622 réponses à ce sujet

[CptData]

@davis

IT only explains the detached portion of the game between "Harbingers Beam" and the "Breathing scene". It does not give a closure at all - neither if the Reapers got defeated nor about the fate of the galaxy.

The only thing the IT gives is to kick open a door for fanfiction. That's all. Without the IT, that door remains closed. Shepard is separated from his/her crew, the crew is screwed, all Relays are gone. Period.

With the door for fanfic kicked open, the fandom can create own stuff to continue Shepard's story.

That's the only difference. If you don't like that - okay. No issue.


That's the short story. Sure, other IT-fans won't concur here. For me, it's enough to know the IT gives me a way to continue the story and ignore the horrible endings.

Modifié par CptData, 27 avril 2012 - 12:39 .

[davishepard]

IT only cuts off everything that makes the ending an ending. And IT doesn't only open a door to fanfiction, it's fanfiction itself.

The problem is, people think that they found hidden/subtle evidence that supports this fanfiction, and refuses to let go. People want that Bioware put this fanfiction in the game, ruining it. That's not gonna happen, but they refuse to see this.

[NoSpin]

davishepard wrote...

IT only cuts off everything that makes the ending an ending. And IT doesn't only open a door to fanfiction, it's fanfiction itself.

The problem is, people think that they found hidden/subtle evidence that supports this fanfiction, and refuses to let go. People want that Bioware put this fanfiction in the game, ruining it. That's not gonna happen, but they refuse to see this.

You can't ruin a game putting in something that is already there. And the Final Hours app shows that indoctrination was supposed to happen, whether you believe they cut it out entirely is up to you.

It isn't fanfiction until Bioware says it is, you can't prove it wrong, they can't prove it right.

[davishepard]

NoSpin wrote...

You can't ruin a game putting in something that is already there. And the Final Hours app shows that indoctrination was supposed to happen, whether you believe they cut it out entirely is up to you.

It isn't fanfiction until Bioware says it is, you can't prove it wrong, they can't prove it right.

Indocrination Theory is not part of the game. Periodo.

They said they would put indocrination, and didn't. It was scrapped.

You are wrong. It is fanfiction until they say that isn't. I don't need to prove that a fanfiction is wrong, the believers of this fanfiction are the ones that need to prove that it is right, and, they can't.

Modifié par davishepard, 27 avril 2012 - 12:54 .

[dreman9999]

davishepard wrote...

IT only cuts off everything that makes the ending an ending. And IT doesn't only open a door to fanfiction, it's fanfiction itself.

The problem is, people think that they found hidden/subtle evidence that supports this fanfiction, and refuses to let go. People want that Bioware put this fanfiction in the game, ruining it. That's not gonna happen, but they refuse to see this.

To say that what people found is just delution is to say indoctrination does not happen in ME.

Really, you're saying the star child and ME3 ending really happen and ignoring that fact  that the reapers can really mass with a persons mind?

[dreman9999]

davishepard wrote...

NoSpin wrote...

You can't ruin a game putting in something that is already there. And the Final Hours app shows that indoctrination was supposed to happen, whether you believe they cut it out entirely is up to you.

It isn't fanfiction until Bioware says it is, you can't prove it wrong, they can't prove it right.

Indocrination Theory is not part of the game. Periodo.

They said they would put indocrination, and didn't. It was scrapped.

You are wrong. It is fanfiction until they say that isn't. I don't need to prove that a fanfiction is wrong, the believers of this fanfiction are the ones that need to prove that it is right, and, they can't.

They said that they scrapped the game play portion, notthe story portion. To say IT isnot really is to say that  indoctrination was never part of ME's plot as a series.

[davishepard]

dreman9999 wrote...

To say that what people found is just delution is to say indoctrination does not happen in ME.

Really, you're saying the star child and ME3 ending really happen and ignoring that fact  that the reapers can really mass with a persons mind?

No. You are forcing absolutes. Indocrination happen through the hole series, and is clear enought to be noted. This doesn't imply that indocrination happens in ME3 ending.

The game shows that the events happened. Your or other one wish that they didn't doesn't make your fanfiction the truth.

The Reapers can mass with a person's mind, of course. Doesn't mean they messed with Shepard's in the ME3 ending.

Modifié par davishepard, 27 avril 2012 - 01:00 .

[darthoptimus003]

the IT has way to many holes in the logic sorry but it does the only way out of this is a new ending

[davishepard]

dreman9999 wrote...
They said that they scrapped the game play portion, notthe story portion. To say IT isnot really is to say that  indoctrination was never part of ME's plot as a series.

There you go with absolutes again. That's just forced argument. One doesn't imply the other.

[davishepard]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

the IT has way to many holes in the logic sorry but it does the only way out of this is a new ending

There will be no new ending. Just clarification of the current ones. They're calling it Extended Cut by this reason.

Modifié par davishepard, 27 avril 2012 - 01:00 .

[CptData]

davishepard wrote...

IT only cuts off everything that makes the ending an ending. And IT doesn't only open a door to fanfiction, it's fanfiction itself.

The problem is, people think that they found hidden/subtle evidence that supports this fanfiction, and refuses to let go. People want that Bioware put this fanfiction in the game, ruining it. That's not gonna happen, but they refuse to see this.

Okay. Again. Until you get it

Current endings close the door for fanfictions.
Shepard most likely died for a large portion of the fandom in the endings. If s/he didn't die, s/he's barely alive after the destruction of the Reapers and the Citadel.
In all endings the Mass Relays explode.
In all endings the Normandy crashes on a distant world.
In most endings the final squadmates somehow get picked up by the Normandy to strand on that world.

Well ... I can't see any way continue the story with the current setting. Sure, you can write one for "Gilligan's Planet" and one that continues Shepard's story, but you can't have one that includes both. You can't get them back together since the Relays are lost and it's unlikely anyone can create new Relays within few years.


IT opens door for fanfictions.
Shepard never made it on board of the Citadel. Nothing of the stuff shown there actually happened. The Reapers are still there or got defeated by the "Victory Fleet". It's up to the player to figure out what had happened.
Shepard and the crew are still together and can do something. The Relays are not gone, galactic society still exists and can rebuild everything from the Ashes.
Geth and Quarians can coexist in peace.
Krogans will prosper again.
Turians can rebuild Palaven.
Liara & co can return to Thessia and build up what's left.
...

All that is -not- possible with the current endings and NO IT.

And yeah ... IT kinda is part of the fanfic as well since it's the very foundation to make it happen. However, you need that foundation as some kind of accepted "standard" for that stuff.

You don't have to like it.
However, if you still want to write stuff for Shepard & co, you definitely need your own theory how to make it work.

darthoptimus003 wrote...

the IT has way to many holes in the logic sorry but it does the only way out of this is a new ending

That is something I can concur with.

Current endings: plot holes bigger than the entire Victory Fleet
Indoctrination Theory: plot holes bigger than the Normandy
New Endings: Should have plot holes smaller than the entire Shepard-died-plot of ME2

Modifié par CptData, 27 avril 2012 - 01:04 .

[darthoptimus003]

the belivers of this theroy need to remember one thing
EVERY time shep went agianst a reaper it was destroyed how then was shep indoctranated
sorry doesnt add up none of the IT adds up

[dreman9999]

davishepard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
They said that they scrapped the game play portion, notthe story portion. To say IT isnot really is to say that  indoctrination was never part of ME's plot as a series.

There you go with absolutes again. That's just forced argument. One doesn't imply the other.

It not an absolute, it's logic. The reapers can mess with a person mind in many levels warping what they feel, think and believe. They can warp peoples dreams.
And suddenly, the star child just pops out in the end out of the blue?  Have even ask your self if the ending is real or if their as any proof that the ending is real?
It not that IT is false or groundless, it just that you don't want to think.

[davishepard]

@
CptData 

You are wrong just because you suppose to know what can and can't be done in ME. It's their series. They can make anything happen, and explain everything that is not explained yet, if they want to.

There's no need to believe IT unless you want to live in your dreams world and ignore the reality.

Modifié par davishepard, 27 avril 2012 - 01:06 .

[dreman9999]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

the belivers of this theroy need to remember one thing
EVERY time shep went agianst a reaper it was destroyed how then was shep indoctranated
sorry doesnt add up none of the IT adds up

Are forgetting the degree that Shepard had to go to kill those reapers or how indoctrination works?

Just being near a reaper or reaper tech can get a person indoctrinated.
That not a hole, it's just you missinjg facts.

[NoSpin]

To say IT is full of holes is a detriment to the great discussion going on in the IT thread.And face it unless YOU work in the writer's room at Bioware you have NO IDEA what they planned. None. Period.

IT theorists follow a great quote by the Great Sherlock Holmes. Once you eliminate the impossible (that Bioware could have such a lapse of great storytelling and plot holes in only a single 10 min section of the game) what ever remains (IT), however improbable, must be the truth.

You could be right, and Bioware just wrote a sucky ending. YOU COULD BE WRONG. Don't demean a group of people who are giving the creators of a 99.9% great series the benefit of a doubt.

Now I leave you with some of the evidence IT theorists are making up out of thin air
http://imageshack.us...onconcrete.jpg/
http://imageshack.us...neconcrete.jpg/

[dreman9999]

davishepard wrote...

@
CptData 

You are wrong just because you suppose to know what can and can't be done in ME. It's their series. They can make anything happen, and explain everything that is not explained yet, if they want to.

There's no need to believe IT unless you want to live in your dreams world and ignore the reality.

Oh, please. It their series but they are a company. Anyone with logic knows that doing an ending like that to a series with that detailed story and that big a fallowing would kill the series. BW doesnot want that. As a story tell you can warp reality of the story beyond what you built can happen with out destory it.
Learn some creative writing 101.

[davishepard]

dreman9999 wrote...
It not an absolute, it's logic. The reapers can mess with a person mind in many levels warping what they feel, think and believe. They can warp peoples dreams.
And suddenly, the star child just pops out in the end out of the blue?  Have even ask your self if the ending is real or if their as any proof that the ending is real?
It not that IT is false or groundless, it just that you don't want to think.

There's no logic. If  something happened before, doesn't mean that it have to happen now. They can mess with persons, and still not mess with Shepard anytime. 

The Catalyst is the one thing that you are looking for through a considerable part of the game. It's existence is know by the Prothean VI Vendetta, as well as it's location (Citadel). He didn't came out of the blue, he was just unknown til got found. 

There's no proof that the ends didn't happened. Just wishful sad-enraged-fans thinking and forced "evidences" to support their fanficton.

And the notion that everyone that belive IT its geniouses, and others are dumb that fail so see the amazing evidences about it. When could very well be the opposite.

[malakim2099]

Malanek999 wrote...

DTKT wrote...

It really means nothing. It's the personal account of one of the developper. The only thing it means is that he believes that the destroy ending is not the best one.

That's it. He might prefer the "LETS CHANGE THE DNA OF THE ENTIRE GALAXY. FUN FUN FUN" ending.

What the OP was getting at is that in the IT, choosing destroy was symbolic in terms of resisting the indoctrination whereas control and synthesis make the player submit to it. I don't think you can make an argument that submitting to indoctrination is better than resisting it.

Harbinger: SUBMIT SHEPARD, AND I WLL GIVE YOU A BLACK WIDOW X IN A MULTIPLAYER PACK!

Hey, considering how much I've played and opened and not gotten a Black Widow period (and my roommate got a Javelin already)... it'd be tempting. :happy:

Even without IT, I still maintain destroy is the best ending. (Of course, I'm not convinced the Starchild isn't lying, IT or not.)

[NoSpin]

davishepard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
It not an absolute, it's logic. The reapers can mess with a person mind in many levels warping what they feel, think and believe. They can warp peoples dreams.
And suddenly, the star child just pops out in the end out of the blue?  Have even ask your self if the ending is real or if their as any proof that the ending is real?
It not that IT is false or groundless, it just that you don't want to think.

There's no logic. If  something happened before, doesn't mean that it have to happen now. They can mess with persons, and still not mess with Shepard anytime. 

The Catalyst is the one thing that you are looking for through a considerable part of the game. It's existence is know by the Prothean VI Vendetta, as well as it's location (Citadel). He didn't came out of the blue, he was just unknown til got found. 

There's no proof that the ends didn't happened. Just wishful sad-enraged-fans thinking and forced "evidences" to support their fanficton.

And the notion that everyone that belive IT its geniouses, and others are dumb that fail so see the amazing evidences about it. When could very well be the opposite.

There is totally proof the endings are not what they seem. There is also some proof they may be just as they are presented. We don't know. If indoctrination of the player was the point of this Bioware acheived a great feat in storytelling, and that is a possibility. You seem to be the one writing off everyone who believes IT may be the case as loony, and only your interpretation is the correct one. There is not enough evidence for anyone to say, but to say we are forcing evidence to support our fanfiction is closeminded and straight up ignorant.

Modifié par NoSpin, 27 avril 2012 - 01:17 .

[davishepard]

dreman9999 wrote...

Oh, please. It their series but they are a company. Anyone with logic knows that doing an ending like that to a series with that detailed story and that big a fallowing would kill the series. BW doesnot want that. As a story tell you can warp reality of the story beyond what you built can happen with out destory it.
Learn some creative writing 101.

You don't know that. The game itself states the there would be DLC content, possible adding to the story. EC is the result of the complaints of the fans.

And, of course, they can destroy the universe they created if they wanted to, but they didn't.

[dreman9999]

davishepard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
It not an absolute, it's logic. The reapers can mess with a person mind in many levels warping what they feel, think and believe. They can warp peoples dreams.
And suddenly, the star child just pops out in the end out of the blue?  Have even ask your self if the ending is real or if their as any proof that the ending is real?
It not that IT is false or groundless, it just that you don't want to think.

There's no logic. If  something happened before, doesn't mean that it have to happen now. They can mess with persons, and still not mess with Shepard anytime. 

The Catalyst is the one thing that you are looking for through a considerable part of the game. It's existence is know by the Prothean VI Vendetta, as well as it's location (Citadel). He didn't came out of the blue, he was just unknown til got found. 

There's no proof that the ends didn't happened. Just wishful sad-enraged-fans thinking and forced "evidences" to support their fanficton.

And the notion that everyone that belive IT its geniouses, and others are dumb that fail so see the amazing evidences about it. When could very well be the opposite.

Of course it's logic....You dealing with a race of machine with a great history of deception, this inculdes indoctrination. Shepard has been near reaper tech for years, including object rho in arriaval. To say IT is baseless is to say what was stated about reaper is false. Wh wouldn't the reapers try and inctrinated Shepard, they been trying to do that for the entrity of ME2.

The fact that there is no proof to what the star child says and the fact that the reaper have a history of great deception allows for a very reasonable suspition of the ending.
Have you even ask why the star child is helping Shepard?
There is more thing supporting that fact that the ending is fake then the fact that it really happened.

[davishepard]

NoSpin wrote...

There is totally proof the endings are not what they seem. There is also some proof they may be just as they are presented. We don't know. If indoctrination of the player was the point of this Bioware acheived a great feat in storytelling, and that is a possibility. You seem to be the one writing off everyone who believes IT may be the case as loony, and only your interpretation is the correct one. There is not enough evidence for anyone to say, but to say we are forcing evidence to support our fanfiction is closeminded and straight up ignorant.

You are forcing evidence to support your fanfiction. That's not being closeminded, that is just telling the facts. 

There's no proof that the ends didn't happened. So, they happended, as they are shown. 

[NoSpin]

NoSpin wrote...

To say IT is full of holes is a detriment to the great discussion going on in the IT thread.And face it unless YOU work in the writer's room at Bioware you have NO IDEA what they planned. None. Period.

IT theorists follow a great quote by the Great Sherlock Holmes. Once you eliminate the impossible (that Bioware could have such a lapse of great storytelling and plot holes in only a single 10 min section of the game) what ever remains (IT), however improbable, must be the truth.

You could be right, and Bioware just wrote a sucky ending. YOU COULD BE WRONG. Don't demean a group of people who are giving the creators of a 99.9% great series the benefit of a doubt.

Now I leave you with some of the evidence IT theorists are making up out of thin air
http://imageshack.us...onconcrete.jpg/
http://imageshack.us...neconcrete.jpg/

Quoting this again because it is a great way to get out of this thread. We don't know, you don't know, so please stop hating on groups of people. There is just as much of a chance they are right as you are.

[CptData]

davishepard wrote...

@
CptData 

You are wrong just because you suppose to know what can and can't be done in ME. It's their series. They can make anything happen, and explain everything that is not explained yet, if they want to.

There's no need to believe IT unless you want to live in your dreams world and ignore the reality.

Well.
Speaking of reality regarding a fictional story is ... odd, buddy.
Seriously. I hope you know that.

Since we're talking about a fiction story we can interpret it in any way possible. Except, of course, you know the truth of all this and have different sources than I or anyone else has.


BW basically said this: the endings are free to interpret by the players.
BW also announced a DLC that's going to change the endings. I don't know what they're going to change, neither you do. They COULD include the IT if they want - and extend the endings in a way you know the Reapers get defeated based on Shepard's decision in the entire series and not just a single decision in the end.

They could it THAT way.

BW also could extend the endings in  away they stay the same but the Relays aren't gone in Control and Synthesis. Yes, that's another way.

BW also could stay true to the endings: Normandy still screwed, still everything the same, just the epilogue changes and some details get added so the plot holes get reduced.

I won't go through any possible way how to fix / change / extend the endings but basically it comes down to that line:

As long as the EC is not here and as long no one has more info than the rest of the fandom, the IT stays pretty much one the most prominent interpretations of the current endings.
Just because you don't support it doesn't mean you can offend people who do.