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BioWare Interpretation vs. Fan Interpretation: ???


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#1
Mystiq6

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I apologize in advance to Mike Gamble but I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking there's a huge difference in how BioWare sees their game and how the fans do. :)  Especially after reading these tweets. I'm going directly against what he asked people not to do on Twitter but I feel this is important enough to bring up in discussion.

TL;DR in bold. (Even the TL;DR has quite a bit of text, sorry.)

Below are a series of tweets and responses from Mike Gamble:

The themes of ME are all about the organic and synthetic struggle. Synthesis breaks the chain forever.


Fan:
Synthesis is even worse than control... What if some people would rather choose death than be a half-machine?

Gamble:
but the idea is there is no concept of machine or organic anymore. There is only life.


Fan:
Did I miss something then? I don't recall organic vs synthetic being all that big of a theme.

Gamble:
geth vs organics. reapers vs organics.


Fan:
how do you figure thats one of the main themes? I never got that impression at all playing ME

Gamble:
cycle of sentient synthetic machines, and the struggle against organics.


Fan:
There was always only life, in different forms.

Gamble:
is EDI alive? do you consider that a form of life?


I also never got the impression that organic vs synthetic was a major themes of Mass Effect, at least to the point that everything you do will come back around to it. It seems sort of forced in the ending. It felt like more of a means to an end than the running theme of the series. A struggle for life, maybe. Fighting for your own freedom and uniting all forms of life.

The question about EDI seems to go counter to evidence presented in the game itself. I'm still not sure if I see EDI as "alive" but there's no denying the scene with Legion and him finally referring to himself in the first person. Later, EDI admits to being afraid.


I'm not convinced Synthesis breaks the chain forever. It will, at least until fully organic life evolves again on the infinite time scale -- the same thing used to defend the Catalyst's arguments that at some point synthetics will wipe out all organic life. Or until the "Semisynetics/Semiorganics" create a true synthetic again. Machines must still exist or ships would cease to exist, unless you're trying to tell me the Normandy is now part organic, because that would just be creepy.

I haven't heard anything yet that makes any sense out of this ending and this isn't helping my confidence in the Extended Cut. I want it to be great but I don't think I can move on as long as synthetic vs organic is supposed to be a major theme when that's not how I see the game. The most popular fan interpretations seem to be the ones that turn the major theme from synthetic vs organic back into fighting for life and uniting the galaxy, such as the Indoctrination Theory.

Take the scene with Javik and how he describes what the downfall of the Protheans was. In his cycle, all organic races were united under one banner. The trouble is, their diferences disappeared under the Prothean empire. Because in this cycle each race is left alone to their own devices -- along with their strengths and weaknesses -- the organic races stand a better chance. Diversity, something that seems to stem from Mass Effect 1 when your squadmates at the beginning of the game dislike alien races but are still forced to ally with them. Protheans refused to ally and preferred to just take over. Synthesis erases the differences between types of "life" (assuming you refer to Legion and EDI as alive).

I also find it hard to believe that both sides of the Synthesized "race" will suddenly join up with one another like nothing ever happened. The geth fought each other and they are both sides of the same coin. I don't think a human synthetic is going to much like a reaper organic. They did try to exterminate us, after all.

Far apart from the reapers, the krogan and rachni, at one point, seemed to be almost as big a threat as the reapers. Choosing to exterminate the quarians, who wanted to kill off the geth; the rachni, who were so easily controlled by the reapers; and the krogan, who out of sheer brutality were posing a danger themselves; seems to show that even without synthetics, organics have enough problems to be getting on with. It isn't without putting aside differences that the major threat can be removed. Synthesis does not put aside any differences, only the superficial one. Control doesn't do much of anything (if the Catalyst can be trusted) that Destroy doesn't do, it's just an insurance plan.

Is the crux of the fan outrage at the ending that most players don't see the major theme as synthetics vs organics? Nevermind that nothing in the game seems to give any reasonable explanation to any of the choices making sense in the context of the game (not to mention how the hell Synthesis is supposed to work on a practical level).

I saw both Dragon Age as a series of forced, sort of myopic moral dilemmas. You're forced to choose between what the player would see as the lesser of two evils in nearly every decision Dragon Age allowed. The decisions in those games seemed very much constructed. While Mass Effect's choices were as constructed, it didn't feel like shows like CSI and NCIS where the empathy is bored into you with a jackhammer. By ignoring the unity of geth and quarians and denying organics a chance by themselves (and teasing the player by allowing Shepard to live), Mass Effect veers down that road that I so disliked about Dragon Age.

If the intent of Thessia and Tuchanka were to make the player second guess themselves in the end, it didn't work. This is just like the "lesser of two evils" choices that I disliked in Dragon Age. Those scenes made me side with the geth and EDI, which is why I consider Destroy the best ending. Synthesis just ruins individuality. Control is no assured hope because the Catalyst can't be trusted. Destroy kills off the reapers and with a high enough EMS, EDI doesn't die so the geth aren't dead either. It rides right along with what I, as a player, have been led to believe by the game. All the others run completely counter.

I just don't think any type of extra explanation is going to change people's minds that easily.

Far apart (again) from the theme, when I first got to the ending, I saw it as the ultimate choice of the game's dialog system: do you go paragon, renegade or neutral. I almost don't think any of them solve the problem of synthetic vs. organic. I see it as a contrived theme with no possible resolution, even in Destroy, but at least Destroy lets Shepard keep his morals and eliminate the immediate threat. There's still time to work it out ("hope", as the Catalyst calls it). The Catalyst served its purpose of allowing the game's ending to take a 180 but in doing so toyed with my interpretation of the game thus far, which is [/i]why the Indoctrination Theory is so appealing: it returns the world to my version of normal.[i]

Modifié par Mystiq6, 27 avril 2012 - 02:52 .


#2
Unholyknight800

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Life is life no matter the form. We can't really decide that because we're not the master of this universe or any other.

#3
FBI-Azzurri

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One of the major themes of Mass Effect was the galaxy being able to exist as one through Galactic Diversity, each race being unique and different and bringing different ideas and assets to the table. Too bad this theme goes down the toilet if you pick the green ending...Word of advice...Pick red

#4
lordofdogtown19

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Someone needs to tell Gamble that Shepard (at least mine) achieved peace with synthetics and organics already

#5
Stygian1

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Gamble has no clue what he's talking about.

Sorry, someone had to say it. Not an insult, but he blatantly missed the main themes of the series.

#6
Mystiq6

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Stygian1 wrote...

Gamble has no clue what he's talking about.

Sorry, someone had to say it. Not an insult, but he blatantly missed the main themes of the series.

I don't want to attack him. I just want to bring up the discussion because there seems to be a major disparity.

#7
Isichar

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You really get the impression these writers have no idea what they are talking about. They work so hard to make synthesis sound so great when you cant even logically explain what it does. They push an easily arguable theme and decided at the same time that dialogue was not important in doing so.

And when people wanted explanations they sat back, got in the bioware bunker and let people speculate everything for them. They can try and spin it anyway they want but they dropped the ball where it mattered.

They can sit back and tell us how great and wonderful everything is for an ending that leaves most fans feeling like crap.

Modifié par Isichar, 26 avril 2012 - 03:21 .


#8
Aweus

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Gamble is gambling a lot with this statement. Let's just say that the stakes are high. We will see what kind of interpretation they will try to enforce in Extended Cut.

#9
MrFob

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My problem would not even be that my interpretation of the endings is different from the writer's. That's fine. Then we could discuss it.
The problem is that BW doesn't even have one as far as i know (and if they have, they sure are not willing to discuss it).

#10
Ticonderoga117

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Mystiq6 wrote...

Fan:
Did I miss something then? I don't recall organic vs synthetic being all that big of a theme.

Gamble:
geth vs organics. reapers vs organics.



ARGH! This makes me rage. The Geth don't really care about organics, they want to "self-determinate" and they like the idea of all life "self-determinating". They only attack in self defense! Was Gamble asleep when they went over the ENTIRE GETH STORY ARC in ME2? In ME1 you could arguer this, but ME2 kicks it firmly in the head and kills the idea that the geth are basically terminators on the fringe of the galaxy just waiting for the right time to invade and kill all organics while twirling thier fake evil mustaches. At best, this idea is a side-theme.

Next point: Reapers versus organics. This is bunk according to ME1. I literally just got done replaying the end of Virmire and Saren basically says that the geth would've also been destoryed, but they were submitting to the will of Soverign to prove themselves good tools and thus be saved from destruction. If they weren't, it's implied they would be on the chopping block the same as the Humans, Asari, Quarians, etc etc.

The Reapers aren't just focusing on organic life, they focus on ALL highly advanced civs (as per ME1). Get your crap together Gamble and understand what came before! You can't just hijack the motivation of a timeless Space horror just because you've watched the matrix and decided to mix it with DX:HR!

#11
eddieoctane

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Someone needs to explain to Mike how life seems to spring up from out of the ooze on a lot of worlds in Mass Effect. So unless the Crucible does away with physics in its entirety, organics will still come into being eventually. And you can still create a pure synthetic from raw metal and silicon. All synthesis does is put off the Reapers return to kill everyone for longer than control.

#12
Jedifan421

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Gamble:
but the idea is there is no concept of machine or organic anymore. There is only life.

"There is only life."

Oh, okay, so, apparently rewriting everyone's DNA to be the same in a matter of seconds creates just...life.

Not massive genetic problems, not massive death from said problems happening in seconds, not massive reproduction problems, no lack of diversity causing more genetic problems in future generations of offspring, A.I. Programming isn't affected because it becomes...like organic brain and central nervous system functions and vice versa? No one is upset their DNA has been rewritten so they're the same as everyone else? No one's who they were anymore even if they wanted it to stay that way. Everyone just blindly accepts it as "We're all just life now. No more need for war. We're all the same now. You get to be life and you get to be life. Every-body-gets to be life! This isn't anything like that guy Hitler wanted!"

Just...wow.

My faith in the EC DLC for clarification and closure being satisfying just dwindles more and more until my expectations are "going to be right next to ****ing dinosaur bones" to quote Mr. Harry S. Plinkett about Star Wars Episode III.

#13
-Skorpious-

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Synthesis should never have been in the game in the first place if the developers can't explain its reasoning/inclusion without getting frustrated.

I mean c'mon.

#14
zaeeds rage

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Piecing together all the tidbits and quotes from those involved prior and current, it doesn't seem like they knew what to do with the main story. They started several possibilities, didn't flesh out any of them, and then just finished the story. When writing, you should have an idea of how it ends. You don't have things completely detailed because you haven't written all the stuff in between yet, but you have an idea. It doesn't appear that they did. They didn't intend to do a poor job but it is what it is. It reminds me of the praise of Pixar. Many credit them for how they write their stories. They plan out how it begins and ends. They believe in knowing where you are going with the tale and excel tying i their B/C stories. They also are stout believers in knowing the rules of the world you create. These are things the writers of ME could use improvement in. They wrote some excellent B stories but they wrote them with no end in mind leaving the viewers confused

#15
Omilophile

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Mystiq6 wrote...

 Mike Gamble:


The themes of ME are all about the organic and synthetic struggle. Synthesis breaks the chain forever.


How on earth are they going to explain that one? As long as sentient beings with different opinions exist, there will always be a struggle in some form or another. Plus, this doesn't stop ANYBODY from just building more synthetics from scratch. It's still nonsensical, Mr. Gamble. I'm sorry. I know you're just doing your job, but open your eyes, man!

#16
Ticonderoga117

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-Skorpious- wrote...

Synthesis should never have been in the game in the first place if the developers can't explain its reasoning/inclusion without getting frustrated.

I mean c'mon.


But it is easy to explain, because it's :wizard:.

Now explaining at the same level that everything else in the ME 'verse is a much harder challenge and apparently one they threw right out the window.

#17
Mystiq6

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I think I'm finally done editing the hell out of the original post...

#18
OH-UP-THIS!

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Wait!! Wha? Read my sig,

I'm not going to PLAY god, in this lifetime or the next.

Turning ALL life into cyborgs? NAH, pass. I don't have the right, to impose that on anything, much less EVERYTHING! F-that, FULLSTOP!!

#19
Sal86

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MrFob wrote...

My problem would not even be that my interpretation of the endings is different from the writer's. That's fine. Then we could discuss it.
The problem is that BW doesn't even have one as far as i know (and if they have, they sure are not willing to discuss it).


I consider this to be a good thing. Differring opinions within BW gives the best chance of the 3 options being kept balanced. I would hate to think that the DLC would end up as an attempt to explain why synthesis is the best option.

#20
Iakus

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This cycle the krogan (and the rachni before them) proved to be far greater threats to galactic life. And they were fully organic. Simply merging organic and synthetic into a single e-DNA fixes nothing.

#21
NUM13ER

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Fan: Synthesis is even worse than control... What if some people would rather choose death than be a half-machine?
Gamble: But the idea is there is no concept of machine or organic anymore. There is only life.


What logic is that exactly? A human will still remember being organic...as will a Geth recall being synthetic. The "concept" of being either isn't some abstract idea it's an actual memory. A lifetime's worth to be exact. Unless synthesis altered how all lifeforms actually viewed the world...so that they accept this scenario completely.

That's just as troubling as forcing everyone in the galaxy to become half synthetic. Altering their minds without anyones consent.

Modifié par NUM13ER, 26 avril 2012 - 03:55 .


#22
Akranadas

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I thought the theme was "overcoming the differences to work together?"

#23
chemiclord

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And this really is the disconnect that sometimes happens with creators and the readers/viewers/players/etc.

It's very possible that organic/synthetic life was the entire point of the writing team. But the story that fleshed out became something different... and that disconnect didn't become clear until Walters and Hudson forced what they thought the ending should be on a story that had grown into something else entirely.

#24
tute

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synthetic, organic; it doesn't matter the form, life is life. Watching some programs in the science channel, some scientists believe that AI's are still a form of life. WE are biological machines and possess intelligence; and they argue that just because they're made of metal doesnt mean that they are not alive. A small minority even go so far as to say that if we ever encounter life in the galaxy, it might be synthetic life.

#25
Mathias

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You know what's funny? Is that for the next year or so, the devs/mods will continue to act like the endings are magnificient, and that the fans are stupid and don't know what they're talking about. But deep down they'll always know that the fans know WAY more about the games and it's lore than they do. Deep down they know the endings are terrible and most people hate them. I would say within a year or so, one of the devs/writers will come forward and say,

"Yea, we/they screwed up."

It'll take awhile, and whoever says it probably won't be a Bioware Employee anymore at the time it happens. But it's only a matter of time.