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Indoc Theory = Free Pass, Yet they don't take it? What is wrong with EA?


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#301
LelianaHawke

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Note my post wasn't to support IT. It was just to say that while an interesting theory, it's not the only theory.

The only plausible theory I see at this stage is nothing really makes sense. Every possible theory has holes in it, and the IT is not immune.

So, how does PTSD explain Shepard seeing himself embracing
the child and then THEM BOTH SMIRKING AT YOU WHILE THEY ARE ENGULFED IN
FLAMES?

What was the point of the eerie smiles? How does that fit
in with the "guilt" aspect? What is the alternative symbology for this?

That's just a crazy dream, put in there to represent the war affecting Shepard on a subconcious level.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 26 avril 2012 - 09:11 .


#302
dweller

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Fact is, IT has no solid evidence to back up your claims of it being true.

Honestly, the only thing I'd like to see is all you IT-believers to stop being all like "dayum we're so smart you guys are idiots for not seeing it, IT is so obvious only real intelligent ME fans can see the genious that the REAL endings are!!!" (and yes, I've seen quite a few posts with that sort of undertone behind it lately).

Keep believing it, nobody's forcing you not to. But stop shoving it down people's throats.

#303
Raiil

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PTSD dreams involve reliving an event, either 'realistically' or through analogy (as the dreams would fall under) of a hopeless situation that you can't control, can't change, compounding feelings of helplessness and despair. Other signs are hearing voices and shadowy figures.

If you absolutely must find some analogy of an eerie smile, it is the destruction of the future, a crushing acknowledgement that just as you could not save the dead on earth, you will most likely not survive yourself. A smiling, happy situation being burnt to ashes makes it a double gut punch.

#304
gmboy902

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1) Fans will get angry at BioWare for letting this outrage ensue intentionally (even if they adopt it, it would be hard to prove)

2) It would be much simpler to just change the last ten minutes and remove Starchild completely.

#305
Sublyminal

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LelianaHawke wrote...

Note my post wasn't to support IT. It was just to say that while an interesting theory, it's not the only theory.

The only plausible theory I see at this stage is nothing really makes sense. Every possible theory has holes in it, and the IT is not immune.

So, how does PTSD explain Shepard seeing himself embracing
the child and then THEM BOTH SMIRKING AT YOU WHILE THEY ARE ENGULFED IN
FLAMES?

What was the point of the eerie smiles? How does that fit
in with the "guilt" aspect? What is the alternative symbology for this?

That's just a crazy dream, put in there to represent the war affecting Shepard on a subconcious level.




Sorry but PTSD does not cause you to have crazy dreams such as what Shep had. As someone that suffers from it from back in the first gulf war, you're incorrect on your assumptions.

#306
balance5050

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LelianaHawke wrote...

Note my post wasn't to support IT. It was just to say that while an interesting theory, it's not the only theory.

The only plausible theory I see at this stage is nothing really makes sense. Every possible theory has holes in it, and the IT is not immune.

So, how does PTSD explain Shepard seeing himself embracing
the child and then THEM BOTH SMIRKING AT YOU WHILE THEY ARE ENGULFED IN
FLAMES?

What was the point of the eerie smiles? How does that fit
in with the "guilt" aspect? What is the alternative symbology for this?

That's just a crazy dream, put in there to represent the war affecting Shepard on a subconcious level.


Ok ok... if "That's just a crazy dream"  is your best literary analysis, then I think it's time for me to go play Witcher 2...

Have fun folks... and don't forget, I.T. is the most popular unified theory. Deal with it.

#307
draken-heart

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i still say BioWare is trying to mess with EA.

#308
dweller

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Popularity =//= quality. Also, not everyone thinks it's as great as you do.

Modifié par dweller, 26 avril 2012 - 09:22 .


#309
Alamar2078

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I think there are several possible explanations:

-- EA respects BW's artistic vision .... [ok maybe not]

-- EA / BW may have already invested a lot of time, money, etc. for current or future products that all depend on the endings we have. Therefore IT is NOT a free pass [to them]

-- EA doesn't know enough to even know about IT let alone understand that it's a free pass. After all EA probably is ONLY taking info from BW who wouldn't likely push IT as a free pass.

-- If IT is embarced improperly then there may be more complaints about "deliberately" not shipping a complete game. EA or BW Legal team may not allow BW to go with IT for these sorts of reasons.

I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons ... tinfoil hat required or otherwise why EA isn't forcing BW to accept IT and its "free pass".

#310
LelianaHawke

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Err if you read my post, I wasn't linking the dreams to PTSD at all.

I simply said they were dreams put in to show something very basic - that Shepard has feelings.

No indoctrination effect. No PTSD. Hence why I labelled them as 'just crazy dreams'.

You're overanalyzing.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 26 avril 2012 - 09:23 .


#311
Agugaboo

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[quote]Arcian wrote...

Let me clarify:

1: If you chose Destroy, you somehow wake up
magically free of Indoctrination, which according to three games of lore
isn't possible because Indoctrination is utterly permanent. No one in
Mass Effect has EVER escaped indoctrination permanently. Yes, people
with tremendous willpower can resist it for a short while, but a short
while is not the several hours required to fight the final battle. At
best, Shepard would wake up, get his/her bearings for a few minutes and
then turn Reaper Mode and attack friends and allies after being mentally
overpowered by the Reapers.

2: If you chose Synthesis/Control,
you are indoctrinated, losing the game instantly which makes Destroy a
non-choice - thus removing what little choice remained in the RGB scene.
The whole point of Mass Effect is to not force non-choices on the
player, which is precisely what the IDT is doing.

3: The Reapers
do not indoctrinate via hallucinations or mental "dream persuasion" -
they literally, physically damage the brain with electromagnetic energy
and infra/ultrasound, degenerating thought processes to make their
victims susceptible to subliminal control. Permanent. Brain. Damage.
The hallucinations and voices are symptoms, not causes as the IDT would
have us believe. By the time you are experiencing hallucinations and
hearing voices, you have already been irreversibly indoctrinated - thus,
the IDT's presumption that Destroy frees Shepard of indoctrination is
highly erroneous.


[/quote]

1.Why not? Why not once on a rare while have someone strong enough to resist it? It's like the chances of life forming, but just because it's never happened before, might not happen for billions of years, doesn't mean it can't. The whole game you are constructing shepard's willpower.

2. Meh. IT doesn't make the ending a non-choice, it's merely a situation in which there is one right choice among many right choices. This is in fact repeated multiple times in the game with situations that can result in someone's death or you saving them (some side quests, sending Tali down the vent in ME2). The choices given by starbrat and he himself are an illusion by the logic of the IT. Only this time the person who might die/ become reaperized is Shepard.

EDIT: Oh wait, no it is actually definitively possible to escape indoctrination here:
[qoute]
The only person who fully escaped indoctrination's grip was Shiala, but her case was unique; Sovereign's control was supplanted by the Thorian's when she was exchanged for the Cipher, which ended with the Thorian's demise—a scenario unlikely to be repeated.

[/quote]

unlikely not being impossible.

3. a variant of 2

#312
Agugaboo

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double tap

Modifié par Agugaboo, 26 avril 2012 - 09:27 .


#313
dweller

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Agugaboo wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Let me clarify:

1: If you chose Destroy, you somehow wake up
magically free of Indoctrination, which according to three games of lore
isn't possible because Indoctrination is utterly permanent. No one in
Mass Effect has EVER escaped indoctrination permanently. Yes, people
with tremendous willpower can resist it for a short while, but a short
while is not the several hours required to fight the final battle. At
best, Shepard would wake up, get his/her bearings for a few minutes and
then turn Reaper Mode and attack friends and allies after being mentally
overpowered by the Reapers.

2: If you chose Synthesis/Control,
you are indoctrinated, losing the game instantly which makes Destroy a
non-choice - thus removing what little choice remained in the RGB scene.
The whole point of Mass Effect is to not force non-choices on the
player, which is precisely what the IDT is doing.

3: The Reapers
do not indoctrinate via hallucinations or mental "dream persuasion" -
they literally, physically damage the brain with electromagnetic energy
and infra/ultrasound, degenerating thought processes to make their
victims susceptible to subliminal control. Permanent. Brain. Damage.
The hallucinations and voices are symptoms, not causes as the IDT would
have us believe. By the time you are experiencing hallucinations and
hearing voices, you have already been irreversibly indoctrinated - thus,
the IDT's presumption that Destroy frees Shepard of indoctrination is
highly erroneous.



1.Why not? Why not once on a rare while have someone strong enough to resist it? It's like the chances of life forming, but just because it's never happened before, might not happen for billions of years, doesn't mean it can't. The whole game you are constructing shepard's willpower.

2. Meh. IT doesn't make the ending a non-choice, it's merely a situation in which there is one right choice among many right choices. This is in fact repeated multiple times in the game with situations that can result in someone's death or you saving them (some side quests, sending Tali down the vent in ME2). The choices given by starbrat and he himself are an illusion by the logic of the IT. Only this time the person who might die/ become reaperized is Shepard.

EDIT: Oh wait, no it is actually definitively possible to escape indoctrination here:

The only person who fully escaped indoctrination's grip was Shiala, but her case was unique; Sovereign's control was supplanted by the Thorian's when she was exchanged for the Cipher, which ended with the Thorian's demise—a scenario unlikely to be repeated.


unlikely not being impossible.

3. a variant of 2


The Thorian is dead, unless you pull another one out of your ***, I don't see how it is not impossible.

Modifié par dweller, 26 avril 2012 - 09:24 .


#314
Agugaboo

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dweller wrote...

The Thorian is dead, unless you pull another one out of your ***, I don't see how it is not impossible.

Hey that's where shep keeps all the guns.:lol: No, really just pointing out that if indoc is escapable in one way why not the other. It's not as absolute as it seems.

Edit: seems like we're making the quote formatting unhappy.

Modifié par Agugaboo, 26 avril 2012 - 09:26 .


#315
Agugaboo

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dweller wrote...

Fact is, IT has no solid evidence to back up your claims of it being true.

Honestly, the only thing I'd like to see is all you IT-believers to stop being all like "dayum we're so smart you guys are idiots for not seeing it, IT is so obvious only real intelligent ME fans can see the genious that the REAL endings are!!!" (and yes, I've seen quite a few posts with that sort of undertone behind it lately).

Keep believing it, nobody's forcing you not to. But stop shoving it down people's throats.


Pot @ Kettle: "black!"
every thread someone starts about IT inevitably gets spammed/ trolled by naysayers who want to shove it down everyone's throats that we are stupid the writers are stupid the plot is stupid and everyone is stupid for buying the game.

#316
draken-heart

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@Agugaboo: then why are they-ooh, that's right they bought it too, so that makes them stupid too.
/sarcasm

Modifié par draken-heart, 26 avril 2012 - 09:49 .


#317
Seboist

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They don't take it because it's stupid fanboy desperation and denial of the fact that Bioware's writers are hacks and that the story of this game and the series in general was greatly flawed from the start.

You'd have to change the entire moronic crucible deus ex machina plot in order to have a half-way decent ending.

#318
VendettaI154

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I'm no hardcore indoctrination theorist but honestly, wouldn't everybody rather have it than what we got? Anyway, I see it as the fans offering BioWare a ladder out of the huge hole they've dug themselves into it and BioWare just ignoring it and trying to scramble out of hole themselves.

#319
MrPuschel

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Because they really tought theyr ending was a big shot and never intended something like indoctrination.

#320
ZackG312

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This could be a good business thing, say that Shepard's story continues make Mass Effect 4 and profit because everyone here will buy it even the people who hated the ending. Pump out DLC for ME3, people wont think its a waste of time and money... more money.

#321
Guest_laecraft_*

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Seboist wrote...

They don't take it because it's stupid fanboy desperation and denial of the fact that Bioware's writers are hacks and that the story of this game and the series in general was greatly flawed from the start.

You'd have to change the entire moronic crucible deus ex machina plot in order to have a half-way decent ending.


Exactly, it's denial at its finest. Indoctrination theory puts the turian Councilor to shame. "Catalyst is a myth, the unverse is fine. The Reapers are manipulating you, Shepard. This entire matter just proves exactly how fragile Shepard's mental state is!"

The plot of ME3 can't be fixed with a patch like that, it's funamentally flawed. Even if you remove the ending, ME3 still needs one. Suppose you reject Catalyst's offer, what are you going to do then? Fight and die? The Reapers can't be defeated conventionally. The galaxy's done nothing to stop the Reaper except put their hopes on some magical device they don't know how it works, and here's the logical outcome of that.

Plus, there is a narrative problem with that theory. There was no clear, strong indication that Shepard was under the influence. Without anything substantial to point at, anything could be questioned. If ending is a lie, the entire game could be a lie. The entire series could be. Anything the players don't like, that is.

An ending is not just some minor scene that could be replaced without any damage to the rest of the story. It should be a logical conclusion to the entire series, something the story's been building up to from the start.

#322
zambot

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VendettaI154 wrote...

I'm no hardcore indoctrination theorist but honestly, wouldn't everybody rather have it than what we got? Anyway, I see it as the fans offering BioWare a ladder out of the huge hole they've dug themselves into it and BioWare just ignoring it and trying to scramble out of hole themselves.


I just want a new/redone ending.  Whether Bioware says

"haha, it was all an indoctrination and everything you saw was just a dream" or 

"oops, yeah we rushed the ending.  Here, we'll patch something new"

is largely irrelevent to me.  Both accomplish what I want: an ending that (presumably) is better than what we got.

#323
Guest_Dominus Solanum_*

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 They don't take the easy way out because the IT was a retarded idea that was come up with by people who cared far, far more about the game than some of the people who worked on it. The notion that BW would actually use such a cockamamie explanation just goes to show how out there people who 'believe' in it really are. 

Image IPB

#324
OdanUrr

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balance5050 wrote...

Have fun folks... and don't forget, I.T. is the most popular unified theory. Deal with it.


So was the geocentric model... :whistle:

I just couldn't help myself!:blush:

#325
RockSW

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they'd never admit the ending is trash, even with a such a convenient "free pass" available.

to admit it would mean admitting they can't write.