472 réponses à ce sujet

[pistolols]

Nyoka wrote...

pistolols wrote...

control is the paragon choice for the same reason rewriting the geth was paragon.  It's the lesser of two evils.  Think about it.  Many of us do not believe in the death penalty.  There is a reason for that.  We prefer to keep people too dangerous for society locked up and controlled instead of just executing them.  it's not pretty, but it's necessary.

Is that why you killed a reaper in ME1 and another one in ME2 and a couple more in ME3?

If the options had been there to control them instead, it would be a paragon option worth thinking about.  Again, same situation as geth heretics mission.  We go there to kill them.  Then Legion suddenly informs us of a new possibility, that they could be rewritten.  It instantly becomes a consideration even though we were there to just kill them in the first place.

Use your head, bro.

[ZIPO396]

dreman9999 wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

]Well we only encountered him in the last 5 minutes. So we don't have long to go on "it's" personal actions. I mean it could of just turned the citadel relay on if it wanted to so it seems to have a purely hands off aporach really. Except for making sure the Reapers keep being Reapers.

Which also question if he has the powerhe claims to have. Really, their is nothing to show that I should trust him, even more so being that he is part of the reapers.
So really, why should I beleive him?

Why should we have even made the cruicible in the first place?

[Kunari801]

Eain wrote...

Does anyone else have the same problem I'm having? Even beyond the other problems with the ending, I just do not want to do anything the Catalyst offers me. As a result, I never choose and just turn the game off.

I prefer to let the choice remain unmade, because no matter what I do I end up having to betray something about my Shepard or the people in the galaxy. I don't want to do that, at all.  

Pretty much same boat as you, that's why I'd like to see "Control" split into two:  
1- A way to just kick the Reapers out (even if it just reset the cycle) but have Shepard lives and
2- Shepard joins the Reapers for permanent control.  

I'd like to see "Destroy" split up too to choose to kill the Reapers and 
1- Yourself (Thus saving the Geth & EDI)
2- Sacrifice the Geth & EDI to save yourself.  

This keeps in-line with what we know is likely in the EC yet bascially  add two "flavors" to the endings we already have  --keeping the existing ones for those that like them-- but giving us that want more options more choices.   

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. EC is th ending....So yes he is one of the writes working on EC.

The current ending is not the EC. That is what he talked about.
I can't believe I have to explain this to you.

2.Agein, not the point of th argument. And if you do want to argue it, show me facts. Show me info on past cycles and what happen before this cycle  that indecated this. And for the last time, they are the same, and if you stillthink is different, link me to something that says it is.
Also, the last time I looked, the reapers don't want to debate what they believe.

Prothean cycle. The Zha'till. True hybrids, co-existing with organic hosts. They did not take over their organic hosts until the Reapers forced them to.

This cycle. The Geth.

I have two synthetic races that disprove everything the Catalyst says, from two cycles. What does the Catalyst have?

[Shaigunjoe]

ZIPO396 wrote...

I believe if you let Legion go with the Reaper code he makes each individual get program into a truly self aware one. So that's their life to me.

That is open to speculation though, do you see any other individual geth with individual names?  Though completly reasonable to think its geth does become an individual, though it would seem to me that there are way more geth than platforms, what about the others?

So I consider the individual platforms to be like a city really. Cities can be said to be alive.

Exactly like Edenist habitats!

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 25 avril 2012 - 02:24 .

[TheOptimist]

Eain wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

Eain wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

It's not better, it just makes you a different kind of mass murderer.  Shep wouldn't betray the Geth, and for sure wouldn't betray her friends on the ground and the forces they're leading.  I reiterate, I want to WIN.  This 'there has to be some grimdark in the ending' theme people get is a crock.  A quarter of the Galaxy, or more, is already dead, you have lost, at minimum, 4 very close friends in getting here, it's enough.  Let me have an ending where Shep wins and goes back to the crew able to hold her head high.

I agree, don't get me wrong. It's like Gears of War. The entire planet of Sera has already been ruined, so it would've been severely odd if the final mission had suddenly required the arbitrary death of a bunch of others. There's plenty destruction to go around. I'm just saying that as it stands the destroy option is entirely out of the question for me, whereas if the destruction were to limit itself to a single world rather than a single species it would become something I'd at the very least contemplate. It's a crappy betrayal in either case, I absolutely agree. But if I really had give an evil rating to destroying a sentient species and destroying a planet with people on it, the former would rate higher for me.

I suppose there's something to that, but frankly the only reason I didn't turn the game off is that I headcannoned starkid was lying and picked destroy.  My Shep wouldn't really contemplate either one.  Thus the need for new (or clarified, I hope) endings.

Well, "your" Shepard already sacrificed a planet to stop the Reapers once before. Part of the reason why the Arrival DLC is so poorly written, tbh.

They were already dead, they just didn't know it yet.  Unlike Earth, there was simply no way to save them.  And yep, there's 300,000 batarians worth of blood on Shep's hands, because in that instance I didn't get a choice, other than to try to warn them.  But what you're talking about is killing 10,000 times that number of humans, not to mention so many of your friends.  And in that case, you've already lost, no matter what you did before.

[Stalker]

I have never, in any game, on my first playthrough, tried to turn around when offered the ending(s). Without any outer input, I was stunned for a few minutes when offered the choices.

So yeah, I agree OP.

[Ariq]

pistolols wrote...

Ariq wrote...
Eh? Which part of "die" and "lose all that you have" do you think translates to "become immortal in AI form"?

Yeah, shepard's body dies.  He loses it.  His consciousness is uploaded into the citadel and he becomes the new catalyst.

The game doesn't say or indicate anything remotely like this. They could have said, "your mind will be uploaded", but they didn't. They said you'd die. They show Shepard getting turned all blue and Reaperized. Nothing there indicates he survives the process in any meaningful way or that he "becomes the new Catalyst" which is a huge leap of logic. At that point, we're just making stuff up to suit our fancy. You can write as much fanfic as you want, but that ain't in the game I played.

[ZIPO396]

[quote]ZIPO396 wrote...

I believe if you let Legion go with the Reaper code he makes each individual get program into a truly self aware one. So that's their life to me.[/quote]
[quote]Shaigunjoe wrote...

That is open to speculation though, do you see any other individual geth with individual names?  Though completly reasonable to think its geth does become an individual, though it would seem to me that there are way more geth than platforms, what about the others?
[/quote][/quote]
We have yet to meet one as they only recently arrived at this consensus. And there are more programs than platforms it takes a lot to run just one platfrom.
[quote]
So I consider the individual platforms to be like a city really. Cities can be said to be alive.
[/quote]

[quote]Exactly like Edenist habitats!

[/quote]
[/quote]Which ah kinda never really work.

Modifié par ZIPO396, 25 avril 2012 - 02:28 .

[Eain]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. EC is th ending....So yes he is one of the writes working on EC.

The current ending is not the EC. That is what he talked about.
I can't believe I have to explain this to you.

2.Agein, not the point of th argument. And if you do want to argue it, show me facts. Show me info on past cycles and what happen before this cycle  that indecated this. And for the last time, they are the same, and if you stillthink is different, link me to something that says it is.
Also, the last time I looked, the reapers don't want to debate what they believe.

Prothean cycle. The Zha'till. True hybrids, co-existing with organic hosts. They did not take over their organic hosts until the Reapers forced them to.

This cycle. The Geth.

I have two synthetic races that disprove everything the Catalyst says, from two cycles. What does the Catalyst have?

Logically? Probably a thousand cycles in which he was proven right. I mean, if the Reapers are as ancient as we think they are then statistically there'd be an equal amount of cycles in which he was proven and disproven.

I think that if the Catalyst is really to be taken at face value then we also have to concede that he speaks for more than just the events in Shepard's life. For all we know he could be talking about how organics inevitably always muck things up and provoke synthetics into war against them. Who knows. The point that we can't gather this from what he's saying means that he's been poorly written, but it's not an innately stupid conviction. There's philosophical merit to the problem itself, it's just that Walters was not the right person to give that problem a sci-fi treatment.

[Orumon]

blaidfiste wrote...

Not to mention the tacked on "btw the mass relays get destroyed no matter what."

I'm cool with the disabling of the mass relays, even with the additional risks of starvation, division and anarchy.

Note I said disabling, not destruction. I don't like a galaxy cleansing force of destruction in every star sector.

[The Angry One]

Eain wrote...

Logically? Probably a thousand cycles in which he was proven right. I mean, if the Reapers are as ancient as we think they are then statistically there'd be an equal amount of cycles in which he was proven and disproven.

The Catalyst was never proven right. Organics still exist. The only way for him to be proven right is if synthetics actually did exterminate all organic life once. Which they can't have, since we're still here.
Moreover if the game wants us to not immediately dismiss everything the Catalyst says, then the game must show something to support his assertions. It shows us the exact opposite.

The only thing the Catalyst has is an appeal to it's own authority.

I think that if the Catalyst is really to be taken at face value then we also have to concede that he speaks for more than just the events in Shepard's life. For all we know he could be talking about how organics inevitably always muck things up and provoke synthetics into war against them. Who knows. The point that we can't gather this from what he's saying means that he's been poorly written, but it's not an innately stupid conviction. There's philosophical merit to the problem itself, it's just that Walters was not the right person to give that problem a sci-fi treatment.

The problem is you can use an infinite amount of time to justify ANYTHING.
Given an infinite amount of time, the Krogan will murder everyone for fun.
Given an infinite amount of time, humans will elect another Hitler and destroy the universe.
Given an infinite amount of time, the Reapers will turn against the Catalyst and kill all organic life.

Modifié par The Angry One, 25 avril 2012 - 02:32 .

[pistolols]

Nyoka wrote...

pistolols wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

pistolols wrote...

control is the paragon choice for the same reason rewriting the geth was paragon.  It's the lesser of two evils.  Think about it.  Many of us do not believe in the death penalty.  There is a reason for that.  We prefer to keep people too dangerous for society locked up and controlled instead of just executing them.  it's not pretty, but it's necessary.

Is that why you killed a reaper in ME1 and another one in ME2 and a couple more in ME3?

If the options had been there to control them instead, it would be a paragon option worth thinking about.  Again, same situation as geth heretics mission.  We go there to kill them.  Then Legion suddenly informs us of a new possibility, that they could be rewritten.  It instantly becomes a consideration even though we were there to just kill them in the first place.

Use your head, bro.

"You're not even alive. Not really. You're just a machine, and machines can be broken."

It sure sounds like Shepard wants to give the reapers a fair trial and put them in prison.

And Shepard's actions when she killed those 4 reapers on sight sure looks like she doesn't want to kill reapers, eh?

It's fine if you want to imagine your own Shepard that is different from what we see in the game. But I have no interest in your imagination, I prefer to stick to the games.

Also, if I recall well, there was a fair amount of forum struggle by paragons about that mission not having a good choice for them. And here in this very thread you can read many paragons who don't agree that brainwashing is a nice thing to do. Go ask them what being a paragon means.

You're misunderstanding me.  I'm not saying Shepard isn't all about killing reapers (i was talking about people IRL not believing in the death penalty).  I'm saying you need to understand that paragon shep is willing to consider alternatives to just killing everything.  That's why rewriting the geth in ME2 is the paragon choice even though it's essentially brainwashing the heretics into changing their beliefs.  Because it's still better than executing them.

Ariq wrote...

pistolols wrote...

Ariq wrote...
Eh? Which part of "die" and "lose all that you have" do you think translates to "become immortal in AI form"?

Yeah, shepard's body dies. He loses it. His consciousness is uploaded into the citadel and he becomes the new catalyst.

The game doesn't say or indicate anything remotely like this. They could have said, "your mind will be uploaded", but they didn't. They said you'd die. They show Shepard getting turned all blue and Reaperized. Nothing there indicates he survives the process in any meaningful way or that he "becomes the new Catalyst" which is a huge leap of logic. At that point, we're just making stuff up to suit our fancy. You can write as much fanfic as you want, but that ain't in the game I played.

Yeah, still waiting for you to explain to me how else he controls the reapers then.   It's precisely the reason Control is the only choice where the citadel doesn't blow up.  It's where shepard is controlling the reapers from!  Use your head for once.  They shouldn't have to spoon feed everything to us.

Modifié par pistolols, 25 avril 2012 - 02:34 .

[GuitarShredUK]

I have several reasons, and had a very hard time picking one of them (destroy) in my first playthrough w/ paragon maleshep that I've just only just finished.

A) Control - never in a million years would any of my Shepards even consider this. You spend the entire trilogy facing off against two main villains, Saren and TIM who both become agents of the Reapers. For all three games you're fighting a losing battle telling them both that they're wrong, Reaper control is a bad idea, and in the end they both commit suicide.

...yet at the end game of ME3 the starchild goes "oh, but you're special, you can do this!" and I just went WTF.

Synthesis - I considered this, it does render the cycle pointless, and ends it but with the death of Shepard so to me I'd only pick this if I was playing as a Shep that I didn't care much for and was just doing a test run.

C) Destroy - as I've mentioned I picked this for my paragon Maleshep, first playthrough which is kind of odd. The only things that made me do this were that 1) Shepard can survive, 2) the Geth were originally the enemy in ME1, but it is mega harsh to see them go along with EDI and 3) the Reapers are finally no more, with no responsibility from Shepard as in control/synthesis. 


So, I really wish there was a fourth decision: what I actually wanted after being forced to pick one of starkid's own options was that Shepard should be able to give him a "**ck you" if their reputation is high enough, either way. Now she/he has independance, player agency. What I had hoped for ME3 was that the ending would be like that of ME1 on a much greater scale. Take out the control/power source for the Reaper(s), i.e. Starkid,  like Saren w/ Sovereign, then you can defeat them by conventional ship v ship combat - will take a lot more effort, but without the needless death of billions and the reversal of loads of advancements i.e. mass relays.

Modifié par GuitarShredUK, 25 avril 2012 - 02:32 .

[TheOptimist]

Eain wrote...

Logically? Probably a thousand cycles in which he was proven right. I mean, if the Reapers are as ancient as we think they are then statistically there'd be an equal amount of cycles in which he was proven and disproven.

I think that if the Catalyst is really to be taken at face value then we also have to concede that he speaks for more than just the events in Shepard's life. For all we know he could be talking about how organics inevitably always muck things up and provoke synthetics into war against them. Who knows. The point that we can't gather this from what he's saying means that he's been poorly written, but it's not an innately stupid conviction. There's philosophical merit to the problem itself, it's just that Walters was not the right person to give that problem a sci-fi treatment.

The problem here is that according to the Catalysts own version of events, he intervenes before he can find out if he'd be proven right.  It's actually fairly humorous, he can't know if peace is possible because he intervenes before it can get to that point.

[Shaigunjoe]

ZIPO396 wrote...

Which ah kinda never really work.

They do work, bad things may happen, but they do work, for centuries actually.

[SlyTF1]

I would have rather let the Reapers destroy all organic life than chose any of the damn choices we got.

[ZIPO396]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Which ah kinda never really work.

They do work, bad things may happen, but they do work, for centuries actually.

I was just being silly really. I just mean no system works permanently.

[Shaigunjoe]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. EC is th ending....So yes he is one of the writes working on EC.

The current ending is not the EC. That is what he talked about.
I can't believe I have to explain this to you.

2.Agein, not the point of th argument. And if you do want to argue it, show me facts. Show me info on past cycles and what happen before this cycle  that indecated this. And for the last time, they are the same, and if you stillthink is different, link me to something that says it is.
Also, the last time I looked, the reapers don't want to debate what they believe.

Prothean cycle. The Zha'till. True hybrids, co-existing with organic hosts. They did not take over their organic hosts until the Reapers forced them to.

This cycle. The Geth.

I have two synthetic races that disprove everything the Catalyst says, from two cycles. What does the Catalyst have?

Looks like you have to be reminded again that the synthesis does not create hybrids seen before.  Those examples are null and void.

[pistolols]

GuitarShredUK wrote...

A) Control - never in a million years would any of my Shepards even consider this.

Your Shepard rewrote the geth.  Clearly you must not know him very well.

[ZIPO396]

The Angry One wrote...
The problem is you can use an infinite amount of time to justify ANYTHING.
Given an infinite amount of time, the Krogan will murder everyone for fun.
Given an infinite amount of time, humans will elect another Hitler and destroy the universe.
Given an infinite amount of time, the Reapers will turn against the Catalyst and kill all organic life.

Yeah that's the reason why I'm not a fan of him either cause that's basically what the catalyst/programers is/was doing.

[dreman9999]

ZIPO396 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

]Well we only encountered him in the last 5 minutes. So we don't have long to go on "it's" personal actions. I mean it could of just turned the citadel relay on if it wanted to so it seems to have a purely hands off aporach really. Except for making sure the Reapers keep being Reapers.

Which also question if he has the powerhe claims to have. Really, their is nothing to show that I should trust him, even more so being that he is part of the reapers.
So really, why should I beleive him?

Why should we have even made the cruicible in the first place?

Because we are desprate and we we can't bet the reaper convetionally.

[Eain]

The Angry One wrote...

Eain wrote...

Logically? Probably a thousand cycles in which he was proven right. I mean, if the Reapers are as ancient as we think they are then statistically there'd be an equal amount of cycles in which he was proven and disproven.

The Catalyst was never proven right. Organics still exist. The only way for him to be proven right is if synthetics actually did exterminate all organic life once. Which they can't have, since we're still here.

Ah, true. Forgot about that.

I think that if the Catalyst is really to be taken at face value then we also have to concede that he speaks for more than just the events in Shepard's life. For all we know he could be talking about how organics inevitably always muck things up and provoke synthetics into war against them. Who knows. The point that we can't gather this from what he's saying means that he's been poorly written, but it's not an innately stupid conviction. There's philosophical merit to the problem itself, it's just that Walters was not the right person to give that problem a sci-fi treatment.

The problem is you can use an infinite amount of time to justify ANYTHING.
Given an infinite amount of time, the Krogan will murder everyone for fun.
Given an infinite amount of time, humans will elect another Hitler and destroy the universe.
Given an infinite amount of time, the Reapers will turn against the Catalyst and kill all organic life.

Rofl, absolutely true aswell. That's why I think that the organic vs synthetic problem becomes a lot more interesting when approached from the angle of mindsets and emotions rather than something as banal as a war. Again, Walters was not the person to deal with this issue, mostly because I really doubt that he spent a lot of time thinking about this himself.

The only way I think the Catalyst's point can have any merit to it is if he were to argue that synthetics would exterminate us only because we leave them no choice. That still amounts to the same issue with the Reaper cycles, ie synthetics never did destroy us so how does he know that what he says is true? But at the very least it's a premise we can attack him on. Just because he's an ancient AI doesn't mean he has to be right, and for a being like him to create a cycle of intergalactic destruction on a faulty premise is actually somewhat interesting, even if I don't necessarily think that the ME universe is the right setting in which to experiment with that concept. This series should've ended a lot more traditionally, and left philosophical conundrums to other settings better designed to deal with them.

[Orumon]

Samtheman63 wrote...

lol, pretty sure I'm not a machine.

Actually, a good way to describe a human body is a neural net powered by a oxygen/sugar based reaction, supported by a primarily calcium endoskeleton for structural support, with protein servos attached to each part of the endoskeleton for mobility protected by a water/carbon layer to protect from parasites and atmosphere decay.

Actually, that underdescribes the complexity of any organic  machine, but that's the basic analysis. More accurately, the word machine can be used to describe arthropods, since they're based on simple functions.

Of greater complexity are mammals, reptiles, fish and birds, which have adjustible programming.

Humans, being sentient, aren't machines, but fully self aware with fully self changing programming. That said, some programming, or instincts, are there for a damn good reason.