209 réponses à ce sujet

[viperabyss]

Fan's interpretation:
















Bioware's interpretation:

Artistic Integrity.

Modifié par viperabyss, 26 avril 2012 - 05:06 .

[Rob_Nix]

Who is this Gamble dude and did he even play ME3?

[Rob_Nix]

lillitheris wrote...

There's this thought that's been bouncing around in my head regarding synthesis, and it's basically exactly what Gamble says: the only way to end conflict between synthetic and organic life is to stop making a difference between the two. Of course Synthesis, as presented, does nothing to address that because they just didn't really think about the whole thing. At all.

Anyway, once again I'd really appreciate everyone's help in constructing a set of needs to bridge the gap between the two interpretations, while keeping the ending pretty much intact. The set is almost done, but any input, suggestions, critique, hate, love, or visibility that you can offer is greatly appreciated.

The Meaningful Sacrifice thread's here: http://social.biowar.../index/11289479

What stops organics from committing genocide on each other?  Hitler was an organic...:happy:

[MassEffect762]

Sounds to me like they're just trying to rip off what Tron:Legacy touched on about 'Digital DNA' changing life as we know it.

[tute]

eddieoctane wrote...

tute wrote...
Seriously, if they wanted an "artistic vision", they should've taken some queues from the MAN, Sir Ridley Scott.

Screw Ridley Scott. They should have gotten Neil Degrasse Tyson as a technical consultant to get rid of the crap that leaves sci-fi and goes to pure D&D fantasy. HE is the MAN. Ridley was ok, but honestly, the rape metaphors throughout the entirety of the Alien franchise were rather off-putting.

That was all HR Giger and his biomechanical art. He is the creator of the alien creature and the whole backstory/mythology.

Wow, how long has it been since he's played ME1 & ME2??

Reapers are technically synthetic/ organic hybrids and the whole synthesis idea was the goal of Saren the VILLAIN of ME1 (why in ME3 would this suddenly be considered the good option). In ME2 they showed that the non-heretic geth wanted to self-determine their future but in ME3 this is reversed which I thought was odd (guess this should have been a red flag). Though even in ME3 we still see how synthetics/organics can get along!

I never saw the main theme as synthetic vs organic at all. I saw it as one of many subplots which was wrapped up nicely in the Rannoch mission. As others have pointed out, to me the main theme was unity with diversity, self-determination, and fighting the impossible while never giving up hope.

Did someone decide to go the organic/synthetic route for the main theme and not memo in the other writers? The whole series now feels extremely disjointed imo.

Was Gamble onboard for ME1? I have no idea.

So Mass Effect all along was just Battlestar Galactica: The interactive version?

WTF!?

you forgot to include terminator

[lx_theo]

Rob_Nix wrote...

Who is this Gamble dude and did he even play ME3?

He's a Producer for the game.

I suspect yes. Shame for him to have a different opinion, eh?

Modifié par lx_theo, 26 avril 2012 - 05:25 .

[warrior256]

I'm sorry Gamble, but even if you rob the entire galaxy of their freedom to determine how they live their lives, I don't think everyone would just put down their weapons and live in peace. I would still consider myself to be a human being if this happened. Not only that, but I would be furious with whoever caused this to happen (I doubt I would blame it on commander Shepard). Gamble, you clearly have no idea what this entire series is about if you thought that Organics vs Synthetics was the main theme with synthesis being the best ending.

[feliciano2040]

lx_theo wrote...

Rob_Nix wrote...

Who is this Gamble dude and did he even play ME3?

He's a Producer for the game.

I suspect yes. Shame for him to have a different opinion, eh?

BUT OF COURSE HE SHOULD BE ASHAMED !!!!!! THE RETAKERS ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE ANY SORT OF REASON IN THIS ARGUMENT !!!!!!!

Nope, not working.

[JPN17]

lx_theo wrote...

Stygian1 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Hell yes its an opinion.

If it wasn't an opinion, you wouldn't even get a say in what it means for your own interpretation. Whatever is put right there by Bioware would be absolute fact. Mass Effect 3 would be your end all, be all on the subject.

So yeah, damn those people who think differently! 

You clearly missed my point. 

Themes of stories (especially Sci-fi) are quite cut and dry. Secondly, it's one of the basic rules of storytelling to keep the overarching themes of a story in contstant perpetuality throughout the writing. The more discrepencies there are towards the overall point, the more watered down the overall message. 

Mass Effect has been about triumph through adversity and strength through differences. Like it or not, this is what has been presented to us through the entire series up to the ending. The last five minutes seemingly disregarded all themes preceding it, and in everyway destroyed all overarching themes of the story. That's simply bad story telling.

My point was Gamble obviously either decided to ignore the themes of the story he had already presented, or actually had no idea what he was presenting throughout three games. Not that he had a different opinion than me, but a different opinion from what he had been presenting for 90+ hours of story. 

I suspect you're missing the point. The themes are still how you see them. You obviously got the impression that those two were the big important themes. I personally didn't. I agree on the beating the odds one, but the Strength through diversity always felt more of a side note to the organic adn synthetic struggle.

As for how they worked in the ending...

Beating the Odds... Check (Death=/=Not Triumphant)

Organic/Synthetic Struggle... Check (This is a theme, even if you choose to to label it as minor, or ignore it entirely)

Strength through diversity... I'm going to say Check.

Why? Synthesis is interesting, since it has severeal ways you can approach it theme wise. Personally, I agree with Gamble on destroy not being the best ending. I personally like Synthesis the best.

How I see it is that strength through diversity has been shown in the games by those of diversity coming together under one banner.

Aliens on the Normandy in ME1. Specialists of all background, skills, and species in ME2. Bringing together as many species and types of people as you can to fight the Reapers in ME3. Synthesis does this, in that it creates all life to simply be... life. The obvious implied followthrough of synthesis is that it does not take away each individual species' and individuals' uniqueness. It makes it so that synthetics and organics are brought under one banner of life rather than the categories that set them against each other before.

So I think it fits thematically. So damn those opinions! Good day to you.

Themes can be interpreted differently by different people, but the themes themselves don't change. Life already is life. Synthetic, Organic, hybrid, it's still life. It didn't suddenly change into life because of synthesis. You can say damn these opinions over and over all you want, but that's the telltale sign of someone who doesn't have an argument so they shout something over and over again knowing that there's several people out there who will believe it. You can have your opinion all you want and that's fine, but if you were writing a paper on this for a classic literature course, well you'd get an F. There's a difference between having an opinion based on facts and having one based on faulty judgment and poor reasoning. And yours is based on the latter.

[Noelemahc]

So Mass Effect all along was just Battlestar Galactica: The interactive version?

WTF!?

you forgot to include terminator

And Farscape. And Babylon 5. And Starship Troopers. And Firefly. And lots of other cool neat sci-fi.

While one of the main themes is organics vs synthetics from BSG, there's also a lot of "humanity will blend together" common to space romance, "humanity is superior" in most of its interpretations from Farscape, ecksetra, ecksetra. Plus all the whole plot references and/or copy-pastes =)

[feliciano2040]

JPN17 wrote...

Themes can be interpreted differently by different people, but the themes themselves don't change. Life already is life. Synthetic, Organic, hybrid, it's still life. It didn't suddenly change into life because of synthesis. You can say damn these opinions over and over all you want, but that's the telltale sign of someone who doesn't have an argument so they shout something over and over again knowing that there's several people out there who will believe it. You can have your opinion all you want and that's fine, but if you were writing a paper on this for a classic literature course, well you'd get an F. There's a difference between having an opinion based on facts and having one based on faulty judgment and poor reasoning. And yours is based on the latter.

Arrogance. It is strong with this one.

[JPN17]

feliciano2040 wrote...

JPN17 wrote...

Themes can be interpreted differently by different people, but the themes themselves don't change. Life already is life. Synthetic, Organic, hybrid, it's still life. It didn't suddenly change into life because of synthesis. You can say damn these opinions over and over all you want, but that's the telltale sign of someone who doesn't have an argument so they shout something over and over again knowing that there's several people out there who will believe it. You can have your opinion all you want and that's fine, but if you were writing a paper on this for a classic literature course, well you'd get an F. There's a difference between having an opinion based on facts and having one based on faulty judgment and poor reasoning. And yours is based on the latter.

Arrogance. It is strong with this one.

And? What a pointless response.

[Jassu1979]

Boiling down ME to "synthetics vs. organics" shows about as much understanding of the concept of a literary theme as summarizing DA:O with the phrase: "killing lots of darkspawn".

That's not Mass Effect's major theme, that's just one of its numerous plot points - and one that has been considerably weakened by retconning the geth and introducing EDI in ME2 and ME3.

Central themes of the Mass Effect series were:

Strength through diversity. (Violated in particular by the Synthesis ending).
The importance of cooperation and friendship. (Violated by ALL of the endings.)
Defying "Fate"/ the importance of free choice and autonomy. (Violated by ALL of the endings.)
Perseverance in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds vs. choosing the "easy" path. (Again, violated by ALL of the endings.)

And finally:
What defines life, and what makes it worthwhile? (The synthetic vs. organic-plot belongs to this theme.)

[stevefox1200]

Its wrong for me to say that I know more about a story than the person who wrote it

but seriously now

I am starting to think that each writer had a "favorite theme" and just wrote that and ignored the rest

[whiteraider]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

You know what's funny? Is that for the next year or so, the devs/mods will continue to act like the endings are magnificient, and that the fans are stupid and don't know what they're talking about. But deep down they'll always know that the fans know WAY more about the games and it's lore than they do. Deep down they know the endings are terrible and most people hate them. I would say within a year or so, one of the devs/writers will come forward and say,

"Yea, we/they screwed up."

It'll take awhile, and whoever says it probably won't be a Bioware Employee anymore at the time it happens. But it's only a matter of time.

Not while they  are employed by EA, EA would hang, draw and quarter them before impailing the servered heads on the office car park gates, as a warning to the rest!

After they have found/started a new studio to produce the products they want to - maybe! But I suspect  that even then EA's NDA would still result in the above, after the lawers have sucked them dry first!
:innocent::whistle:

[Madecologist]

Edit - I am refering to the first quote in the OP. The theme misinterpertation... though sad... is nothing compared to a larger issue I am seeing here....

Wait what?! Really... no one at Bioware even thinks about the ethical ramification of what Synthesis does? Doesn't matter everyone gets hit by 100mg of Prozac after and everyone is happy. Actually that makes it worst. You don't just change people's bodies without their consent, you change their minds and perception.

This is not just physical violation now, but mental as well.

Am I the only one who seeing the moral atrocity here? The ethical nightmare this presents?

The fact people at Bioware seem to think this is okay... sick.. feeling... in... stomach. I hope they stay in game development and none of them decides to make a career change into politics...

This is not fanrage anymore... this is a honest human being, who is emotionally appalled at this. If the writers reconise the ethics of the decision, then it is fine to have it. Many stories have questionable moralities in the narrative. They make for intense antagonists or plot points, or it explores such darker themes.

But if it is handwaved... or not even reconised... this is disturbing. Note: It is not the presense of it in the story that distraughts me, it is the "meta" attitude they have to it as writers and developers that is bothering me.

Modifié par Madecologist, 26 avril 2012 - 06:34 .

[Zuka999]

If they really roll with this crap I'm just selling my games and never touching a Mass Effect-related thing ever again. This ending is a travesty. The StarBrat needs to go, the choices need to go, your forced themes need to go.

[feliciano2040]

Zuka999 wrote...

If they really roll with this crap I'm just selling my games and never touching a Mass Effect-related thing ever again. This ending is a travesty. The StarBrat needs to go, the choices need to go, your forced themes need to go.

Believe it when I see it.

[Jassu1979]

Here's what Mordin Solus had to say on the topic of a synthetic "final step of evolution" in Mass Effect 2:

"Disrupts socio-technological balance. All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming, compensating for limitations. Can't carry a load - so invent wheel. Can't catch food - so invent spear. Limitations: no limitations, no advancement. No advancement - culture stagnates. Works other way, too: advancement before culture is ready. Disastrous. Saw it with krogan. Uplifted by salarians: disastrous."

Here's what Legion had to say on the topic:

"An interesting choice, Shepard-Commander: your species was offered everything geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your species' own terms. You are more like us than we thought."

Finally, here's what Shepard has to say on the matter, mere seconds before the disastrous star child introduction:

"You're playing with things you don't understand. With power you shouldn't be able to use."
"I... don't believe that. If we can control it, why shouldn't it be ours?"
"Because we're not ready."


So.... apparently, quite a few people on the writing team understood what's so disastrous about synthesis, as evidenced by the in-game dialogue. Which only goes to show that the ending was not peer-reviewed, making it stick out like the incompatible graft that it is.

Modifié par Jassu1979, 26 avril 2012 - 08:51 .

[Jassu1979]

What - no condescending/scathing comments from the ending apologists/trolls? I'm... almost disappointed.

[snakeboy86]

Yeah no I didn't get that impression at all..I've played all three and I still can't see it how it fits into the ending..at all

[Cpt. Howdy]

I can see where they were trying to go with Synthesis and it is a nice thought I guess. But besides the ethical and logical problems, it is just naive to assume that Synthisis would solve anything. If somehow creating a new genetic code without changing the affected individual's personality is really all that Synthesis does, there is no way that this would secure galactic peace. Sure, organics might not be wiped out by synthetics anymore but what stops these new cyber-organics from wiping out each other?

Modifié par Cpt. Howdy, 26 avril 2012 - 10:36 .

[Wulfram]

Synthetic vs Organic was a big theme, particularly of ME1. But as an inevitable conflict, it was downplayed in ME2 and (most of) ME3 - the Geth were no more inherently hostile than the Krogan or the Turians, and EDI isn't at all hostile.

The synthesis choice at the end just plain doesn't make sense.

[wright1978]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Here's what Mordin Solus had to say on the topic of a synthetic "final step of evolution" in Mass Effect 2:

"Disrupts socio-technological balance. All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming, compensating for limitations. Can't carry a load - so invent wheel. Can't catch food - so invent spear. Limitations: no limitations, no advancement. No advancement - culture stagnates. Works other way, too: advancement before culture is ready. Disastrous. Saw it with krogan. Uplifted by salarians: disastrous."

Here's what Legion had to say on the topic:

"An interesting choice, Shepard-Commander: your species was offered everything geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your species' own terms. You are more like us than we thought."

Finally, here's what Shepard has to say on the matter, mere seconds before the disastrous star child introduction:

"You're playing with things you don't understand. With power you shouldn't be able to use."
"I... don't believe that. If we can control it, why shouldn't it be ours?"
"Because we're not ready."


So.... apparently, quite a few people on the writing team understood what's so disastrous about synthesis, as evidenced by the in-game dialogue. Which only goes to show that the ending was not peer-reviewed, making it stick out like the incompatible graft that it is.

Mordin rocks.

[tanuki]

[quote]Mystiq6 wrote...

<Gamble tweets>

[/quote]

What is it I don't even

[quote]Fan:
Did I miss something then? I don't recall organic vs synthetic being all that big of a theme.

Gamble:
geth vs organics. reapers vs organics.[/quote]

[/quote]
Except we learn in ME2 that Geth became hostile only in self-defence and in ME3 Shepard can broker peace between them and quarians.

As about Reapers, it's even more stupid.
Wheter they are organic or technoorganic, according to Gamble, they are now also part of the "synthetic VS organics" problem, which is apparently the main theme of the game now.

But then...  Reapers themselves created that problem then by starting to kill organics. Because they wanted to prevent organics to be killed by synthetics...  And then the leader of the Reapers aka Starchild offer the "Synthesis solution"... to get rid of the same problem it itself created in the first place?

My head starts to hurt when trying to analyse that recursive nonsense.