209 réponses à ce sujet

[Gill Kaiser]

I accepted EDI and the Geth as life from the very beginning. In ME1 I opposed the Geth because of their actions, nothing more. The Reapers are monstrous because of their actions also. The fact that they're synthetic is irrelevant.

Synthetics vs organics was a subtheme at best.

[DamonD7]

I do wonder, for instance, what the hell Harbinger thinks if the Synthesis choice is taken.

"Boy, is my face red" doesn't even begin to cover it. How on earth is a creature like that going to handle such a drastic change in its very nature?

[Paragon_Interrupt]

Well dang.

Tuchanka/Genophage arc confirmed as thematically insignificant.

Self determination frowned upon. Synthesis ending preferred and canonical.
Must violate entire universe to save entire universe.

Green glowing baseball hat confirmed as apex of evolution.

[Nauks]

Statements like these on Twitter...

I guess he's trying to ****** us off to keep us talking about the game? :/ I dunno.
Organics vs Synthetics as the main theme of Mass Effect inflammatory statement of the day.

It was a grat subplot for the Quarians and Geth, but shoehorning it in as the finale for the series, not so hot.

[Sindrop]

Uh, I've had impression that ME theme is struggle of one man to stop the inenvitable, and geth vs quarians arc is just some addition to universe. I also thought that reapers are machines just because synthetic enemy with unknown goal is more... Dark and scary?

[DJBare]

FBI-Azzurri wrote...

One of the major themes of Mass Effect was the galaxy being able to exist as one through Galactic Diversity, each race being unique and different and bringing different ideas and assets to the table. Too bad this theme goes down the toilet if you pick the green ending...Word of advice...Pick red

QFT, this is always the impression the theme gave me.

Let me compare synthesis to something people are more familiar with, imagine everyone on this forum in full agreement, no more discussion, what's the point when everyone is in full agreement, so the forum stagnates and dies.

[EnvyTB075]

Geth vs Organics as a major plot focus?

Portrayed in ME lore as Quarians vs Geth, then subverted as Faction of Geth vs Quarians, subverted even further with Geth + Quarians = peace.

The Geth were portrayed in ME1 as the bad guys (Saren) private army. If the Geth were to remain as the primary plot device, they would have been the ultimate baddies in ME2, instead they were replaced.

Nothing in ME1, ME2 and ME3 hinted at Organics vs Synthetics as the primary plot point that the player is meant to have a philosophical/emotional attachment to. The Geth are simply the baddies that you have to kill.

[davishepard]

The theme always was organics vs. machines. In his first mission that opens the first game, Shepard sees Sovereign, and in the game he learns about this machines race that want to wipe all galactic life. Geths are a plus.
You will only fail to see this if you are too arrogant and think that you know more about the game than its creators, what happens to be the case of many people here on BSN.

[The Night Mammoth]

davishepard wrote...

The theme always was organics vs. machines.

A theme, yes. 

You say 'machines' though, not 'synthetics'.

There were several more important themes that this.

Self-determination, unity, diversity, overcoming impossible odds by working together, sacrifice. None of these have acceptable coverage. They're ignored, largely. 

If you think the Catalyst's problem was foreshadowed or inkeeping with the plot and themes Mass Effect contains then you don't know what you're talking about. 

In his first mission that opens the first game, Shepard sees Sovereign, and in the game he learns about this machines race that want to wipe all galactic life. Geths are a plus.

You learn nothing of the sort in the first mission, but nice try. Sovereign is, at the time, and unidentified Geth ship. Saren had bearly come on the scene at that point, and we had no idea what the Reapers were yet. Did you play Mass Effect 1? 

Keeping that view of the Geth obviously means you never activated Legion, talked to Tali, or completed Rannoch.

It's not 'organics versus the Reapers', it's 'everyone against the Reapers', that includes the Geth and EDI. 

You will only fail to see this if you are too arrogant and think that you know more about the game than its creators, what happens to be the case of many people here on BSN.

Fans can easily know more about the game's lore and themes than the creators, that's evident by this whole fiasco. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 26 avril 2012 - 12:28 .

[EnvyTB075]

davishepard wrote...
The theme always was organics vs. machines. In his first mission that opens the first game, Shepard sees Sovereign.

At this point in time, it is merely a ship. The Geth being lead by their Organic antagonist are the big baddies.

davishepard wrote...
You will only fail to
see this if you are too arrogant and think that you know more about the
game than its creators, what happens to be the case of many people here
on BSN.

Just because it falls under the umbrella plot device of "Reapers vs Everyone" doesn't make it the singular theme that stands out above the rest.

Geth vs Reapers immediately invalidates the whole Organics vs Synthetics plot point.

[aj2070]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...

Fan:
Did I miss something then? I don't recall organic vs synthetic being all that big of a theme.

Gamble:
geth vs organics. reapers vs organics.

ARGH! This makes me rage. The Geth don't really care about organics, they want to "self-determinate" and they like the idea of all life "self-determinating". They only attack in self defense! Was Gamble asleep when they went over the ENTIRE GETH STORY ARC in ME2? In ME1 you could arguer this, but ME2 kicks it firmly in the head and kills the idea that the geth are basically terminators on the fringe of the galaxy just waiting for the right time to invade and kill all organics while twirling thier fake evil mustaches. At best, this idea is a side-theme.

Next point: Reapers versus organics. This is bunk according to ME1. I literally just got done replaying the end of Virmire and Saren basically says that the geth would've also been destoryed, but they were submitting to the will of Soverign to prove themselves good tools and thus be saved from destruction. If they weren't, it's implied they would be on the chopping block the same as the Humans, Asari, Quarians, etc etc.

The Reapers aren't just focusing on organic life, they focus on ALL highly advanced civs (as per ME1). Get your crap together Gamble and understand what came before! You can't just hijack the motivation of a timeless Space horror just because you've watched the matrix and decided to mix it with DX:HR!

+1

I just finished the Mass Effect 2 suicide mission again and one of the conversations I had around that time was with Legion on the geth.  First as Ticonderoga says, sure it is possible to believe all geth want to wipe out all organic life in Mass Effect but Legion makes it clear that the council and alliance have not been fighting the "geth", they have been fighting heretics or an offshoot of the geth who worship the reapers.  Legion then goes on to say that the geth believe that all "sapient life" to use its term, has the right to self-determine; that would be organic and synthetic life.  Furthermore, when Shepard asks Legion about if organics would be affected by the geth seeking their own future, Legion replies "only if they involve themselves" or something like that.

Finally, Mass Effect 3 goes through great effort to show the gamer that the Mourning War (the geth vs. organic war) was a result of the quarians trying to deactivate the geth.  The geth stop persuing the quarians when they no longer see them as a threat.  Again, this is not the behavior of a malevolent "organics are a threat" synthetic race.  As currently portrayed in the Mass Effect franchise we the gamers have played, the only difference between the geth and any other species in the Mass Effect universe is that the geth are synthetic.

Sorry to say it Mystiq6, but Mike Gamble is clueless.  Either that or he is playing a different franchise than we are.

Modifié par aj2070, 26 avril 2012 - 12:28 .

[DJBare]

davishepard wrote...

The theme always was organics vs. machines. In his first mission that opens the first game, Shepard sees Sovereign, and in the game he learns about this machines race that want to wipe all galactic life. Geths are a plus.
You will only fail to see this if you are too arrogant and think that you know more about the game than its creators, what happens to be the case of many people here on BSN.

Reapers are an amalgamation of organic and synthetic.

[richard_rider]

Not really...it's actually organics vs reapers, it's survival vs destruction, sentience, individuality strength through diversity. Not this shamble of a plot; the only reason synthetics ever attacked organics is:
1) Quarians tried to wipe out the Geth, and the Geth defended themselves
2) The reapers try to wipe out all organic life
3) The Geth are under reaper control and try to kill organic life
4) Rogue VIs

To me, that's never been the main theme, it's a side theme, yes, but not the main one. Otherwise you just go against almost 3 full games of getting along with different synthetics, setting them free, and/or bringing them full sentience, which in turn gives them the full conscious decision to help you, fight for you, and even die for you.

That's not even a cop out, that's just...I can't even think of a strong enough word.

That'd be like saying LotR isn't about destroying the ring, it's about crowning the true king of men, it's not, it's about destroying the ring, yes the king gets found, gets crowned, but that wasn't the main point.

[dreaming_raithe]

If they meant for the main theme to be synthetics vs. organics, they must not have communicated that to all the people that wrote ME2 and most of ME3. Maybe they didn't get that memo...

[The Night Mammoth]

DJBare wrote...

davishepard wrote...

The theme always was organics vs. machines. In his first mission that opens the first game, Shepard sees Sovereign, and in the game he learns about this machines race that want to wipe all galactic life. Geths are a plus.
You will only fail to see this if you are too arrogant and think that you know more about the game than its creators, what happens to be the case of many people here on BSN.

Reapers are an amalgamation of organic and synthetic.

So really, it was 'everyone versus hybrids'. 

That's considerably different to 'organics versus synthetics'. 

[zaeeds rage]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

davishepard wrote...
The theme always was organics vs. machines. In his first mission that opens the first game, Shepard sees Sovereign.

At this point in time, it is merely a ship. The Geth being lead by their Organic antagonist are the big baddies.

Imagine if they kept the batarians as Saren's henchmen as originally intended. It further diminishes synthetic vs organics as the central theme.

[SimonTheFrog]

Mike Gamble didn't realize "Geth" are software. They are not "synthetic" or "machine".

This is one major point in ME2.

The other is, that the one and only enemy is the reapers. The geth only join their cause the same way Saren does: tactics. Not because they are AGAINST organics. They just want to survive.

He should get his facts right and then return with some valid statements.
This pointless musing about ME doesn't help anybody, I'm sorry.

[DJBare]

richard_rider wrote...
3) The Geth are under reaper control and try to kill organic life

Have to use the term "control" loosely in this respect, in ME1 the heretics (as we came to know them in ME2) chose to follow Soverign because they saw him as a god, Legion explains in ME2 that Nazara saw their worship as an insult but used it for his own cause.

[EnvyTB075]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

DJBare wrote...

davishepard wrote...

The theme always was organics vs. machines. In his first mission that opens the first game, Shepard sees Sovereign, and in the game he learns about this machines race that want to wipe all galactic life. Geths are a plus.
You will only fail to see this if you are too arrogant and think that you know more about the game than its creators, what happens to be the case of many people here on BSN.

Reapers are an amalgamation of organic and synthetic.

So really, it was 'everyone versus hybrids'. 

That's considerably different to 'organics versus synthetics'. 

If you want to be nitpicky, Shepard is a hybrid because of his/her cybernetics infusing and enhancing his/her organic abilities. Applied to all races that cybernetically enhance their bodies, and you further diminish the theme.

If you want to be really really really nitpicky (and a bit liberal in interpretation (i'm in year 12 english again!)), the organic part of the reaper is the reapers "mind", and the machine part is its body, Shep mirrors this symbiosis.

SimonTheFrog wrote...
Mike Gamble didn't realize "Geth" are software. They are not "synthetic" or "machine".

This this this a million times over.  Extrapolating, EDI cannot die in destruction due to her primary existance within data banks of the Normandy as software.

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 26 avril 2012 - 12:56 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Do we really know how reapers are built?

We see big tubes with orange goo and we see mostly metal parts that build a space ship with a humungous laser thingy attached.

There is nothing organic about them from what we see. Their "mind" is also very AI-like from what we see. We even collect "reaper code fragments" at some part.

Another point is: if you have tech in your body, that doesn't mean you're a hybrid. People have cardiac pacemaker for decades.. .that doesn't make them "Hybrids".

As long as we grow, eat, reproduce and use our brain for self-awareness there is no real sense in saying we are not humans. I know that there's a lot of fiction out there musing about merging organics and tech but mostly it's just humans with a lot of tech attached to the body. That is nothing more than a cardiac pacemaker from a theoretical point of view. It's not a big deal, it's not changing our nature or questions our being as such.

[The Night Mammoth]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...
Mike Gamble didn't realize "Geth" are software. They are not "synthetic" or "machine".

This this this a million times over.  Extrapolating, They (the Geth) EDI cannot die in destruction due her primary existance within the Normandys data banks as software.

Looks like I have a viable option to choose now. Everyone survives, the Normandy crew use their Kodiak to jump back to Earth via FTL, Shepard lives.

The Relays still explode but........... we can ignore that part of the game. 

[MinatheBrat]

eddieoctane wrote...

Someone needs to explain to Mike how life seems to spring up from out of the ooze on a lot of worlds in Mass Effect. So unless the Crucible does away with physics in its entirety, organics will still come into being eventually. And you can still create a pure synthetic from raw metal and silicon. All synthesis does is put off the Reapers return to kill everyone for longer than control.

Stop making sense right now!!!

[Shaigunjoe]

How could anyone miss that organic versus synthetic was a major theme of ME. I think the number one theme for the game is probably determined by the users, but synthetic vs organic is a MAJOR theme of the series, it is the conflict that is central to the entire story.

[EnvyTB075]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

How could anyone miss that organic versus synthetic was a major theme of ME. I think the number one theme for the game is probably determined by the users, but synthetic vs organic is a MAJOR theme of the series, it is the conflict that is central to the entire story.

Which is only brought to the fore as central to Shepards motivations, NOT just Tali/Quarians motivations, at the end of Mass Effect 3.

It is a theme, no one is denying that its there, but compared to all the other themes of Mass Effect that has been carried over through 3 seperate games, Organics vs Synthetics has been relegated as a Quarian/Geth problem and ONLY a Quarian/Geth problem.

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 26 avril 2012 - 01:15 .

[JudgeRAW00]

In my opinion, there is little different between synthesis and genocide. Synthesis destroys individuality, and is simply a way for others to cope with their own prejudices. It completely wipes out various forms of life in the name of desegregation. It'd be little different than if, to rid ourselves of racism, we decided to combine whites and blacks into one race so that racism doesn't exist. It doesn't do anything about the human problem of becoming acclimated with those who are different than us, or those we don't understand. It simply hides it so it no longer happens. It's a very ignorant solution to me. I can't believe someone who think this up and think it's a good solution. I can only imagine the ignorance of such a person when it comes to racial/cultural differences. Instead of coexisting we just create a utopia of sameness... this isn't a solution. Read The Giver.