622 réponses à ce sujet

[Benny8484]

They just need to flat out rewrite the endings.  The current 3 options are unaccepable. 

[Elite Midget]

ashwind wrote...

KevShep wrote...

No. What I "perceive" to be there is speculations, but what is in the game CAN BE SEEN AND HEARED! THAT is the evidence!

You just said that it was never intended to be the I.T.? How do you know that? dont be a hypocrite if your going to say that Iam being contradicting.

If you go to the catalyst as fast as you can the catalyst says somthing different then "wake up"...He says "what are you doing here" as if he is not ready for you. This also fits with indoctrination. 

I said that the ending is never intended to be indoctrination with certainty in response to your certainty. If you are certain that IT is intended, I am certain that IT is NOT intended or are IT believers all so arrogant that they refuse to analyze actual data but insists on telling us their interpretations are irrefutable evidence. 

Oh yeah? Show me a vid that you have HIGH EMS and the Catalyst does not say "Wake up". Show me a vid with LOW EMS that the Catalyst does not say "What are you doing here". Try going in with 3500+ EMS and RUN as fast as you can and get him to say "Why are you here". Try going with < 1600 EMS and get him to say "Wake Up"

You do not SEE this contradiction?? The Reapers are NOT prepared for you and has NO Chance of indoctrinating you because what, your EMS SUCKS!!! Because that is what IT says, if you have LOW EMS, if you SUCK, you only get to DESTROY!!!! INDOCTRINATION ATTEMPTS ALWAYS FAIL!!!

If you cannot fathom such simple logic, I rest my case. Yeah, indoctrination theory rulez!!! so much "evidence"!!! The king with his invisible suit that only the "wise" can see. 

...Wow. If you're going to bash the theory at least know what it is.

[Cirreus]

Benny8484 wrote...

They just need to flat out rewrite the endings.  The current 3 options are unaccepable. 

IT is/was great because it is/was a mental excuse for the sh*t that is called Mass Effect 3. It's able to excuse alot of bad game designs (like the begining) all the way to the end. I believe Bioware isn't commenting on IT because it's not entirely false. But it's no where what Bioware intended. We (fans) came to the IT theory out of desperation, not intention from the writers. My best guess is IT theory goes only as far as the space brat's child like form from Sherpard's visions.

I have sneaking suspicion that there isn't 3 options at the end either. We've had a destruction ending in both ME1 & ME2 with Reng/Para options on them. I'm thinking Bioware wanted (in complete dellusion) that Control/Renegade & Synthesis/Paragon was the intent with Destroy being canon for post ME3 story lore.

[Omega2079]

He just prefers either blue or green over red. Colors are important, ya know.

[Auralius Carolus]

Erield wrote...

Actually, it's at least as strong evidence as anything IT has.  It's not like it's Random Peon 00342695 saying that, after all.

IT specifically assumes that if you do not pick Destroy with a high EMS, you lose.  How is losing and failing to stop the Reapers due to becoming indoctrinated equate to a better ending than surviving, resisting their greatest weapon, and defeating them?  Seriously, how?

#1. The basis for IT is deception and intentional ambiguity. Did you get one of the 16 wildly varying endings you were promised and not a "Door A B or C" option? If not, you've either been lied to by "Not Random Peon 00342695" or we haven't seen those endings yet. The weight of the dev team leaders' words have already been brought into question; why does the same croud project such words as blatent lies one moment, then gospel the next?

#2. The "You lose" notion for anything but high-level Destroy was an early observation based around the "breath" scene at the end. Since then, the matter has evolved with findings in the certain code fragments reinforcing the notion that Destroy is unique and significant, but not the "only" way. All three "Destroy" ending choices are recorded in the code of your save game transferable, but there is no distinction for Synth or Control. Given the history of Bioware's choice system, you will likely suffer the concequences of choosing poorly or going unprepared, but not get the "you lose" screen.

#3. There is narrative ground for the IT that extends to the Arrival DLC and is foreshadowed as far back, in canon, as the First Contact War. This narrative ground progresses predictabley up until the end of the game utilizing the plot device of Shepard's unconcious mind.

#4. The anomolies found in Shepard's dreams, as well as the reoccuring and intensifying nightmares themselves, are all noted in reality with exposure to heightened levels of EMF Fields. At least some of the designers were familiar with the effects of certain energy frequency exposure to use it in the indoctrination lore, so it is not unthinkable that they were also familiar with how it has been observed, in notable cases, in the field. On a side note, the audio file series, wwise_norhub_dreams.### line, has revealed the name "Harbinger" three times as well as one distinct Reaper horn. These sfx features are largely masked, but still audible, in the dreams by the overlapping of the the files being played or by what appears to be the intentional lowering of sfx volue during the files institution.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg, sans most of the detail including audio processing feeds from the files, standard narrative format examples, etc. The IT has progressed to the point that those original threads and movies are now obsolete.

[HiddenKING]

dreman9999 wrote...

HiddenKING wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DTKT wrote...

Stop it now.

You can't prove he's not real. He can't prove that he's real. Find something else to argue about.

The fact that he show up agien as the catalyst puts it in question.  How does the catalyst know about the boy?  Why is the ending so odd? Is the star child telling the truth? Why is it helping me?
Then add in this list...
fact 1. People are
indoctrinated by being near reapers and reaper tech. 

fact 2. People that
at are under the process of indoctrination here whispers.

Fact 3.Shepard is
near allot of reaper tech through out ME1 and ME2.

Fact 4. Shepard is
hit by an indoctrination field in the arrival dlc, in which he see's visions
and hears voices....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5vKMfh6gBk

fact5.Indoctrination does not just go
away...http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Rana_Thanoptis



'If Rana survived
Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, she will appear in an ANN Report on
indoctrination. She has apparently murdered several top asari officials and
then committed suicide. While in custody, Thanoptis reported "voices"
in her head (a typical symptom of indoctrination) to investigators."



Fact 6. The reapers can manipulate
dreams...http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ldIJFRvDUp4#t=690s

The reseachers on project rho in Arrival also taked about strange dreams  when they were being indoctrinated.

http://www.youtube.c...YTITiTw#t=249s 

[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">Fact 7. ] [/color]

[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">The third discovery is that the object broadcasts signals and information on many different spectra. One such pulse, suspected to be similar to a quantum entanglement communicator, reaches into. Another broadcast is infrasound, consistent with frequencies that trigger feelings of awe and fear in , a known factor in Reaper ]. Kenson's laboratory is filled with equipment dedicated to monitoring any signal coming from the artifact in the hopes that some clue will prove the Reapers' undoing before it's too late. "[/color]

Fact 8. You hear whispers in sheps dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related 
....
That add alot more be questioned....
Really, can anyone prove that the ending really happened?

Point 3 and 4 aren't facts.

My main gripe with the Indoctrination theory is that it must hold true to all Shepards. Default doesn't do sidequests, and if I import a Shepard with no sidequests and/or DLC, the only contact Shepard has had with Reaper and/or Reaper artifacts is durin the Derelict Reaper mission.

If you don't have/do Arrival, Hackett sends a team of marines instead. 

Point 7 can't really be considered fact either, when it says "...suspected to be similar..." 

3 and 4 are facts.  If you think they arn't then you did not play ME1 or 2. You walk inside of a dead reaper for god sake.
And for arrival. It 's part of the plot, the story is still written with it based in the plot.
Point 7 is also a fact. That ishow reaper indoctinationdivices work as well as how reaper send and reseave info from slepper agents.
They are all facts.

Why is it that everytime some disagrees with you (not sayin you as in you, but you as in general) they have not played the games? 

The only prolonged contact Shepard has (i.e. part of the plot and not side-mission or DLC) is the Derelict Reaper. And Shepard doesn't spend days on it. We know Indoctrination takes days. Or a week for strong-minded individuals.

The events of Arrival are a part of the plot and occur. But if you don't do it, or you don't have the DLC or start a default Shepard. Then Shepard isn't involved at all, Hackett sends a team of Marines instead, no survivors. 

[Necrotron]

The best ending is obviously to die trying before you reach the citadel.

Indoctrination Theory never really existed, it was simply a coping mechanism with trying to keep faith in Bioware.

[Breakdown Boy]

The whole point of destroy is the best is because than the player is still incontrol of his mind when he wakes up in the rubble, then the final battle begins.

That's if indoc theory is real and not bioware creating this perfect build up by acident.

[DJBare]

Well done Mr Gamble, yeah, the boards were getting a little quiet, good call.

[lord_shift]

Whoa. That's my tweet he was responding to..

Honestly though, I don't trust any of the developers. Whether or not IT was intended, the point remains now is that the ending sucks. Mike personally believes either choosing Saren's or TIM's choice were better. I disagree. I chose Destroy/Red (despite making peace between the Geth and Quarians as well as hooking up EDI and Joker) because I cannot bring myself to exert my control over an entire species or homogenize entire species. Mike has his own reasons, just like every developer/writer does. I don't want to call them out on it saying it's reason for this or that, because, frankly, it's retarded.

If IT wasn't their intended ending, then I strongly believe they failed to capitalize on an immensely 4th-wall-smashing experience that I felt was the best ending to any game. On the other hand, if IT was their intended ending, then they screwed it up so badly that it lit the entire gaming industry and internet on fire.

Oh well, I personally am going to wait and see what the Extended Cut will show. I'm not holding out hope though - there's only so much polish you can apply to a plothole-ridden bucket full of turd ending to an immensely powerful and awesome series.

Modifié par lord_shift, 26 avril 2012 - 12:31 .

[OdanUrr]

lord_shift wrote...

Whoa. That's my tweet he was responding to..

Honestly though, I don't trust any of the developers. Whether or not IT was intended, the point remains now is that the ending sucks. Mike personally believes either choosing Saren's or TIM's choice were better. I disagree. I chose Destroy/Red (despite making peace between the Geth and Quarians as well as hooking up EDI and Joker) because I cannot bring myself to exert my control over an entire species or homogenize entire species. Mike has his own reasons, just like every developer/writer does. I don't want to call them out on it saying it's reason for this or that, because, frankly, it's retarded.

If IT wasn't their intended ending, then I strongly believe they failed to capitalize on an immensely 4th-wall-smashing experience that I felt was the best ending to any game. On the other hand, if IT was their intended ending, then they screwed it up so badly that it lit the entire gaming industry and internet on fire.

Oh well, I personally am going to wait and see what the Extended Cut will show. I'm not holding out hope though - there's only so much polish you can apply to a plothole-ridden bucket full of turd ending to an immensely powerful and awesome series.

I think we can all agree that IT wasn't their intended ending. Yes, the Final Hours App mentions the devs played with the idea of a mechanic that would have Shepard fall under Reaper control but this was ultimately dropped because there was a problem with the dialogue, if memory serves. The fact that due to fan backlash Bioware decided to create the EC only helps to strengthen this view. The EC wasn't planned ahead rather acted upon.

As for Mike Gamble preferring something other than Destroy, well, that's his choice. Mass Effect is supposed to be built around choice, whether it's a good choice or a bad choice.

[lord_shift]

OdanUrr wrote...

I think we can all agree that IT wasn't their intended ending. Yes, the Final Hours App mentions the devs played with the idea of a mechanic that would have Shepard fall under Reaper control but this was ultimately dropped because there was a problem with the dialogue, if memory serves. The fact that due to fan backlash Bioware decided to create the EC only helps to strengthen this view. The EC wasn't planned ahead rather acted upon.

As for Mike Gamble preferring something other than Destroy, well, that's his choice. Mass Effect is supposed to be built around choice, whether it's a good choice or a bad choice.

Agreed on all points. At this point, the more I think about EC and how BioWare has handled everything, they didn't ship IT even if they did try to implement it.

A small part of me, though, feels that the EC was planned, but not in its current state (free); but that's just based entirely on speculation (isn't that what everyone is supposed to be doing anyway?).

It was a fun ride, but what a crappy finish =/

Modifié par lord_shift, 26 avril 2012 - 12:51 .

[MegumiAzusa]

The IT guys often just see is a marine helping others and no one helping the kid while they miss the marine looking at the kid as it's behind the legs, but clearly visible if you watch the entire video. They also miss the helping marine and the not helping one are on two different shuttles.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 26 avril 2012 - 12:59 .

[tanuki]

Regarding the OP: now I'm honestly afraid that in the EC they'll add to red ending some more crap, like kill some other race except geth (quarians for example, with their synthetic implants and stuff, or all human biotics), just to try to make players choose the other color they consider "best". And maybe kill Shepard in the destroy ending too, regardless of EMS.

Because now I'm pretty sure most of the people just chose Desroy.

[psrz]

Well, I can see why they think "destroy" is not the best ending, since it's the only one that seems to get rid of their moronic and nonsensical creation called StarBrat....

[lord_shift]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

The IT guys often just see is a marine helping others and no one helping the kid while they miss the marine looking at the kid as it's behind the legs, but clearly visible if you watch the entire video. They also miss the helping marine and the not helping one are on two different shuttles.

In all fairness, it also looks like the marine is looking at the ship, ready to leave.

[MegumiAzusa]

lord_shift wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

The IT guys often just see is a marine helping others and no one helping the kid while they miss the marine looking at the kid as it's behind the legs, but clearly visible if you watch the entire video. They also miss the helping marine and the not helping one are on two different shuttles.

In all fairness, it also looks like the marine is looking at the ship, ready to leave.

As I said, watch the video, the marine starts looking as the kid starts to run for the shuttle.

[lord_shift]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

lord_shift wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

The IT guys often just see is a marine helping others and no one helping the kid while they miss the marine looking at the kid as it's behind the legs, but clearly visible if you watch the entire video. They also miss the helping marine and the not helping one are on two different shuttles.

In all fairness, it also looks like the marine is looking at the ship, ready to leave.

As I said, watch the video, the marine starts looking as the kid starts to run for the shuttle.

Hmm perhaps you're right. That particular point doesn't really negate that evidence of IT though, then again there are many variations so who knows at this point...

[davishepard]

Keep in denial.

[Chinirojo]

Even if they ruled out the IT, I'll just stay indoctrinated forever!

[lord_shift]

davishepard wrote...



Keep in denial.

Hah! Who cares anymore, really. Thanks to the ending, I just finish the game right after Kai Leng's battle and imagine how it plays out in my head (never thought I'd ever do that for a game). It's much better in there anyway.

[richard_rider]

davishepard wrote...



Keep in denial.

Yeah, that one kinda stings...IT or no IT...BW screwed the pooch.

[dreman9999]

HiddenKING wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

HiddenKING wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DTKT wrote...

Stop it now.

You can't prove he's not real. He can't prove that he's real. Find something else to argue about.

The fact that he show up agien as the catalyst puts it in question.  How does the catalyst know about the boy?  Why is the ending so odd? Is the star child telling the truth? Why is it helping me?
Then add in this list...
fact 1. People are
indoctrinated by being near reapers and reaper tech. 

fact 2. People that
at are under the process of indoctrination here whispers.

Fact 3.Shepard is
near allot of reaper tech through out ME1 and ME2.

Fact 4. Shepard is
hit by an indoctrination field in the arrival dlc, in which he see's visions
and hears voices....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5vKMfh6gBk

fact5.Indoctrination does not just go
away...http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Rana_Thanoptis



'If Rana survived
Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, she will appear in an ANN Report on
indoctrination. She has apparently murdered several top asari officials and
then committed suicide. While in custody, Thanoptis reported "voices"
in her head (a typical symptom of indoctrination) to investigators."



Fact 6. The reapers can manipulate
dreams...http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ldIJFRvDUp4#t=690s

The reseachers on project rho in Arrival also taked about strange dreams  when they were being indoctrinated.

http://www.youtube.c...YTITiTw#t=249s 

[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">Fact 7. ] [/color]

[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">The third discovery is that the object broadcasts signals and information on many different spectra. One such pulse, suspected to be similar to a quantum entanglement communicator, reaches into. Another broadcast is infrasound, consistent with frequencies that trigger feelings of awe and fear in , a known factor in Reaper ]. Kenson's laboratory is filled with equipment dedicated to monitoring any signal coming from the artifact in the hopes that some clue will prove the Reapers' undoing before it's too late. "[/color]

Fact 8. You hear whispers in sheps dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related 
....
That add alot more be questioned....
Really, can anyone prove that the ending really happened?

Point 3 and 4 aren't facts.

My main gripe with the Indoctrination theory is that it must hold true to all Shepards. Default doesn't do sidequests, and if I import a Shepard with no sidequests and/or DLC, the only contact Shepard has had with Reaper and/or Reaper artifacts is durin the Derelict Reaper mission.

If you don't have/do Arrival, Hackett sends a team of marines instead. 

Point 7 can't really be considered fact either, when it says "...suspected to be similar..." 

3 and 4 are facts.  If you think they arn't then you did not play ME1 or 2. You walk inside of a dead reaper for god sake.
And for arrival. It 's part of the plot, the story is still written with it based in the plot.
Point 7 is also a fact. That ishow reaper indoctinationdivices work as well as how reaper send and reseave info from slepper agents.
They are all facts.

Why is it that everytime some disagrees with you (not sayin you as in you, but you as in general) they have not played the games? 

The only prolonged contact Shepard has (i.e. part of the plot and not side-mission or DLC) is the Derelict Reaper. And Shepard doesn't spend days on it. We know Indoctrination takes days. Or a week for strong-minded individuals.

The events of Arrival are a part of the plot and occur. But if you don't do it, or you don't have the DLC or start a default Shepard. Then Shepard isn't involved at all, Hackett sends a team of Marines instead, no survivors. 

For one you flat out said 3 is not a fact. Shepard has been near reaper tech since ME1. To say 3 is not a fact is to say you were not paying attention.
Do you remeber Saren? He visited Sovergn in short  trip and still gotindoctrinated. Also, their is this...
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 

"Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals "
.....
It's not just the dead reaper I am talking about and for me to list them mean you forgot.

Reaper tech in ME1.


Dragons teeth.
the cerberus husk test colony
planet hush 1.(The mine filled with husk)
the abandon space ship filled with husk.
Saren himself, per husk and post husk.
Sovergn
Where you first saw sovergn and dragons teeth ..

Reaper tech in ME2.

Planet husk 2 with reaper indoctination device.
The derlic reaper.
The collectors.(And we fought them 3 times.)

......
Prolong can work two ways. It's ether the person in indoctrintion waves till they are indoctrinated or the come in contact with the waves alot and it stacks over time.
It stacked with Saren and Based on 3 it stacked on Shepard.

Arrival is still part of the plot, so any writing in ME3 still reflex what happen in it as partof the plot regardless if you did it or not. That just mean BW will right ME3 like arrival happend. That's clear based on the fact you're still held by the alliance in the intro.

It's funny you are going after point 3 and 4 because these point are the one that are the main link to Shepards indoctrination.
Regardless, 3 defenently happensif you didn't do arrival......IT has 2 nets in the case of Shepard start ofindoctrination.

Modifié par dreman9999, 26 avril 2012 - 02:01 .

[HiddenKING]

davishepard wrote...



Keep in denial.

Your point. You have none.

[dreman9999]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

The IT guys often just see is a marine helping others and no one helping the kid while they miss the marine looking at the kid as it's behind the legs, but clearly visible if you watch the entire video. They also miss the helping marine and the not helping one are on two different shuttles.

Do you where helmets? IF you do then you would know how much it narrow your feild of veiw. The look you're referencing too is not an angle anyne can see the kid nor even implies he is looking at the kid. 
Also, the kid is not in the scen eyou posted.

Modifié par dreman9999, 26 avril 2012 - 01:58 .