622 réponses à ce sujet

[DJBare]

davishepard wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Very clear, that's why we are seeing the remnants of it in the game, the plot holes, the ending that essentially has no ending(at least no answers), it was in and then pulled without proper clean up and adjustment to scenes and scripts.

IT is what presents an end with no ending. ME3 endings presents three choices in its ending. You may not like the choices, but they are there. Things happen according to your choice.  

Plot holes can be fixed in EC. No need to take a crap fanfiction from enraged fans and put in their game.

You know what the problem with these discussions is?, that none of us can read the thoughts of the others, so details get lost in attempting to explain to others.

IT would cause major plot holes if it was ONLY thing involved in the ending, I leave you to think about it.

[Iconoclaste]

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But what are the fundamental flaws of the ending?
The flaws are that it makes no sense, it goes a completly different direction then genearl story applies by turning the story into a fantasy, it uses a duex ex,  and  It leaves more question then awnsers.
You don't see how it being a dream solves none of that?

The "dream" version of IT does not make more sense, it only replaces the so-called absence of coherence by a dream that does not solve anything.

Yes it does make nmore sense then the ending. Your basicly say the syntheis ending and the control ending make sense....None of those ending solves the problem the star kid brings up. Also, you missing pot of IT, it to make sense of the ending. Dream are warped and strange, if it is a dream it explain why the ending is so warp. It by it self doesn't solve the proble with the reapers but BW a can still solve that after deling with the warped ending. IT makessense because it allows BW to do more.

You are seeing the endings from a different perspective than the one the player is confronted to when he first gets to make the choices. There has been a lot of discussions around all those loose ends and issues regarding the synthesis or control or whatever, and FOLLOWING those discussions players are beginning to piece together all kind of bits & pieces that did just not appear to them in the first place. No game would resist the amount of scrutiny this one has gone through, from usage of sound effects to textures or meshes being used on many instances. There are lots of occurrences where this was the case, and it's simply that way games are made : a trade-off for visual quality is to lessen the meshes count and texture numbers. Seeing the same thing in many places is exactly what is recommended to get better framerates, and to gain time in level building. Reusing assets is just one part of making games, and that has nothing to do with a genius plan to fool players into IT.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 27 avril 2012 - 03:09 .

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But what are the fundamental flaws of the ending?
The flaws are that it makes no sense, it goes a completly different direction then genearl story applies by turning the story into a fantasy, it uses a duex ex,  and  It leaves more question then awnsers.
You don't see how it being a dream solves none of that?

The "dream" version of IT does not make more sense, it only replaces the so-called absence of coherence by a dream that does not solve anything.

Yes it does make nmore sense then the ending. Your basicly say the syntheis ending and the control ending make sense....None of those ending solves the problem the star kid brings up. Also, you missing pot of IT, it to make sense of the ending. Dream are warped and strange, if it is a dream it explain why the ending is so warp. It by it self doesn't solve the proble with the reapers but BW a can still solve that after deling with the warped ending. IT makessense because it allows BW to do more.

You are seeing the endings from a different perspective than the one the player is confronted to when he first gets to make the choices. There has been a lot of discussions around all those loose ends and issues regarding the synthesis or control or whatever, and FOLLOWING those discussions players are beginning to piece together all kind of bits & pieces that did just not appear to them in the first place. No game would resist the amount of scrutiny this one has gone through, from usage of sound effects to textures or meshes being used on many instances. There are lots of occurrences where this was the case, and it's simply that way games are made : a trade-of for visual quality is to lessen the mesh count and texture numbers. Seeing the same thing in many places is exactly what is recommended to get better framerates, and to gain time. Reusing assets is just one part of making games, and that has nothing to do with a genius plan to fool players into IT.

But your missing the fact that we don't know what we saw in the ending is real and the reaper have a great history of messing with peoples minds. Hell, they can mess with peoples dreams.

Fact 6. The reapers can manipulate dreams...http://www.youtube.c...JFRvDUp4#t=690s

The reseachers on project rho in Arrival also taked about strange dreams  when they were being indoctrinated.

http://www.youtube.c...tYTITiTw#t=249s 

There is no proof Shepard really got up after he was cut down by Harbinger. And with the reaper history of great deception, It logical to suppect if what you're  seeing  is real. Heck, the star child easilly can be lieing and has every reason to lie and no reason to help Shepard.

Modifié par dreman9999, 27 avril 2012 - 03:13 .

[Iconoclaste]

dreman9999 wrote...
There is no proof Shepard really got up after he was cut down by Harbinger. And with the reaper history of great deception, It logical to suppect if what you're  seeing  is real. Heck, the star child easilly can be lieing and has every reason to lie and no reason to help Shepard.

Was Saren in a state of dream when he tried to convince SHepard at the end of ME1? Did we ever see him in such a situation? Why would Shepard be manipulated in his dreams, and offered a choice to wake up (destroy)? Harbinger just left the scene as soon as Shepard hit the ground. Who was controlling Shepard at that moment?

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
There is no proof Shepard really got up after he was cut down by Harbinger. And with the reaper history of great deception, It logical to suppect if what you're  seeing  is real. Heck, the star child easilly can be lieing and has every reason to lie and no reason to help Shepard.

Was Saren in a state of dream when he tried to convince SHepard at the end of ME1? Did we ever see him in such a situation? Why would Shepard be manipulated in his dreams, and offered a choice to wake up (destroy)? Harbinger just left the scene as soon as Shepard hit the ground. Who was controlling Shepard at that moment?

You cleary missed the point. The theory is the reaper are trying to indoctrinated Shaperd, that they are trying to trick him into indoctrination. The reaper don't have just one prossed of indoctinating the mind. And you missed the fact that the reapers are not in control of Sheps mind yet, they are trying to. It not a quetion to why did they give a destory choice but can they not give have a destory choice. Shep still has the full control of his mind, Shepard is with one the willed tohe destory choice, not the reapers or star child. Reaper are just trying to warp things to seem the they are offering it so it seems that they are in control when they are not. Remeber, destory has the most negative applied to it form the star child wiht theonly positive it stated is"Well , you do destroy the reaper but...."
Also, if everything that happened after Shepard is cut down is a dream then that would mean that the harbinger you see leaving is a dream. It did  not happen.

Modifié par dreman9999, 27 avril 2012 - 03:42 .

[Iconoclaste]

dreman9999 wrote...
You cleary miss the point. The theory is the reaper are trying to indoctrinated Shaperd, that they are trying to trick him into indoctrination. The reaper don't have just one prossed of indoctinating the mind. And you missed the fact that the reapers are not in control of Sheps mind yet, they are trying to. It not a quetion to why did they give a destory choice but can they not give have a destory choice. Shep still has the full control of his mind, Shepard is with one the willed tohe destory choice, not the reapers or star child. Reaper are just trying to warp things to seem the they are offering it so it seems that they are in control when they are not. Remeber, destory has the most negative applied to it form the star child wiht theonly positive it stated is"Well , you do destroy the reaper but...."
Also, if everything that happened after Shepard is cut down is a dream then that would mean that the harbinger you see leaving is a dream. It did  not happen.

You should avoid repeating to people they "clearly miss the point" when speculating, unless you actually have any evidence to what you are holding as facts. You have to rely first on game content, and if not clear enough then you can speculate away. The other way around (speculate then look at content) is bound to have you sift through evidence to reject what does not support your theory and to only grab what please you.

[DJBare]

Iconoclaste wrote...
Was Saren in a state of dream when he tried to convince SHepard at the end of ME1? Did we ever see him in such a situation? Why would Shepard be manipulated in his dreams, and offered a choice to wake up (destroy)? Harbinger just left the scene as soon as Shepard hit the ground. Who was controlling Shepard at that moment?

Because that's Shepard attempting to fight indoctrination, it's Shepard that introduces the destroy option, the Reapers can manipulate dreams but they cannot prevent the dreams/thoughts of the victims in the early stages, Shepard introduces the destroy option because that's his/her goal, the reapers manipulate that thought with "you can destroy all synthetics if you want, even you are part synthetic"; this now makes that thought unnappealing to any Shepard that does not want to lose EDI the geth and/or his/her own life, destroy is a mixture of Shepards own thoughts and Reaper suggestions.
Control is likewise, the Reapers do not want to be controlled for obvious reasons, so the suggestion "You will die, you will lose everything you have" is added to the thought.

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
You cleary miss the point. The theory is the reaper are trying to indoctrinated Shaperd, that they are trying to trick him into indoctrination. The reaper don't have just one prossed of indoctinating the mind. And you missed the fact that the reapers are not in control of Sheps mind yet, they are trying to. It not a quetion to why did they give a destory choice but can they not give have a destory choice. Shep still has the full control of his mind, Shepard is with one the willed tohe destory choice, not the reapers or star child. Reaper are just trying to warp things to seem the they are offering it so it seems that they are in control when they are not. Remeber, destory has the most negative applied to it form the star child wiht theonly positive it stated is"Well , you do destroy the reaper but...."
Also, if everything that happened after Shepard is cut down is a dream then that would mean that the harbinger you see leaving is a dream. It did  not happen.

You should avoid repeating to people they "clearly miss the point" when speculating, unless you actually have any evidence to what you are holding as facts. You have to rely first on game content, and if not clear enough then you can speculate away. The other way around (speculate then look at content) is bound to have you sift through evidence to reject what does not support your theory and to only grab what please you.

I'm not saying you missed the points on speculation, but on what IT is say. Everything you asked has already been explained over and over agein. You're say the ending can be viewed another way, which I get but my point is that you're still ignoring that fact that reapers are a race of machines  with a history of messing with the mind and deception and the fact that IT is saying they are trying to get control of Sheps mind.  And I have facts supporting the speculation that Shepard is in the process of indoctrination.http://social.biowar...75/blog/212630/

Which is all IT need to do. Indoctrination in itself is subtle and hard to detect. Every case of it the person in the prosses of it can't tell unless someone points it out. Once, they do figure it out, it too late. There never is solid proof untill after they are indoctrinated.This is something stated in the lore it self. 

[Gorkan86]

dreman9999 wrote...

Also, if everything that happened after Shepard is cut down is a dream then that would mean that the harbinger you see leaving is a dream. It did  not happen.

So, everything that happens to Shepard after it hit by Harby's laser is a dream(or hallutination)?

Modifié par Gorkan86, 27 avril 2012 - 04:07 .

[OdanUrr]

dreman9999 wrote...

There is no proof Shepard really got up after he was cut down by Harbinger.

There is also no proof Shepard wasn't indoctrinated after he got knocked out when the Alliance Council got blown up.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 27 avril 2012 - 04:12 .

[balance5050]

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Also, if everything that happened after Shepard is cut down is a dream then that would mean that the harbinger you see leaving is a dream. It did  not happen.

So, everything that happens to Shepard after it hit by Harby's laser is a dream?

It sure seems like a dream! Just look around and listen.

[dreman9999]

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

There is no proof Shepard really got up after he was cut down by Harbinger.

There is also no proof Shepard wasn't indoctrinated after he got knocked out when the Alliance Council got blown up.

Anderson and other perspectives.  
There's a ME comic call ME: home worlds out that shows Vaga's perspective of coming to the citadel the first time in ME3. Since they are other perspectives of the citadel in ME3 that clearly state Shep escape viaAndersons commands then the means that everything that happen Shapard gets up after the human council gets killed offis not a dream.

[dreman9999]

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Also, if everything that happened after Shepard is cut down is a dream then that would mean that the harbinger you see leaving is a dream. It did  not happen.

So, everything that happens to Shepard after it hit by Harby's laser is a dream(or hallutination)?

That's IT''s Theory.
It's ether every thing is a dream or everything is a warped hallutination.

[Iconoclaste]

DJBare wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
Was Saren in a state of dream when he tried to convince SHepard at the end of ME1? Did we ever see him in such a situation? Why would Shepard be manipulated in his dreams, and offered a choice to wake up (destroy)? Harbinger just left the scene as soon as Shepard hit the ground. Who was controlling Shepard at that moment?

Because that's Shepard attempting to fight indoctrination,.........

No no no. Stop right there.

That is the stretch most will refuse to make, because not only does this take control off the hands of the player, but it also takes Shepard out of control of the Reapers, for no apparent reason. Shepard is not "building" this sequence, it is the Catalyst that suggests that to Shepard. If Sovereign had the power to transform Saren into a monster-puppet, through thin air, they surely did not try to fool him at that point. If Shepard is seeing things, then whatever is having control of his mind does not have to suggest such a thing! If Shepard is lying on the ground in London, the Crucible is cooked, finished, kaput. Why not show just a bright light at the end of a tunnel?

Of all reasonable speculation to fill-in some plot hole, this is reaching too far from a simple explanation, even badly written, given in the actual endings.

[OdanUrr]

dreman9999 wrote...

Anderson and other perspectives.  
There's a ME comic call ME: home worlds out that shows Vaga's perspective of coming to the citadel the first time in ME3. Since they are other perspectives of the citadel in ME3 that clearly state Shep escape viaAndersons commands then the means that everything that happen Shapard gets up after the human council gets killed offis not a dream.

For all you know, that could be part of a massive disinformation campaign aimed at convincing the player that ME3 really happened...

[dreman9999]

balance5050 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Also, if everything that happened after Shepard is cut down is a dream then that would mean that the harbinger you see leaving is a dream. It did  not happen.

So, everything that happens to Shepard after it hit by Harby's laser is a dream?

It sure seems like a dream! Just look around and listen.

It can be a halutonation as well. Shepardcould of gotten up and the reaper could just warp what he is really seeing and hearing.

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
Was Saren in a state of dream when he tried to convince SHepard at the end of ME1? Did we ever see him in such a situation? Why would Shepard be manipulated in his dreams, and offered a choice to wake up (destroy)? Harbinger just left the scene as soon as Shepard hit the ground. Who was controlling Shepard at that moment?

Because that's Shepard attempting to fight indoctrination,.........

No no no. Stop right there.

That is the stretch most will refuse to make, because not only does this take control off the hands of the player, but it also takes Shepard out of control of the Reapers, for no apparent reason. Shepard is not "building" this sequence, it is the Catalyst that suggests that to Shepard. If Sovereign had the power to transform Saren into a monster-puppet, through thin air, they surely did not try to fool him at that point. If Shepard is seeing things, then whatever is having control of his mind does not have to suggest such a thing! If Shepard is lying on the ground in London, the Crucible is cooked, finished, kaput. Why not show just a bright light at the end of a tunnel?

Of all reasonable speculation to fill-in some plot hole, this is reaching too far from a simple explanation, even badly written, given in the actual endings.

Agian , what proof do you have that the ending is real? You using the basis that every thing you see is reality, which is a flawe form of making a calulation with  machines that can mess with peoples minds. Ifyou listen to anythingharbiger says in ME2, it would be not question that the reapers want to control Shepard being that he is in the center of the planning of the Allied forces. Their is a reason, to finish off the allied force via deception. This is what the reaper did with the protheans as well. To say IT is wrong because it takes control from the player is to ignore the fact that indoctrination takes controlof the persons thoughts and action away from the person indoctrinted...Remeber Benzia?
Also, what happen to Saren in the end of ME1 was because of the implant sovergin put it him...It's sovergin taking direct control of Sarens form, the thing Harbinger did with the collector every now and then.
Also, you're not getting that Shepard is not key to the reapers defeat, the crucible is. At that point anyone can activate it. Any random Soldier. The crucible is not keyed to activate to Shepard allown, so there is no reason why Shepard being downed means the war is over. If fact that type of think even goes ageinst the endings if you take it at face value being that Harbiger, a reaper that can sense organics, leaves Shepard on his way After shoting him. Why didn't he kill Shepard?

Modifié par dreman9999, 27 avril 2012 - 04:26 .

[Iconoclaste]

dreman9999 wrote...
It can be a halutonation as well. Shepardcould of gotten up and the reaper could just warp what he is really seeing and hearing.

Consider this : how many people around these forums have discussed the moral, scientific, artistic, name-it-istic value of each of the 3 endings, all the way since the game was launched. Some picked blue, and swore by it. Some picked green, and swore by it. Same for red.

How could Shepard, a very good soldier and leader of men / women, but a rather average "science guy", assess correctly what the Catalyst was explaining to him? How could he just not have this dumb look, like was rightfully his in face of the kids explanations and choices? Why, out of the blue, these explanations could not make any sense at the moment the player reaches that point in the game?

You are still seeing this stage in retrospective, and fail to remember how heated were the discussions, for whole days. Shepard doesn't have the brainpower of the whole BSN, doesn't he? Why suppose he should see things in retrospective, like you do?

[Gorkan86]

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Also, if everything that happened after Shepard is cut down is a dream then that would mean that the harbinger you see leaving is a dream. It did  not happen.

So, everything that happens to Shepard after it hit by Harby's laser is a dream(or hallutination)?

That's IT''s Theory.
It's ether every thing is a dream or everything is a warped hallutination.

So those Husks fellas and Marauder(Shields) are trying to kill Shepard not truly? Cuz, if you not shoot them, they will kill you, and you have "game over" message.

[Iconoclaste]

dreman9999 wrote...
Agian , what proof do you have that the ending is real? You using the basis that every thing you see is reality, which is a flawe form of making a calulation with  machines that can mess with peoples minds.

You can see these machines happily blowing the alliance to pieces in the background. Why show that to Shepard?

[dreman9999]

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Also, if everything that happened after Shepard is cut down is a dream then that would mean that the harbinger you see leaving is a dream. It did  not happen.

So, everything that happens to Shepard after it hit by Harby's laser is a dream(or hallutination)?

That's IT''s Theory.
It's ether every thing is a dream or everything is a warped hallutination.

So those Husks fellas and Marauder(Shields) are trying to kill Shepard not truly? Cuz, if you not shoot them, they will kill you, and you have "game over" message.

All part of the trick. Same case with allowing David to up load himself in overlord.

[OdanUrr]

dreman9999 wrote...

Why didn't he kill Shepard?

Oh, that one's easy: because he thought Shepard was dead.

[The Angry One]

If Gamble thinks the best ending isn't destroy, that proves to me the best ending is destroy.

[Gorkan86]

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Also, if everything that happened after Shepard is cut down is a dream then that would mean that the harbinger you see leaving is a dream. It did  not happen.

So, everything that happens to Shepard after it hit by Harby's laser is a dream(or hallutination)?

That's IT''s Theory.
It's ether every thing is a dream or everything is a warped hallutination.

So those Husks fellas and Marauder(Shields) are trying to kill Shepard not truly? Cuz, if you not shoot them, they will kill you, and you have "game over" message.

All part of the trick. Same case with allowing David to up load himself in overlord.

For scientific experiment?

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Agian , what proof do you have that the ending is real? You using the basis that every thing you see is reality, which is a flawe form of making a calulation with  machines that can mess with peoples minds.

You can see these machines happily blowing the alliance to pieces in the background. Why show that to Shepard?

Then why haven't they destoryed the curcible yet. Why did Harbinger attack Shepard when It would be better to attack the crucible? Why did Harbinger attack the crucible next after attacking Shepard?
Really, if the crucible is gone....What can Shepard do to stop the reapers?
I would thing they show all those ships being destoryed to make a person despret and to erge them to quickly make a choice.

Modifié par dreman9999, 27 avril 2012 - 04:32 .