate, I want to WIN.  This 'there has to be some grimdark in the ending' theme people get is a crock.  A quarter of the Galaxy, or more, is already dead, you have lost, at minimum, 4 very close friends in getting here, it's enough.  Let me have an ending where Shep wins and goes back to the crew able to hold her head high.

And I reiterate, making an option a get out of jail free means there's no reason to pick the other options.

You have to provide a reason to pick control. Otherwise, you still have a quarter of the galaxy dead, 4 very close friends dead AND the reapers are still alive. Pointless. There has to be a good thing about picking the alternative option.

First of all, no I don't.  I WANT a get out of jail free card, as you put it, and I'd never pick the other options regardless.  Both are essentially admitting the Reapers were right, and that's BS.  There is NO reason the Geth have to die other than to make destroy grimdark, and that automatically makes it crap.

Secondly, If you've played a RenShep, there's probably a certain appeal to the godlike power the Reapers represent.  Heck maybe some Paragons would choose it thinking it would allow you to keep the peace forever.  But the real reason to pick control would be if you believe Starkid is telling you the truth.  You pick destroy if you believe he's lying.  In either case, it turns out you're correct. 

[pistolols]

Ariq wrote...

pistolols wrote...

I love control. I'm blown away by the control choice to be honest. Love the concept of Shepard becoming immortal in AI form stored in the citadel.

Eh? Which part of "die" and "lose all that you have" do you think translates to "become immortal in AI form"?

Yeah, shepard's body dies.  He loses it.  His consciousness is uploaded into the citadel and he becomes the new catalyst.  Explain to me how else he controls the reapers?  The reason they have him telling us "you will die" is so we know going into it that it's not going to be like David from Project Overlord who's consciousness was uploaded, but he was still alive, still got to keep his body.

And i hate to use a religious analogy because i know people on the internet hate that, but Jesus "died" on the cross, too.

[The Angry One]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Its also about the 2nd resort that I use when I realize I am actually talking to someone not smart enough, I have had plenty of thought out discussions with others, I even mentioned where you could see this kind of thing in other works to help you understand, but do you? Nope, don't want to waste time providing other points of view to someone who is incapable of seeing beyond their nose.

Yeah you said others do it so it's okay. That's not an argument.
Get the hell out of here with your pseudo intellectualism, the fact that you want to believe that buying into this nonsense makes you smarter than me proves that you're not.

So you just choose to hate it for hating sake, thats fine, generally the first weapon of the ignorant.

Resorting to insults. Laughable. You have nothing. Go away.

As mentioned before, you just won't understand, plenty of other examples in scifi literature, but I doubt you'll bother.

Pointless evasion, either justify it on it's own merit or be silent.

[ZIPO396]

[quote]Shaigunjoe wrote...

[quote]ZIPO396 wrote...
Yeah but they're making another point as well just not in that bit of the quote. Just because they're now combined doesn't stop them from making synthetics later. Still how would you make the Geth organic.
[/quote]

It starts out by answering, how are the geth alive to begin with?  Do you consider their "platforms" to be a geth, or a consciouscness? You can say the same thing about EDI really.   You could just transplant their conscioucness in a biologial body, thats a simple solution though, hardly an elegant one.  A good treatment is in the Edenist habitats of the Reality Dysfunction, it goes into much better detail of new life that is similiar to both organic and synthetic.


[/quote]
[/quote]I believe if you let Legion go with the Reaper code he makes each individual get program into a truly self aware one. So that's their life to me. So I consider the individual platforms to be like a city really. Cities can be said to be alive.

Modifié par ZIPO396, 25 avril 2012 - 02:19 .

[dreman9999]

ZIPO396 wrote...

]Well we only encountered him in the last 5 minutes. So we don't have long to go on "it's" personal actions. I mean it could of just turned the citadel relay on if it wanted to so it seems to have a purely hands off aporach really. Except for making sure the Reapers keep being Reapers.

Which also question if he has the powerhe claims to have. Really, their is nothing to show that I should trust him, even more so being that he is part of the reapers.
So really, why should I beleive him?