622 réponses à ce sujet

[liggy002]

cachx wrote...

 The thing about Indoctrination theory, at least for me, is that is only acceptable if it stays a theory. 

Having an official validation of it would destroy the appeal.

You mean just end the game with Shepard waking up and not have any kind of conclusion after that?  That's a terrible idea.  That also means we'll never know what happened to Harbinger most likely.

[2papercuts]

liggy002 wrote...

cachx wrote...

 The thing about Indoctrination theory, at least for me, is that is only acceptable if it stays a theory. 

Having an official validation of it would destroy the appeal.

You mean just end the game with Shepard waking up and not have any kind of conclusion after that?  That's a terrible idea.  That also means we'll never know what happened to Harbinger most likely.

 
But leaving it ambiguous just for speculation is insulting, it's like moving for the sake of motion. Story's with ambiguous endings should have thematic support for doing so, not just having the ambiguity for ambiguity's sake

[ashwind]

KevShep wrote...

No. What I "perceive" to be there is speculations, but what is in the game CAN BE SEEN AND HEARED! THAT is the evidence!

You just said that it was never intended to be the I.T.? How do you know that? dont be a hypocrite if your going to say that Iam being contradicting.

If you go to the catalyst as fast as you can the catalyst says somthing different then "wake up"...He says "what are you doing here" as if he is not ready for you. This also fits with indoctrination. 

I said that the ending is never intended to be indoctrination with certainty in response to your certainty. If you are certain that IT is intended, I am certain that IT is NOT intended or are IT believers all so arrogant that they refuse to analyze actual data but insists on telling us their interpretations are irrefutable evidence. 

Oh yeah? Show me a vid that you have HIGH EMS and the Catalyst does not say "Wake up". Show me a vid with LOW EMS that the Catalyst does not say "What are you doing here". Try going in with 3500+ EMS and RUN as fast as you can and get him to say "Why are you here". Try going with < 1600 EMS and get him to say "Wake Up"

You do not SEE this contradiction?? The Reapers are NOT prepared for you and has NO Chance of indoctrinating you because what, your EMS SUCKS!!! Because that is what IT says, if you have LOW EMS, if you SUCK, you only get to DESTROY!!!! INDOCTRINATION ATTEMPTS ALWAYS FAIL!!!

If you cannot fathom such simple logic, I rest my case. Yeah, indoctrination theory rulez!!! so much "evidence"!!! The king with his invisible suit that only the "wise" can see. 

[HellishFiend]

ashwind wrote...

KevShep wrote...

No. What I "perceive" to be there is speculations, but what is in the game CAN BE SEEN AND HEARED! THAT is the evidence!

You just said that it was never intended to be the I.T.? How do you know that? dont be a hypocrite if your going to say that Iam being contradicting.

If you go to the catalyst as fast as you can the catalyst says somthing different then "wake up"...He says "what are you doing here" as if he is not ready for you. This also fits with indoctrination. 

I said that the ending is never intended to be indoctrination with certainty in response to your certainty. If you are certain that IT is intended, I am certain that IT is NOT intended or are IT believers all so arrogant that they refuse to analyze actual data but insists on telling us their interpretations are irrefutable evidence. 

Oh yeah? Show me a vid that you have HIGH EMS and the Catalyst does not say "Wake up". Show me a vid with LOW EMS that the Catalyst does not say "What are you doing here". Try going in with 3500+ EMS and RUN as fast as you can and get him to say "Why are you here". Try going with < 1600 EMS and get him to say "Wake Up"

You do not SEE this contradiction?? The Reapers are NOT prepared for you and has NO Chance of indoctrinating you because what, your EMS SUCKS!!! Because that is what IT says, if you have LOW EMS, if you SUCK, you only get to DESTROY!!!! INDOCTRINATION ATTEMPTS ALWAYS FAIL!!!

If you cannot fathom such simple logic, I rest my case. Yeah, indoctrination theory rulez!!! so much "evidence"!!! The king with his invisible suit that only the "wise" can see. 

I think you misunderstand the Indoctrination Theory on several key points. The theory states that if your EMS is low, the reapers dont need to indoctrinate you, not that they cant indoctrinate you. 

[stevefox1200]

It just makes me wonder what his "best ending is"

Indoc guys, no offense, you should just give it up

You have already put in more effort and care into your story than the writes and its pretty clear that they are just don't care

[HellishFiend]

stevefox1200 wrote...

It just makes me wonder what his "best ending is"

Indoc guys, no offense, you should just give it up

You have already put in more effort and care into your story than the writes and its pretty clear that they are just don't care

No thanks; we're enjoying ourselves. In general, we are actually excited and optimistic for the EC, unlike most. 

[stevefox1200]

HellishFiend wrote...

No thanks; we're enjoying ourselves. In general, we are actually excited and optimistic for the EC, unlike most. 

I get it

Speculation can be a lot of fun when you reach a common theroy that makes sense

I used to roll with the silent hill fans so I am not really one to point fingers

[ashwind]

HellishFiend wrote...

ashwind wrote...

KevShep wrote...

No. What I "perceive" to be there is speculations, but what is in the game CAN BE SEEN AND HEARED! THAT is the evidence!

You just said that it was never intended to be the I.T.? How do you know that? dont be a hypocrite if your going to say that Iam being contradicting.

If you go to the catalyst as fast as you can the catalyst says somthing different then "wake up"...He says "what are you doing here" as if he is not ready for you. This also fits with indoctrination. 

I said that the ending is never intended to be indoctrination with certainty in response to your certainty. If you are certain that IT is intended, I am certain that IT is NOT intended or are IT believers all so arrogant that they refuse to analyze actual data but insists on telling us their interpretations are irrefutable evidence. 

Oh yeah? Show me a vid that you have HIGH EMS and the Catalyst does not say "Wake up". Show me a vid with LOW EMS that the Catalyst does not say "What are you doing here". Try going in with 3500+ EMS and RUN as fast as you can and get him to say "Why are you here". Try going with < 1600 EMS and get him to say "Wake Up"

You do not SEE this contradiction?? The Reapers are NOT prepared for you and has NO Chance of indoctrinating you because what, your EMS SUCKS!!! Because that is what IT says, if you have LOW EMS, if you SUCK, you only get to DESTROY!!!! INDOCTRINATION ATTEMPTS ALWAYS FAIL!!!

If you cannot fathom such simple logic, I rest my case. Yeah, indoctrination theory rulez!!! so much "evidence"!!! The king with his invisible suit that only the "wise" can see. 

I think you misunderstand the Indoctrination Theory on several key points. The theory states that if your EMS is low, the reapers dont need to indoctrinate you, not that they cant indoctrinate you. 

So if your EMS sucks enough, you get to blow the Reapers away, the price is simply taking Earth and all the fleets together. Make sense.

So, tell me, did the Reapers and Earth blew up if you have low EMS? They dont need to indoctrinate you so you can blow them away??? Because there is only 1 option - blow them away. And that is clearly NOT a dream because they dont want to indoctrinate you due to your super sucky EMS, so that they can be blown away.

Explain please.

[DnVill]

nah... Bioware lost it. Period

Much like politicians with bloated salaries, they just tell you what you want to hear then do the exact opposite thing.

[HellishFiend]

stevefox1200 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

No thanks; we're enjoying ourselves. In general, we are actually excited and optimistic for the EC, unlike most. 

I get it

Speculation can be a lot of fun when you reach a common theroy that makes sense

I used to roll with the silent hill fans so I am not really one to point fingers

I've done my fair share of speculating on Silent Hill 2 also. That was fun. =) Unfortunately we were never in the position to have our theories confirmed or proven wrong. Fortunately in the case of ME3 we will eventually get to see what the truth is!

[im commander shep]

I asked him on twitter what his best ending is. Until we know what that its hard to make any assumptions about the ending. Especially as he has more info than us.

[HellishFiend]

ashwind wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

ashwind wrote...

KevShep wrote...

No. What I "perceive" to be there is speculations, but what is in the game CAN BE SEEN AND HEARED! THAT is the evidence!

You just said that it was never intended to be the I.T.? How do you know that? dont be a hypocrite if your going to say that Iam being contradicting.

If you go to the catalyst as fast as you can the catalyst says somthing different then "wake up"...He says "what are you doing here" as if he is not ready for you. This also fits with indoctrination. 

I said that the ending is never intended to be indoctrination with certainty in response to your certainty. If you are certain that IT is intended, I am certain that IT is NOT intended or are IT believers all so arrogant that they refuse to analyze actual data but insists on telling us their interpretations are irrefutable evidence. 

Oh yeah? Show me a vid that you have HIGH EMS and the Catalyst does not say "Wake up". Show me a vid with LOW EMS that the Catalyst does not say "What are you doing here". Try going in with 3500+ EMS and RUN as fast as you can and get him to say "Why are you here". Try going with < 1600 EMS and get him to say "Wake Up"

You do not SEE this contradiction?? The Reapers are NOT prepared for you and has NO Chance of indoctrinating you because what, your EMS SUCKS!!! Because that is what IT says, if you have LOW EMS, if you SUCK, you only get to DESTROY!!!! INDOCTRINATION ATTEMPTS ALWAYS FAIL!!!

If you cannot fathom such simple logic, I rest my case. Yeah, indoctrination theory rulez!!! so much "evidence"!!! The king with his invisible suit that only the "wise" can see. 

I think you misunderstand the Indoctrination Theory on several key points. The theory states that if your EMS is low, the reapers dont need to indoctrinate you, not that they cant indoctrinate you. 

So if your EMS sucks enough, you get to blow the Reapers away, the price is simply taking Earth and all the fleets together. Make sense.

So, tell me, did the Reapers and Earth blew up if you have low EMS? They dont need to indoctrinate you so you can blow them away??? Because there is only 1 option - blow them away. And that is clearly NOT a dream because they dont want to indoctrinate you due to your super sucky EMS, so that they can be blown away.

Explain please.

Again your post is demonstrating a basic misunderstanding of the IT in general. You really should read up on it more, or watch more of the videos on youtube. You seem to be under the impression that the ending Destroy sequence actually happens in the context of IT, when it acutally doesnt. It's in his head. 

In the context of the IT, if your "EMS sucks enough", the reapers dont put forth much effort trying to indoctrinate you, so they provide you with only one choice - the one you would most likely have "naturally" picked based on whether or not you saved the collector base in me2. If you saved the collector base (most people destroyed it, hence destroy being the typical low-EMS option), you are presented only with the control option. 

Further, the IT states that in the EC, Shepard will "wake up" following the indoctrination sequence (meaning the "endings" as we currently see them simply happened in Shepard's head), and events will play out based on the decision (or non-decision) you made. If the reapers abandoned their attempt to indoctrinate you because they deemed it unnecessary (low EMS), I would imagine that the results will be just as bad as if Shepard becomes indoctrinated with high EMS. 

[Peranor]

Xellith wrote...

twitter.com/#!/GambleMike/status/195308506214187008

Mike Gamble said...

Personally, I don't think the best ending is destroy, actually.

Looking more and more likely that the ending we got was actually real and Bioware just completely forgot how to make a decent RPG right at the end.

This clarification DLC seems like its going to clear up that it wasnt indoctrination and that the ending just sucks.  Seems its likely part of their "artistic vision" to have a sucky ending.

Maybe that have some epic ME2 quality dlc planned?  /shrug

Well. It's been fairly obvious that BioWare always has considerd the green space-rape ending as the best ending. Even if you disregard the moral aspects of the green ending it's just silly.

But with that said it's always been fairly obvious that the indoc theory never been more then just a theory. A well crafted and interesting theory I might add. But in the end it's just straw-grasping. A desperate act to try and make the ending something it isn't just because people hate it so much.

[ashwind]

HellishFiend wrote...


Again your post is demonstrating a basic misunderstanding of the IT in general. You really should read up on it more, or watch more of the videos on youtube. You seem to be under the impression that the ending Destroy sequence actually happens in the context of IT, when it acutally doesnt. It's in his head. 

In the context of the IT, if your "EMS sucks enough", the reapers dont put forth much effort trying to indoctrinate you, so they provide you with only one choice - the one you would most likely have "naturally" picked based on whether or not you saved the collector base in me2. If you saved the collector base (most people destroyed it, hence destroy being the typical low-EMS option), you are presented only with the control option. 

Further, the IT states that in the EC, Shepard will "wake up" following the indoctrination sequence (meaning the "endings" as we currently see them simply happened in Shepard's head), and events will play out based on the decision (or non-decision) you made. If the reapers abandoned their attempt to indoctrinate you because they deemed it unnecessary (low EMS), I would imagine that the results will be just as bad as if Shepard becomes indoctrinated with high EMS. 

I understand that theory just fine. I understand it well enough to not be able to believe in it. There are in game and out of game implications that will destroy the series save for the absolute minority who believed in IT.

Many dont like the ending, I dont like the ending but not liking the ending does not mean we have to take in IT. You do not rinse your mouth with urine when you have crap in your mouth. The current ending is crap and IT urine.

So if you have low enough EMS, the Reapers.... play with your head so that they... have fun? Have a good laugh. Give you one pathetic option to... ? 

If you relate Control to being indoctrinated, saving the collector base with sucky EMS will always result in your indoctrination.

If you relate Destroy to resisting indoctrination, destroying the collector base 
with sucky EMS  always results in fighting off indoctrination.

Either way, your destiny is fixed. For most, we win. Oh no... we lose because of EMS, so, the Reapers purposely made a 100% fail indoctrination attempt for? Pure stupidity?

Everything is in Shepard's head. Low EMS, Base Destroyed. Weak fleet that poses no threat to the Reapers, why does the Reaper mess with your mind? With ~1200 EMS, the fleet is as good as DEAD, why even attempt indoctrination? Oh yeah... they have greater plans blah blah blah. Nobody could ever come up with a compelling argument why they wanted to indoctrinate Shepard in the first place if he is NOT at the Citadel, if he is lying on earth basically not being able to do anything. 

Again, the fleets are getting hammered up there, even when I brought 7000+ EMS. Hammer still get wack like wet tissue paper. How is me waking up "unindoctrinated" going to be any better!?

Explain to me WHY would Reapers waste energy on a peon whose fleet is about to be annihilated and attempt a 100% fail indoctrination attempt?

All the IT is attempting to do is create a theory that hopefully will nullify the ending and allow Bioware to create a new one to replace it. To say that it is pre-planned is a bit far fetched.

[HellishFiend]

ashwind, to quote Shepard, "you're angry, I get it". I dont really relish the thought of taking this discussion any further, since you're already at the point of using words like crap and urine. I've said what I had to say in response to your original issue (which was already full of angry caps, bold, and multiple exclamation points), but since you've already made up your mind, there is not much else I should say.

[Auralius Carolus]

THAT is a blow to the ribs? THAT???

That's weaker than 90% of IT evidence. Some people may not like the IT, and that's perfectly fine, but don't bring a knife to a gun fight and boast about it.

[Erield]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

THAT is a blow to the ribs? THAT???

That's weaker than 90% of IT evidence. Some people may not like the IT, and that's perfectly fine, but don't bring a knife to a gun fight and boast about it.

Actually, it's at least as strong evidence as anything IT has.  It's not like it's Random Peon 00342695 saying that, after all.

IT specifically assumes that if you do not pick Destroy with a high EMS, you lose.  How is losing and failing to stop the Reapers due to becoming indoctrinated equate to a better ending than surviving, resisting their greatest weapon, and defeating them?  Seriously, how?

[inusannonn]

I thought for sure at the 3second "gasp for air" moment that a mini reaper was going to burst out from Shepards chest like in the movie aliens.

But a mini reaper wearing a top hat and cane doin alittle dance on Shepards dead corpse.

But seriously at that moment I thought a mini reaper was going to burst thru his corpse or crawl out of his mouth. Kinda like a Deadspace sorta scene.

Modifié par inusannonn, 26 avril 2012 - 07:12 .

[Elite Midget]

Well, Indoc would have cost extra money and work to put in.

A huge no-no for EA. So we're just getting more multi-rainbow explosions and Starchild whispering more lies while giving us no chance to dispute them or not pick his choices.

[Chris Readman]

HellishFiend wrote...

Again your post is demonstrating a basic misunderstanding of the IT in general. You really should read up on it more, or watch more of the videos on youtube. You seem to be under the impression that the ending Destroy sequence actually happens in the context of IT, when it acutally doesnt. It's in his head. 

In the context of the IT, if your "EMS sucks enough", the reapers dont put forth much effort trying to indoctrinate you, so they provide you with only one choice - the one you would most likely have "naturally" picked based on whether or not you saved the collector base in me2. If you saved the collector base (most people destroyed it, hence destroy being the typical low-EMS option), you are presented only with the control option. 

Further, the IT states that in the EC, Shepard will "wake up" following the indoctrination sequence (meaning the "endings" as we currently see them simply happened in Shepard's head), and events will play out based on the decision (or non-decision) you made. If the reapers abandoned their attempt to indoctrinate you because they deemed it unnecessary (low EMS), I would imagine that the results will be just as bad as if Shepard becomes indoctrinated with high EMS. 

Okay, so if they did not put much effort in the indoctrination, why did they go through the whole Anderson and TIM ordeal? That seems to be the most effort of indoctrination if you follow the IT.

How would the result be the same with low EMS? If we follow the destroy ending, we would probably still follow something along the lines of the destroy ending when we wake up. Sure, they would damage all the humans and aliens gathered in the Sol sytem, but the reapers would be eradicated as well and they won't be able to fulfill their purpose for further cycles.That is not beneficial for them at all.

Also, why bother with the indoctrination at all? Any reaper or their henchmen could have come down to destroy Shepard in order to save them from the hassle. So why is indoctrination necessary at this point?

Modifié par Chris Readman, 26 avril 2012 - 07:39 .

[Sangheili_1337]

Im surprised people are still holding on to the indoctrination theory. Bioware pretty much confirmed that IT does not play a role in their extended cut press release. Just have to accept the fact that Bioware wasn't being clever and really did put their dozens of plot holes and inconsistencies without realizing it.

[Wabajakka]

Also the guy who said "If you guys knew what we're planning, you'd keep your copy of ME3 forever"

*Sigh*

We really just need to wait and see...

[TreguardD]

Quite frankly, I'm suspecting Mr. Gamble was, perhaps intentionally, kicking a hornet's nest.

...but I really hate Transhumanism.

[d-boy15]

He like synthasis ending, that's all...

bioware present it at the best ending but it's look like many peoples didn't think that way.

[dreman9999]

HiddenKING wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DTKT wrote...

Stop it now.

You can't prove he's not real. He can't prove that he's real. Find something else to argue about.

The fact that he show up agien as the catalyst puts it in question.  How does the catalyst know about the boy?  Why is the ending so odd? Is the star child telling the truth? Why is it helping me?
Then add in this list...
fact 1. People are
indoctrinated by being near reapers and reaper tech. 

fact 2. People that
at are under the process of indoctrination here whispers.

Fact 3.Shepard is
near allot of reaper tech through out ME1 and ME2.

Fact 4. Shepard is
hit by an indoctrination field in the arrival dlc, in which he see's visions
and hears voices....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5vKMfh6gBk

fact5.Indoctrination does not just go
away...http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Rana_Thanoptis



'If Rana survived
Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, she will appear in an ANN Report on
indoctrination. She has apparently murdered several top asari officials and
then committed suicide. While in custody, Thanoptis reported "voices"
in her head (a typical symptom of indoctrination) to investigators."



Fact 6. The reapers can manipulate
dreams...http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ldIJFRvDUp4#t=690s

The reseachers on project rho in Arrival also taked about strange dreams  when they were being indoctrinated.

http://www.youtube.c...YTITiTw#t=249s 

[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">Fact 7. ] [/color]

[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">The third discovery is that the object broadcasts signals and information on many different spectra. One such pulse, suspected to be similar to a quantum entanglement communicator, reaches into. Another broadcast is infrasound, consistent with frequencies that trigger feelings of awe and fear in , a known factor in Reaper ]. Kenson's laboratory is filled with equipment dedicated to monitoring any signal coming from the artifact in the hopes that some clue will prove the Reapers' undoing before it's too late. "[/color]

Fact 8. You hear whispers in sheps dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related 
....
That add alot more be questioned....
Really, can anyone prove that the ending really happened?

Point 3 and 4 aren't facts.

My main gripe with the Indoctrination theory is that it must hold true to all Shepards. Default doesn't do sidequests, and if I import a Shepard with no sidequests and/or DLC, the only contact Shepard has had with Reaper and/or Reaper artifacts is durin the Derelict Reaper mission.

If you don't have/do Arrival, Hackett sends a team of marines instead. 

Point 7 can't really be considered fact either, when it says "...suspected to be similar..." 

3 and 4 are facts.  If you think they arn't then you did not play ME1 or 2. You walk inside of a dead reaper for god sake.
And for arrival. It 's part of the plot, the story is still written with it based in the plot.
Point 7 is also a fact. That ishow reaper indoctinationdivices work as well as how reaper send and reseave info from slepper agents.
They are all facts.