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Has your experience with ME3/ME3 forums/ME3sites etc. affected your attitude towards future ME games and BW releases?


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#326
Artemis_Entrari

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abaris wrote...
My guess is, we didn't see the real ending they had in mind. Chances are, this is indeed a rushjob tacked on with duct tape and superglue that originally was intended as the beginning of the end. But then the gods of beancounting made their appearance.


If that's true, then why hide behind "artistic integrity"?  Why not explain that certain timeline/budget constraints didn't allow them to pull off everything they wanted, so they went for the next best thing (in their minds)?  The DA2 developers basically did this.  They explained why they decided to use re-used areas instead of making new ones.  They didn't just hide behind "because of artistic integrity".

When I read "artistic integrity", I read that as the person saying that their work is EXACTLY how they wanted it, but is now defending it against criticism.  I don't think people would use that description in cases where they know in their hearts the end product isn't close to what they actually wanted to do.

#327
abaris

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Artemis_Entrari wrote...

If that's true, then why hide behind "artistic integrity"?  Why not explain that certain timeline/budget constraints didn't allow them to pull off everything they wanted, so they went for the next best thing (in their minds)?  The DA2 developers basically did this.  They explained why they decided to use re-used areas instead of making new ones.  They didn't just hide behind "because of artistic integrity".


Because we're dealing with corporate PR?

Do you honestly think they would admit to constraints or something not to be to their liking? That would be commercial suicide.

#328
XTR3M3

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my experience with this is that it has killed my desire to ever pre-order BioWare games again. It also is making me look in other directions for reviews. I no longer will read of any of the "professional" reviewers. If I just wanted to look at cheerleaders, the Dallas Cowboys have ones that are far easier on the eyes.

We came in with valid criticisms and what we get is "artistic integrity" and "entitled brats" shoved at us along with the trend to insinuate that we are stupid and just didn't understand the ending.

#329
abaris

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XTR3M3 wrote...

I no longer will read of any of the "professional" reviewers. If I just wanted to look at cheerleaders, the Dallas Cowboys have ones that are far easier on the eyes.


You can read professional reviews. Just don't believe their ratings. Professional reviews don't actually lie. You can get a pretty clear picture if you would like that kind of game by studying their descriptions.

#330
ThomasDW

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after finishing ME3, as I gasped in awe at the ending, overwhelmed by the sheer awesomeness of its originality and humbled by the display of artistic integrity  by the team that came up with it, I can say without a shadow of doubt that as soon as Hell freezes over, I will buy another game made by Bioware, can´t wait for doing that.

Modifié par ThomasDW, 30 avril 2012 - 05:57 .


#331
deuce985

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NO

ME3 was a masterpiece up until the last 5 minutes. Even then, I'm not bothered so much by the ending as some are. I saw things a little differently. Could it be better? Sure. Am I going to let 5 minutes ruin all those incredible moments I had throughout ME3? No. Will it ever change the emotion it gave me through three games? Nope.

Only game I can say that has been disappointing to me from Bioware's entire list, dating back to Baldur's Gate, is DA2. And even that game isn't THAT BAD.

I'm not mindless enough to let others sway my own opinions and think for me either. *referring to topic*

Why would ME3 forums/sites change my original opinion?

Modifié par deuce985, 30 avril 2012 - 06:05 .


#332
Artemis_Entrari

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abaris wrote...

Artemis_Entrari wrote...

If that's true, then why hide behind "artistic integrity"?  Why not explain that certain timeline/budget constraints didn't allow them to pull off everything they wanted, so they went for the next best thing (in their minds)?  The DA2 developers basically did this.  They explained why they decided to use re-used areas instead of making new ones.  They didn't just hide behind "because of artistic integrity".


Because we're dealing with corporate PR?

Do you honestly think they would admit to constraints or something not to be to their liking? That would be commercial suicide.


Read some of the responses from the Dragon Age 2 developers/producers, in response to fans complaints about various DA2 features.  They were quite candid about limited time and having to make consessions in one area to utilize the time on another area.  They're also under EA's banner, too.  So why were they able to say that stuff, while the ME3 team isn't?

#333
Cancer Puppet

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It wasn't so much the forums, or the multitude of complaints regarding the ending, that affected my view of Bioware; but rather it was Bioware's textbook PR response to the outcry that really irritates me.

A little repect on their part, instead of marketing doublespeak, would have aleviated the problem significantly. I am also aware that that means being better than the people spitting venom, but I don't feel as though they held themselves to that higher standard.

#334
WaffleCrab

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abaris wrote...

WaffleCrab wrote...

what it comes to conspiracy theories, i doubt bioware would have intentionally created the ques for indoctrination theory or hallucination, If they did, they would have been more obvious.


My guess is, we didn't see the real ending they had in mind. Chances are, this is indeed a rushjob tacked on with duct tape and superglue that originally was intended as the beginning of the end. But then the gods of beancounting made their appearance.


Yeah, the game had that rushed feeling through out the whole game, kinda hard to hide that :S

#335
wildannie

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ME3 the game has achieved a remarkable feat in turning me from someone who was more than happy to pre-order collectors editions, buy all DLC, and some of the books and comics associated with BW games into someone who will be renting their titles.

Bioware destroyed my trust in them.

Recommendations to BW would be to...

- be more honest, there's only so much spin your customers are prepared to swallow.
- refrain from blatantly treating female fans as an unimportant minority, what's the use in a fancy trailer if the in game content is glaringly lacking.
- don't unavoidably kill off players LI characters, it's cruel, and game breaking for some.
- don't have LI characters cheat on the main character it's also cruel, and game breaking for some.
- remember players like to feel in control of their character, don't take that away (less autodialogue)
- don't change the tone of the game in the final instalment of a trilogy.
- remember that the journey is not more important than the end it is as important as the end, we need them both.

#336
WaffleCrab

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deuce985 wrote...

NO

ME3 was a masterpiece up until the last 5 minutes. Even then, I'm not bothered so much by the ending as some are. I saw things a little differently. Could it be better? Sure. Am I going to let 5 minutes ruin all those incredible moments I had throughout ME3? No. Will it ever change the emotion it gave me through three games? Nope.

Only game I can say that has been disappointing to me from Bioware's entire list, dating back to Baldur's Gate, is DA2. And even that game isn't THAT BAD.

I'm not mindless enough to let others sway my own opinions and think for me either. *referring to topic*

Why would ME3 forums/sites change my original opinion?


Well for mindless drones it might not, nor for the lucky few who havent been trampled on, on the forums by mods or BW cheerleaders.

But alot of people, are getting trampled on and trolled by mods, and BW cheerleaders, while the staff turns a blind eye, i am sorry but that is how it is.

As for sites, i am referring to how they just straight out lied to us as consumers on their official site and twitter about the content of the game and validity of the old decisions, and myriad of other things.

#337
Damicles

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Can say no I won't be buying a Bioware product on day one anymore due to the last 2 water down games.

#338
deuce985

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WaffleCrab wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

NO

ME3 was a masterpiece up until the last 5 minutes. Even then, I'm not bothered so much by the ending as some are. I saw things a little differently. Could it be better? Sure. Am I going to let 5 minutes ruin all those incredible moments I had throughout ME3? No. Will it ever change the emotion it gave me through three games? Nope.

Only game I can say that has been disappointing to me from Bioware's entire list, dating back to Baldur's Gate, is DA2. And even that game isn't THAT BAD.

I'm not mindless enough to let others sway my own opinions and think for me either. *referring to topic*

Why would ME3 forums/sites change my original opinion?


Well for mindless drones it might not, nor for the lucky few who havent been trampled on, on the forums by mods or BW cheerleaders.

But alot of people, are getting trampled on and trolled by mods, and BW cheerleaders, while the staff turns a blind eye, i am sorry but that is how it is.

As for sites, i am referring to how they just straight out lied to us as consumers on their official site and twitter about the content of the game and validity of the old decisions, and myriad of other things.


That's why a take reviews with a grain of salt these days. They almost never form a opinion for me. I just get general insight from them and that is about it. I've always felt the best reviews are user reviews. They're usually honest and tell you whatever flaws are in the game. They don't get strong-armed when it comes to reviews.

That being said, I like what I see in previews, I just go out and get the games. Most of the time I don't even bother reading reviews personally. In ME3's case, I was on a complete media blackout thanks to Casey Hudson laying the spoiler bombs throughout ME2's marketing. I knew I'd enjoy ME3 because I knew what to expect.

#339
WaffleCrab

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deuce985 wrote...

WaffleCrab wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

NO

ME3 was a masterpiece up until the last 5 minutes. Even then, I'm not bothered so much by the ending as some are. I saw things a little differently. Could it be better? Sure. Am I going to let 5 minutes ruin all those incredible moments I had throughout ME3? No. Will it ever change the emotion it gave me through three games? Nope.

Only game I can say that has been disappointing to me from Bioware's entire list, dating back to Baldur's Gate, is DA2. And even that game isn't THAT BAD.

I'm not mindless enough to let others sway my own opinions and think for me either. *referring to topic*

Why would ME3 forums/sites change my original opinion?


Well for mindless drones it might not, nor for the lucky few who havent been trampled on, on the forums by mods or BW cheerleaders.

But alot of people, are getting trampled on and trolled by mods, and BW cheerleaders, while the staff turns a blind eye, i am sorry but that is how it is.

As for sites, i am referring to how they just straight out lied to us as consumers on their official site and twitter about the content of the game and validity of the old decisions, and myriad of other things.


That's why a take reviews with a grain of salt these days. They almost never form a opinion for me. I just get general insight from them and that is about it. I've always felt the best reviews are user reviews. They're usually honest and tell you whatever flaws are in the game. They don't get strong-armed when it comes to reviews.

That being said, I like what I see in previews, I just go out and get the games. Most of the time I don't even bother reading reviews personally. In ME3's case, I was on a complete media blackout thanks to Casey Hudson laying the spoiler bombs throughout ME2's marketing. I knew I'd enjoy ME3 because I knew what to expect.


well i am talking here as a fan who bought all 3 games on day one, ME2 i pre ordered. Why i cant swallow or even chew what the marketing did, is because they just plain, straight out, lied into the customers face about the continuity of your decisions from me1 and 2 over to 3. And the fact that we are basically playing an unfinished product. There was a thread like a month or so ago here on the forums where someone who had acces to the early version of the whole game, the current game we have is missing a **** load of things, even from the story itself. he even mentioned about a card game with james(yeah apparently it was there, now we just got the stub dialogs nothing else)

#340
NanQuan

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I'm sad to say, yeah, I'm more than a little wary after ME3.  I loved, and still love (though not in the same devoted fashion) Mass Effect, and though DA: O wasn't my favorite game, I did think it was good and enjoyed the majority of it.  First DA2 was a major disappointment and I was more than a little appalled by it.  But I put my faith in Bioware to do right by ME3.  And for the majority of the game, it was great.  That ending though... it just kills the game.

If you had asked me a few months ago, I would have said that I probably would have bought any game related to Mass Effect.  Now, probably not.  The ending of ME3 killed the ME universe so I don't particuarly trust that I would enjoy anything else set there.  I also don't want to touch DA anymore, so that leaves me somewhat out in the cold when it comes to Bioware games.

So short answer, the extended cut has the potential to regain some of my faith, but I'm wary at this point.  I won't make the mistake of preordering anymore certainly. I've learned my lesson.

#341
Midz

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"Has your experience with ME3/ME3 forums/ME3sites etc. affected your attitude etc etc etc .."

Yes to not pay attention to forums apart from a source of light amusement .

#342
Menagra

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Also I honestly don't understand this whole new thing about video games as art. They've been in the "fine art" world since 1999 with Mel Chin.

http://www.pbs.org/a...n/knowmad-1999

Modifié par infraredman, 01 mai 2012 - 03:29 .


#343
Michale_Jackson

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Well with the crap ending (and by that I'm not just talking about the point where you had to choose A, B, or C) but to the point where they made it so that everyone practically died prior to you meeting Casper. I forget the name the kid is suppose to be. But quite frankly I'm fed up with every little nuance Bioware added to try to over complex the storyline of ME3 and ultimately ruined the whole series.


What they did with ME3 is kind like what George Lucas did with the 3 prequels of Star Wars.

#344
PeterG1

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The game is what it is, I've expressed my grievances in much the same way as the other users on this forum. I won't get into that here.

But this forum and community has actually affected me and my impression (and enjoyment) of the game in a number of ways, some ways surprising to me, even! But to break it down into two ways:

1. I was never really active in this community until after I beat ME3. This is a great community full of smart, friendly, critical people who are great to talk to about subjects (this game!) we're passionate about. It's been a lot of fun and I've learned a lot about BW, the franchise, and us. That has been wholly positive!!

2. I understand--for a number of reasons BW has already implied--why we don't get as much interaction from the BW development team. I don't blame them for not interacting with us. But it is a bit of a downer for me. It would be very cool to get some solid and productive rhetoric going from the dev team (and ideally the creative heads of the dev team) about the game and, yes, about the endings in particular. Name calling and various sophomoric dialog aside (I know it would be tough on the forums for the dev team to wade through the trolling), it doesn't make a ton of sense as to why we don't see more interaction from them. Yea they could be busy, and that's certainly understandable, but I think the main reason we don't hear much interaction from them is because they believe they've told us all they want to tell us right now. Which isn't much, but I think they think they've said all they want to say now and are working on the EC

2a. There's a flaw with that, though. I believe to many of us in the community (particularly those who are okay with spoilers and usually reside on the "spoliers allowed" forum) are over any sort of creative and story-related surprises. In other words: we don't much care to be enlightened or surprised or entertained by the EC. We just want to know what they're thinking. In a meta- sense, tell us what you're thinking about the ending, about our reactions, about whether or not you can "see" [a significant chunk of] our perspective, about whether or not we sound like children or are voicing legitimate topics. Then tell us about the EC. Sure, I'll take the spoilers. What are you developing? What's exciting you about it? What's scaring you about it? What are your thoughts on those who want xxx or yyy. Believe me, I think Gamble or someone in Boston a few weeks ago said they didn't want to comment on IT or other possible ending theories because they don't want to break anyone's interpretations and let people speculate. While I can appreciate that, we're really outside of the game as a story and enlightening-generator. We're looking for meta- responses now. Whether or not it was a "dream" doesn't matter to many of us anymore because these theories are fueled not by the excitement or enjoyment we got from the endings. They're fueled by confusion and regret.

2b. But the above is asking for way too much, I understand. Don't mean I'd like to voice it here, though. But we won't hear anything about it.

#345
b09boy

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Chris Priestly wrote...

To those who have had a negative expereince here (other posters, mods, me, whatever) what can be done to improve your experience here in the future?


Just speaking in general for Bioware as a whole, put you money where your mouth is.  Everything you say is going to come under heavy scrutiny and won't be entirely believed unless you show it off.  This was sort of a marketing difference that we saw changed a lot since Origins.  During Origns someone might say, "this game has this, this and that," and there would be a video acompanying that explicitly, and proudly, showing those features.  If someone said choices mattered, there'd be a video or two showing off a part of the game played multiple ways.  If there were spell combos, they were showed off.  After Origins this sort of marketing fell off in all of Bioware's projects.

Basically, don't talk about a project until you have something to show for it, then once you do have something to show only talk about what you're willing to hand out publically.

Generally speaking, I had a very negative reaction to ME3, the way Bioware promoted it, and the way critics talked about it.  The game felt horribly rushed, started and ended horribly, relegated too many characters to cameo roles, forgot its identity, was filled with plot holes, had terrible sidequests, contained far too few choices both in dialogue and in general, and relied on combat to pad out the length overly much rather than the idea of story and adventure, making combat grow boring after awhile.  The way Bioware promoted the game was nothing less than dishonest and it seemed like there was a lot of reading between the lines being done to get any information.  It seemed rare that people would bluntly confirm or deny features and instead would state some obscure line which seemed positive, but could be taken a number of different ways.  This does not help me trust the company or the people working for it, and does not leave me with a positive image.  Finally, the media surrounding the game refused to crticize it.  It was left to users to figure out what all was wrong and only after the fact did the media begin to address the backlash.  That's crap.  It's no coincidence that few, if any, reviews even made mention of the ending, or how horrible the beginning/demo intro was.  All this just makes me want to ignore Bioware completely then look toward general consensus of the games long after they're released, when their prices have dropped and my investment in them is lower.

Modifié par b09boy, 01 mai 2012 - 04:16 .


#346
Celtic Latino

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simfamSP wrote...

Yes it has... until I buy a new BioWare game that is. These forums always do that. I remember that I liked DA2. Then when on the forums, my opinion shifted so far that I ended up hating it. Then I go and replay and end up loving it.

When your around negativity for that long it's bound to have a negative effect on you. Right now I'm apathetic with everything BioWare. Once I get my grubby hands on the EC I'll say "what the hell was I thinking?"

And then a new game is released...and the cycle continues.


I have to agree with this. 

I see the shortcomings for all games because no game is perfect. 

I remember loving Mass Effect 2 when it came out but then I've complained about the lack of roleplaying and gameplay 

I was obsessed with Mass Effect 3, preorder and release-buy and all, and I find myself agreeing with the gripes about the game. But I still play it. 

And for the record I love Dragon Age 2. Sadly no amount of fan backlash or whining could change that ^_^

I am looking forward to more ME games and BW releases. 

#347
TygerHeart

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I'll probably buy the next one. DA2 had a much more negative impact on me than ME3 did. I'm not happy with the ending, but DA2 was just weak compared to ... any other Bioware game I've played. (Apparently enough people agree with me to put DA2 in the Wal-Mart $20 bin while the Awakening expansion stays $30 and locked up.)

I was pretty sad when I couldn't play NWN on my old PC while my new one was in the shop. (either I'm missing a patch before the ones on the Atari FTP, or it doesn't like my video card.).

That being said... the ending from ME3 is just as weak as DA2.

So I'll probably buy it, but not on launch day again.

#348
Humanoid_Typhoon

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I learned that people who wear the "Shepard deserves better fans" sig don't understand the irony.
Also that mostly peaceful demonstration is the same thing as strapping a bomb to you chest and going to BW offices, also that "We are listening" and " F--k off" mean the same thing.

Also BioWare and EA have the worst PR machine ever.



Ever.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 01 mai 2012 - 06:00 .


#349
WaffleCrab

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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I learned that people who wear the "Shepard deserves better fans" sig don't understand the irony.
Also that mostly peaceful demonstration is the same thing as strapping a bomb to you chest and going to BW offices, also that "We are listening" and " F--k off" mean the same thing.

Also BioWare and EA have the worst PR machine ever.



Ever.

seconded :D

Modifié par WaffleCrab, 01 mai 2012 - 10:03 .


#350
Syfoor

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if you guys can remember that episode of south park, when cartman asked his mom to get him an iPad and mom could only get him Toshiba Handybook, and what cartman responded to that, thats the only thing im willing to say to BW now. i know its only a game, but i declared this as best video game series of all time, got alot of my friends hooked on ME games, and all the fun we had discussing them, its all gone. really BW, you god damn killed your series with the endings. alot important things that you said turned out as lies, and you changed my view on video game companies forever. thats all, and its sad.