622 réponses à ce sujet

[davishepard]

CptData wrote...

Well, remember the "dark energy plot"? That one was originally planned to play a big part in ME3.
It got dropped.

It also was planned to fully indoctrinate Shepard.
That plot got dropped as well since it was too difficult to do gameplay-wise.

However, you can't call the finale really "gameplay". You can't do much more than click from one cut scene to another. And the "hints" are given in the game (the dream sequences, everything beyond Harby's blast) can be interpreted as "leftovers from the indoctrination plot".

I'm pretty sure we're quite close to the truth here. The dreams are definitely leftovers from that indoctrination plot. And the endings simply feel incomplete, as if stuff got cut last minute. Yes, that's it. The endings got cut last minute. The VERY last minute. BW ran out of time and somehow had to make up an ending. That's what we've got.

Now make up what you want, but the IT gets some of it's fuel from the original plans of BW.

Things that got dropped are irrelevant. Deal with concrete things (aka that made to the retail game), please.
Read again. They call it "ending sequence", and say that the entire "ending sequence" was dropped. Sorry.

If a thing is dropped, that don't make to the final game. That don't leave leftovers in the game itself, unless this leftovers cam be explained by elements that made to the game. So, there's no such thing as "leftovers from the indocrination plot".

The dreams are definitely nothing, least leftovers from "the indocrination plot', that as dropped. The ends aren't cut in the last minute. They may not have all details, but the most important things are indeed shown.

You can't prove that Bioware run out of time and so they made the current endings.

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
And on that, the star child is helping. Remeber when Hacket called in and said the crucible was not firing after Anderson died? If the star child did nothing at that point, the allied forces would have lost......Which bring us back to the question to why he even hepled.

This is the convenient place to stop explaining the motives of the Catalyst, since there would be no use to help Shepard in any way, if he is simply lying on the ground in London.

But it would be a great place to try a trick Shepard with IT implies.  We never knw about the star child untill he tryed to help us, so say it a convenient place to stop explaining the Starchildmotivation make no sense because we never knew it had motivations till it tried to help us. The question still remain to why he is tryng to help Shepard?

[davishepard]

DJBare wrote...

Very clear, that's why we are seeing the remnants of it in the game, the plot holes, the ending that essentially has no ending(at least no answers), it was in and then pulled without proper clean up and adjustment to scenes and scripts.

IT is what presents an end with no ending. ME3 endings presents three choices in its ending. You may not like the choices, but they are there. Things happen according to your choice.  

Plot holes can be fixed in EC. No need to take a crap fanfiction from enraged fans and put in their game.

[dreman9999]

davishepard wrote...

CptData wrote...

Well, remember the "dark energy plot"? That one was originally planned to play a big part in ME3.
It got dropped.

It also was planned to fully indoctrinate Shepard.
That plot got dropped as well since it was too difficult to do gameplay-wise.

However, you can't call the finale really "gameplay". You can't do much more than click from one cut scene to another. And the "hints" are given in the game (the dream sequences, everything beyond Harby's blast) can be interpreted as "leftovers from the indoctrination plot".

I'm pretty sure we're quite close to the truth here. The dreams are definitely leftovers from that indoctrination plot. And the endings simply feel incomplete, as if stuff got cut last minute. Yes, that's it. The endings got cut last minute. The VERY last minute. BW ran out of time and somehow had to make up an ending. That's what we've got.

Now make up what you want, but the IT gets some of it's fuel from the original plans of BW.

Things that got dropped are irrelevant. Deal with concrete things (aka that made to the retail game), please.
Read again. They call it "ending sequence", and say that the entire "ending sequence" was dropped. Sorry.

If a thing is dropped, that don't make to the final game. That don't leave leftovers in the game itself, unless this leftovers cam be explained by elements that made to the game. So, there's no such thing as "leftovers from the indocrination plot".

The dreams are definitely nothing, least leftovers from "the indocrination plot', that as dropped. The ends aren't cut in the last minute. They may not have all details, but the most important things are indeed shown.

You can't prove that Bioware run out of time and so they made the current endings.

Do you have any proof that the indoctrination plot was dropped? All wehave proof of is that the gameplay elementof indoctrination was dropped not story.
Also, I'm really sappost to ignore that fact we are dealing with machines with a history of great deception? That like ignoringthefact that I was bite by a posionius cobra.

[Reidbynature]

dreman9999 wrote...

They your not seeing what was bad wriing in ME3. Everythingbut the ending is great writing. Only the ending is bad writing. If IT is used to fix the ending, it become great writing. Get it?

Honestly, is it that hard to understand?  Adding 'it was a dream' doesn't make the dream itself good.  What comes after might be good writing, but it doesn't make the part in between (the ending as it stands) good.  Simple enough?

[CptData]

Rewriting the endings to everything after Harbingers Beam is a dream or indoctrination hallucination is not enough to make bad endings to good endings.

Since people on both sides of this argument seems to ignore this fact.
I'm a follower of the IT but I must say: if BW simply puts two lines of dialogue or so in the game and declare everything after that beam to "indoctrinated - we've got you", nothing changed: we still have no closure.

On the other hand using the IT might help to use the current endings as a base - and extend them in a way Shepard's indoctrination-decision (Red, Green, Blue) has influence on the outcome in the "real world" in the ME universe.


So whatever BW plans to do, even if the devs use the IT in the EC, they still have to add some kind of closure that's experienced by a non-indoctrinated Shepard or from a narrative PoV. Therefore BW doesn't necessarily need to use the IT at all since they always have to add multiple scenes and lines of dialogue for a better closure.

And of course: they need to get rid of the Normandy's current fate ^^

[dreman9999]

davishepard wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Very clear, that's why we are seeing the remnants of it in the game, the plot holes, the ending that essentially has no ending(at least no answers), it was in and then pulled without proper clean up and adjustment to scenes and scripts.

IT is what presents an end with no ending. ME3 endings presents three choices in its ending. You may not like the choices, but they are there. Things happen according to your choice.  

Plot holes can be fixed in EC. No need to take a crap fanfiction from enraged fans and put in their game.

Again, their is more proof that the ending is a lie than it being real.

[davishepard]

dreman9999 wrote...
Did you miss the part when He says he controls the reapers? If the reaper make plans to use great deception, he would be the master mind behind it.

Also, the dream Shepard has is what the theory consider to be sign of indoctrination....Being that the reapers can effect dreams....
.http://www.youtube.c...JFRvDUp4#t=690s
http://www.youtube.c...tYTITiTw#t=249s  
And being that the reaper can effet dreams and Shepard was knocked out after being shot down by harbinger, that leave the question of whether the ending really happened. Note that this concept has been used before in other stories like inception and Total recall. Even DRAGON AGE : ORIGINS use the dream idea....

And on that, the star child is helping. Remeber when Hacket called in and said the crucible was not firing after Anderson died? If the star child did nothing at that point, the allied forces would have lost......Which bring us back to the question to why he even hepled.

He says he controls the Reapers, by giving them a purpose, not by personally controlly every action of them. They could still think for themselves, and act as they see fit, if they achieve their program.

Shepard wake up after being hit by Harbinger, so the endings happened. Inception, Total Recall, even DA:O aren't Mass Effect 3.

The Catalyst isn't helping. He may very well be programmed to present the options to anyone that reach him. The elevator that brings Shepard to him may work only if a single person is around x distance from the control panel, since more than one person acessing it would ruin the choices above.

There can be explanations on the real word if the people dropped this ridiculous delusional fanfiction.

[dreman9999]

Reidbynature wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

They your not seeing what was bad wriing in ME3. Everythingbut the ending is great writing. Only the ending is bad writing. If IT is used to fix the ending, it become great writing. Get it?

Honestly, is it that hard to understand?  Adding 'it was a dream' doesn't make the dream itself good.  What comes after might be good writing, but it doesn't make the part in between (the ending as it stands) good.  Simple enough?

You acting like bwis not adding anything more to the ending. Consider the fact that bw is adding thing to the ending, giving the ending the chance to have a better developed end. Get it?

[davishepard]

dreman9999 wrote...

Do you have any proof that the indoctrination plot was dropped? All wehave proof of is that the gameplay elementof indoctrination was dropped not story.
Also, I'm really sappost to ignore that fact we are dealing with machines with a history of great deception? That like ignoringthefact that I was bite by a posionius cobra.

Something like this?

Final Hours apps wrote...Chapter 10, page 8And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepards movements and fall under full Reaper control.(This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices)

Yes, you read right. The whole endgame sequence was dropped, not just it's gameplay part.
Plus, dropping the gameplay part and not the story part would make no sense, of course.

[dreman9999]

davishepard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Did you miss the part when He says he controls the reapers? If the reaper make plans to use great deception, he would be the master mind behind it.

Also, the dream Shepard has is what the theory consider to be sign of indoctrination....Being that the reapers can effect dreams....
.http://www.youtube.c...JFRvDUp4#t=690s
http://www.youtube.c...tYTITiTw#t=249s  
And being that the reaper can effet dreams and Shepard was knocked out after being shot down by harbinger, that leave the question of whether the ending really happened. Note that this concept has been used before in other stories like inception and Total recall. Even DRAGON AGE : ORIGINS use the dream idea....

And on that, the star child is helping. Remeber when Hacket called in and said the crucible was not firing after Anderson died? If the star child did nothing at that point, the allied forces would have lost......Which bring us back to the question to why he even hepled.

He says he controls the Reapers, by giving them a purpose, not by personally controlly every action of them. They could still think for themselves, and act as they see fit, if they achieve their program.

Shepard wake up after being hit by Harbinger, so the endings happened. Inception, Total Recall, even DA:O aren't Mass Effect 3.

The Catalyst isn't helping. He may very well be programmed to present the options to anyone that reach him. The elevator that brings Shepard to him may work only if a single person is around x distance from the control panel, since more than one person acessing it would ruin the choices above.

There can be explanations on the real word if the people dropped this ridiculous delusional fanfiction.

No, He says he control the reaper andthey are part of his salution. That generaly mean he is the one planning all of it. He is part of the reaper being there head.He part of there plans. He the one planning the great deception.

Also, can you prove that he woke up after words? Think of ending like inception and total recall. Can you prove that those ending were reality or dreams? Same concept.

And agein, the caytyst is helping. Do not remeber Hackt say the crucible not working and the catalyst lifting Shepard unconsuse body up to him? Really, if the star child did not intervien,the crucible would not fire. That was helping.

And agian, I sappost to ingore that fact that I'm dealing with a race a machines with a history of great deception? That like ignoring that  fact that I was bite by a cobra.

[CptData]

davishepard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Do you have any proof that the indoctrination plot was dropped? All wehave proof of is that the gameplay elementof indoctrination was dropped not story.
Also, I'm really sappost to ignore that fact we are dealing with machines with a history of great deception? That like ignoringthefact that I was bite by a posionius cobra.

Something like this?

Final Hours apps wrote...Chapter 10, page 8And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepards movements and fall under full Reaper control.(This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices)

Yes, you read right. The whole endgame sequence was dropped, not just it's gameplay part.
Plus, dropping the gameplay part and not the story part would make no sense, of course.

You can consider the nightmare sequences as leftovers from the original indoctrination plot.

Same with Haelstrom - the "dark energy plot" was quite visible in ME2 but got dropped in ME3. However, it was the ORIGINAL plot that was intented to be used as the central plot for the Reaper's existence and goals.

Technically, BW could reintroduce both with the EC.

Doubt that's going to happen 'though, I stated why.

[dreman9999]

davishepard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Do you have any proof that the indoctrination plot was dropped? All wehave proof of is that the gameplay elementof indoctrination was dropped not story.
Also, I'm really sappost to ignore that fact we are dealing with machines with a history of great deception? That like ignoringthefact that I was bite by a posionius cobra.

Something like this?

Final Hours apps wrote...Chapter 10, page 8And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepards movements and fall under full Reaper control.(This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices)

Yes, you read right. The whole endgame sequence was dropped, not just it's gameplay part.
Plus, dropping the gameplay part and not the story part would make no sense, of course.

"This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices) "

That means the gameplay element were dropped.....Point to me where is stays the story element were dropped

[Reidbynature]

dreman9999 wrote...

You acting like bwis not adding anything more to the ending. Consider the fact that bw is adding thing to the ending, giving the ending the chance to have a better developed end. Get it?

I know they are adding to the ending. D'uh, Extended Cut DLC.  What you don't grasp is that I (and others) believe there are fundamental flaws to the ending.  I don't personally picture them 'clarifying' it into better writing and I don't see how IT magically makes the flaws inherent suddenly disappear (even if it means it was all a dream).

Better developed doesn't mean everything wrong with it disappears..... get it? 

[davishepard]

dreman9999 wrote...
No, He says he control the reaper andthey are part of his salution. That generaly mean he is the one planning all of it. He is part of the reaper being there head.He part of there plans. He the one planning the great deception.

Also, can you prove that he woke up after words? Think of ending like inception and total recall. Can you prove that those ending were reality or dreams? Same concept.

And agein, the caytyst is helping. Do not remeber Hackt say the crucible not working and the catalyst lifting Shepard unconsuse body up to him? Really, if the star child did not intervien,the crucible would not fire. That was helping.

And agian, I sappost to ingore that fact that I'm dealing with a race a machines with a history of great deception? That like ignoring that  fact that I was bite by a cobra.

"Generally". You said. He may planned all of it, or may be created by some race afraid of the syntethics of its cycle. He may somewhat corrupted his parameters, and initiated to operate by the logical seen in ME3, what as realized by its creator in its own cycle, and made they start what would be known as the Crucible.

I can prove. The game shows he waking up. Proven. Movies are not ME3. It's pointless trying to establish a paralel.

The Catalyst isn't helping. After Hakcett's call, Shepard goes to the control panel. Then the elevator activates. If he/she didn't reach the point where the elevator was, the Catalyst wouldn't came down and present him the choices.

Just as without Shepard choosing an option, the Crucible don't fire. Shepard fires the Crucible, not the Catalyst.

You are not dealing with a race of machines in the end of ME3. Just the Catalyst. The Reapers are occupied destroying the united fleet at that moment.

Modifié par davishepard, 27 avril 2012 - 02:39 .

[dreman9999]

Reidbynature wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You acting like bwis not adding anything more to the ending. Consider the fact that bw is adding thing to the ending, giving the ending the chance to have a better developed end. Get it?

I know they are adding to the ending. D'uh, Extended Cut DLC.  What you don't grasp is that I (and others) believe there are fundamental flaws to the ending.  I don't personally picture them 'clarifying' it into better writing and I don't see how IT magically makes the flaws inherent suddenly disappear (even if it means it was all a dream).

Better developed doesn't mean everything wrong with it disappears..... get it? 

But what are the fundamental flaws of the ending?
The flaws are that it makes no sense, it goes a completly different direction then genearl story applies by turning the story into a fantasy, it uses a duex ex,  and  It leaves more question then awnsers.
You don't see how it being a dream solves none of that?

[davishepard]

dreman9999 wrote...

That means the gameplay element were dropped.....Point to me where is stays the story element were dropped

That means the entire endgame sequence featuring indocrination was dropped. By endgame sequence, it means both gameplay and story elements.

Your refusal to acknowledge this is just part of the denial.

[Reidbynature]

dreman9999 wrote...

Reidbynature wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You acting like bwis not adding anything more to the ending. Consider the fact that bw is adding thing to the ending, giving the ending the chance to have a better developed end. Get it?

I know they are adding to the ending. D'uh, Extended Cut DLC.  What you don't grasp is that I (and others) believe there are fundamental flaws to the ending.  I don't personally picture them 'clarifying' it into better writing and I don't see how IT magically makes the flaws inherent suddenly disappear (even if it means it was all a dream).

Better developed doesn't mean everything wrong with it disappears..... get it? 

But what are the fundamental flaws of the ending?
The flaws are that it makes no sense, it goes a completly different direction then genearl story applies by turning the story into a fantasy, it uses a duex ex,  and  It leaves more question then awnsers.
You don't see how it being a dream solves none of that?

That isn't the whole thing, but I do agree with your views on those ones..... and to a point IT kind of solves them, but a) it doesn't make me appreciate that bit of the story any more if they were a dream which is my main point and for me personally I can't pretend it didn't happen.  I don't believe in IT and as much as I'd have loved anything else to happen I can't pretend that wasn't the ending we got.


Though saying that either solution IT or Extended Cut is just trying to salvage something from that broken mess.

[Iconoclaste]

dreman9999 wrote...
But what are the fundamental flaws of the ending?
The flaws are that it makes no sense, it goes a completly different direction then genearl story applies by turning the story into a fantasy, it uses a duex ex,  and  It leaves more question then awnsers.
You don't see how it being a dream solves none of that?

The "dream" version of IT does not make more sense, it only replaces the so-called absence of coherence by a dream that does not solve anything.

[cerberus1701]

I think the people saying, "EC won't clairify" a fudamentally broken ending," are missing something.

While that may be true, as long as many a fan sees a Quarian (Or Asari, or Turian) hand reaching down into the rubble to grasp their Shep....they simply won't care.

Or at least care anywhere near enough to rage anymore.

Modifié par cerberus1701, 27 avril 2012 - 02:52 .

[dreman9999]

davishepard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
No, He says he control the reaper andthey are part of his salution. That generaly mean he is the one planning all of it. He is part of the reaper being there head.He part of there plans. He the one planning the great deception.

Also, can you prove that he woke up after words? Think of ending like inception and total recall. Can you prove that those ending were reality or dreams? Same concept.

And agein, the caytyst is helping. Do not remeber Hackt say the crucible not working and the catalyst lifting Shepard unconsuse body up to him? Really, if the star child did not intervien,the crucible would not fire. That was helping.

And agian, I sappost to ingore that fact that I'm dealing with a race a machines with a history of great deception? That like ignoring that  fact that I was bite by a cobra.

"Generally". You said. He may planned all of it, or may be created by some race afraid of the syntethics of its cycle. He may somewhat corrupted his parameters, and initiated to operate by the logical seen in ME3, what as realized by its creator in its own cycle, and made they start what would be known as the Crucible.

I can prove. The game shows he waking up. Proven. Movies are not ME3. It's pointless trying to establish a paralel.

The Catalyst isn't helping. After Hakcett's call, Shepard goes to the control panel. Then the elevator activates. If he didn't reach the point where the elevator was, the Catalyst wouldn't came down and present him the choices.

Just as without Shepard choosing an option, the Crucible don't fire. Shepard fires the Crucible, not the Catalyst.

You are not dealing with a race of machines in the end of ME3. Just the Catalyst. The Reapers are occupied destroying the united fleet at that moment.

He says exacly ." I am the catalyst,"...."No the citadel is part of me"......"Perhaps. I control the reapers, they are my salution"....."To chaos"
 
It means he is the catalyst and he controls the reapers...

Also, your missing a clear point of who activates the elevator.It not Shepard becoause he/she passes out before reaching the controls agian. But suddenly it  pops out of the blue and brings Shep to the out side of the citadel? Tell me who activated the elevator and you can say the starchild is not helping.
And as stated before, the star child says he controls them, meaning he is the master mind......He is part of th great history of deception. Say the starchild is npt part of the reapersis like sayingHitler is not a ****.

Modifié par dreman9999, 27 avril 2012 - 03:02 .

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But what are the fundamental flaws of the ending?
The flaws are that it makes no sense, it goes a completly different direction then genearl story applies by turning the story into a fantasy, it uses a duex ex,  and  It leaves more question then awnsers.
You don't see how it being a dream solves none of that?

The "dream" version of IT does not make more sense, it only replaces the so-called absence of coherence by a dream that does not solve anything.

Yes it does make nmore sense then the ending. Your basicly say the syntheis ending and the control ending make sense....None of those ending solves the problem the star kid brings up. Also, you missing pot of IT, it to make sense of the ending. Dream are warped and strange, if it is a dream it explain why the ending is so warp. It by it self doesn't solve the proble with the reapers but BW a can still solve that after deling with the warped ending. IT makessense because it allows BW to do more.

[Iconoclaste]

dreman9999 wrote...
Also, your missing a clear point of who activates the elevator.It not Shepard becoause he/she passes out before reaching the controls agian. But suddenly it  pops out of the blue and brings Shep to the out side of the citadel? Tell me who activated the elevator and you can say the starchild is not helping.
And as stated before, the star child says he controls them, meaning he is the master mind......He is part of th great history of deception. Say the starchild is npt part of the reapersis like sayingHitler is not a ****.

The Catalyst is not a Reaper. He is in a different category, but definitely not a Reaper. Some have simply explained that, since the Crucible gave new possibilities, the Catalyst's solutions were not valid anymore. He cannot activate the Crucible, so he brings Shepard to do it. Maybe he's lying from that point forward, maybe not. But that does not explain why the Catalyst should help Shepard in any way if SHep is snoring down in London.

[dreman9999]

davishepard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

That means the gameplay element were dropped.....Point to me where is stays the story element were dropped

That means the entire endgame sequence featuring indocrination was dropped. By endgame sequence, it means both gameplay and story elements.

Your refusal to acknowledge this is just part of the denial.

"This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices) "
.....
Point to me were it says the story element were dropped...Then we can go on with your arguement.

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Also, your missing a clear point of who activates the elevator.It not Shepard becoause he/she passes out before reaching the controls agian. But suddenly it  pops out of the blue and brings Shep to the out side of the citadel? Tell me who activated the elevator and you can say the starchild is not helping.
And as stated before, the star child says he controls them, meaning he is the master mind......He is part of th great history of deception. Say the starchild is npt part of the reapersis like sayingHitler is not a ****.

The Catalyst is not a Reaper. He is in a different category, but definitely not a Reaper. Some have simply explained that, since the Crucible gave new possibilities, the Catalyst's solutions were not valid anymore. He cannot activate the Crucible, so he brings Shepard to do it. Maybe he's lying from that point forward, maybe not. But that does not explain why the Catalyst should help Shepard in any way if SHep is snoring down in London.

But he is controling them...Meaning he is in charge. Like Hitler controled the will of the **** party. If the reapers use great deception to force their will , the star child is the one whois core to the planning. Hell, we don't even know if he is tell the truth or if the ending really happened.