88 réponses à ce sujet

[Lexa_D]

Great post and useful comments, thanx everyone!

[Whisp69]

M A F I A wrote...

About Phantoms: I noticed that instakill moves are practically a certainty when you are reviving a teammate near a camping phantom EVEN if you are cloacked. The impression that I got is that she likes to kill a friend of yours, camp over his body waiting for a "medic" and then instakill him. I've seen it happen so many times that I am starting to believe it may be a pattern.

This could be so true ... also Phantoms like to camp with their friends, especially with Nemesis' as they don't have melee attacks, so Phantoms camp often next to them waiting for the Vanguard, Krogan, Battarian.

Also keep in mind that all the melee move fisrt OHK-ers don't need to attack you for their instant kill neither do they need to land the hit, they just have to perform the move.

Another note on Phantoms, it seems they only user their cloak once their barrier is down, before that I haven't seen them use cloak.

[AlexMBrennan]

(though not enough time to whip out and use a rocket launcher, unfortunately), and a Banshee will drop the player if his or her teammates manages to kill or even simply stagger her before she completes the heinous deed. Thus, if you see a teammate in the clutches of a Banshee, don't just shoot her (unless she'll actually go down from the bullets in time)

I am not sure if I agree with this. HitReactionChanceMultiplier is 0.3, so three good hits should stagger the banshee, which should be doable with three team mates. On the other hand, PowerThreshold_Stagger is 1.2k (phantom: only 700), which, if I am interpreting this correctly, means that it should be very hard to stagger the banshee with a vanguard charge (force 750).

Note that I haven't actually played a vanguard on gold since, in my experience, they tend to leave on wave 1 or get killed seconds into every wave. However, I tend to trust the hard numbers more than "experience" because it's almost always wrong.

Edit to add: Further, you're wrong about the phantom being the only enemy to seek melee-range combat. The banshee will try to close to instant-kill range using her teleports - she has a limited number of hops per charge (12 on gold), however, and is quite slow otherwise; since people will usually have the sense to run away that leaves her unable to use instant kills, forcing her to rely on ranged attacks until her charge cooldown has finished.

However, if the target doesn't run then she'll close to range using charge and stab them [happens every time during wave 11 on bronze]

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 26 avril 2012 - 11:07 .

[-Sxx-]

Revrant wrote...

He specifically explains what he's referring to and how it has nothing to do with her barriers, do reread.

Funny, I still recall being on the receiving end when she's got her BLUE SHIELD, up. Have to do a suicide run sometime and see.

Modifié par Dest1ny, 26 avril 2012 - 11:00 .

[Whisp69]

AlexMBrennan wrote...
I am not sure if I agree with this. HitReactionChanceMultiplier is 0.3, so three good hits should stagger the banshee, which should be doable with three team mates. On the other hand, PowerThreshold_Stagger is 1.2k (phantom: only 700), which, if I am interpreting this correctly, means that it should be very hard to stagger the banshee with a vanguard charge (force 750). 

Hmm 1.2k you say .... but that would mean that a Throw setup for full force [4: Force, 6Force & Damage] wich is 1200 Force, Plus Racial 4 Damage wich increases it to 1380 Force would be enough to stagger a Banshee ... wich I havent seen until now. Only the BE from Warp Throw (or any other combination with 6/6 and detonation Evolve) stagger her enough to free a picked up Squad member.

But I'll try this today and see if it staggers her.

[LordOpic]

Forum admin, please sticky this. Getting tired watching Krogon Van's seeing a Banshee trying to melee it and me wasting a rocket trying to save their arse.

Great post, good info.

[AlexMBrennan]

Whisp69 wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...
I am not sure if I agree with this. HitReactionChanceMultiplier is 0.3, so three good hits should stagger the banshee, which should be doable with three team mates. On the other hand, PowerThreshold_Stagger is 1.2k (phantom: only 700), which, if I am interpreting this correctly, means that it should be very hard to stagger the banshee with a vanguard charge (force 750). 

Hmm 1.2k you say .... but that would mean that a Throw setup for full force [4: Force, 6Force & Damage] wich is 1200 Force, Plus Racial 4 Damage wich increases it to 1380 Force would be enough to stagger a Banshee ... wich I havent seen until now. Only the BE from Warp Throw (or any other combination with 6/6 and detonation Evolve) stagger her enough to free a picked up Squad member.

But I'll try this today and see if it staggers her.

Good point. As I said, the effect of that variable is guesswork. I'm very trigger happy with the missile launcher when playing against banshees. 

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 26 avril 2012 - 11:31 .

[N7Kopper]

Dest1ny wrote...

Revrant wrote...

He specifically explains what he's referring to and how it has nothing to do with her barriers, do reread.

Funny, I still recall being on the receiving end when she's got her BLUE SHIELD, up. Have to do a suicide run sometime and see.

The blue aura and the barrier are two entirely separate things.
The blue aura is (obviously) a graphical indicator of the Banshee's current attack mode.
The barrier is a form of hit points.

[Eckswhyzed]

Dest1ny wrote...

Revrant wrote...

He specifically explains what he's referring to and how it has nothing to do with her barriers, do reread.

Funny, I still recall being on the receiving end when she's got her BLUE SHIELD, up. Have to do a suicide run sometime and see.

When she's in attack mode, that's when she can instakill you. Or did you not read the OP? Or did you mean when her blue shield that's not her barrier is DOWN, you were grabbed?


Done some more testing and I'm pretty damn sure she auto-staggers when her PURPLE BARRIERS are taken down. Not sure about force staggering though.

[invalidusernameX]

Very nice guide.
I happened to destroy a phantom's sword in MP. To be honest it was accidental, I was aiming for the head, and it didn't serve me well since she killed me with her laser hand afterward...

[Glaso]

Also with the banshees, popping the kroguard/sentinel shield makes her to release you.

[Baine10]

There are essential points missing.

[Brute Instakill] - [Windup] = Red eyes, roared. Anyone near will be instakilled if windup is not stopped.
[Stop Windup] - Enough damage within a small window of time (Staggered slightly, will not instakill)
[Red eye activated] - Slightly more damage needs to be dealt in the same window.

[Banshee Instakill] - To reliably spot, Black "Aura" around in a circle of the banshee.

[Phantom Instakill] -
Heavy Melee on a stationary phantom (standard pose with hand infront) [triggers phantom "counterstrike instantkill"]
Melee range of a stationary phantom in standard pose for 1 full second - Instakill

Melee strike of a phantom will usually stagger you long enough for her to instakill you. I rate it a 33% chance she'll go stationary after a single sword strike attack (thus triggering the instakill)

Phantoms can "double-strike" in one sword swoop[Swing sword one round followed by a 135 degree forward swoop] , you will not get instakilled if both hits connect and you survive because you'll be too far for the instakill to activate

[paincanbefun]

comprehensive. thank you. i wish i had you on the radio instead of the annoying shuttle pilot.

two questions for anyone:

1. will a batarian heavy melee stagger a banshee?

2. i seem to have had good luck recently kiting phantoms from just out of melee range while shooting them with a revenant (lots of stagger from headshots). i have very high shields/dr, so i might be able to just tough it out, but i think there's a range at which they stop shooting but still can't melee. anyone else experience this?

[Baine10]

paincanbefun wrote...

comprehensive. thank you. i wish i had you on the radio instead of the annoying shuttle pilot.

two questions for anyone:

1. will a batarian heavy melee stagger a banshee?

2. i seem to have had good luck recently kiting phantoms from just out of melee range while shooting them with a revenant (lots of stagger from headshots). i have very high shields/dr, so i might be able to just tough it out, but i think there's a range at which they stop shooting but still can't melee. anyone else experience this?

1. As a single hit, no. Combined with other fire = high chance

2. No. I've had phantoms hit me with their plamcannons in melee range before swinging her sword. (she shot first and without moving forward, swung her sword.) Gold Difficulty.

[paincanbefun]

thanks.

too bad, i thought the idea of a phantom sweet spot was clever.

[Farmtech-Ru]

Phantom note - I observed them instakill on the first move and it's quite unlikely that they had the time to do normal melee to anyone (possible, just not likely)
Phantoms are really shield dependant and AoE prone, so nades + drain or drain + nades.
Batarian note on phantoms - they don't seem to be able to interrupt power melee once it started, and in case of batarian heavy melee + timed bomb from blades it's a staggerfest. They also rock from the shockwave, if that shockwave works as it should and doesn't missfire into nowhere.

Edit PS: phantom not killed by batarian melee bleeds glamorously from under the helmet - a must see.

Modifié par Farmtech-Ru, 26 avril 2012 - 01:29 .

[AlexMBrennan]

OK, did some testing on that first brute you encounter in the campaign. As far as I can tell, PowerThreshold_Stagger is what you want for powers. With a sentinel throw with 840N, and +10% passive, the brute is staggered if PowerThreshold_Stagger is 800, and not staggered if PowerThreshold_Stagger is 1200.

PowerThreshold_Standard seems to briefly make it pause, and may be what it takes to interrupt a stabbing banshee [can't really test this since I can't edit files for MP]
I don't know what PowerThreshold_Knockback does (setting it to 1 doesn't do anything); I'd conjecture that it is related to rag-doll threshold (which doesn't apply to armoured targets) but setting it to 10k on a cannibal doesn't seem to anything either...

[nwj94]

Impressive and comprehensive, wish more people wrote guides like this. I already knew about phantoms, but have always just given banshees/brutes/atlases a wide birth. Now with this guide I might start getting a little more aggressive with them.

Kudos

[amireal]

Chompythebeast wrote...

One of the game's loading screen recommendations (I'm sure you've all seen it) informs us that we can actually shoot the sword out of a Phantom's hand, thus depriving her of her instakill and melee abilities. 

I would like to say that I have managed this, with a shotgun while trying to back away from the phantom. I don't think it is worth trying to do it, just something that is a bit of good luck when it happens.

[Mabari Owns High Dragon The 2nd]

A very good read and very helpful to me! I always heard it said "When the Banshees barriers were down", I didn't know it was an actual "Aura" that had be down. Anyway, great job!

Some things I'd like to add/say-v
- The second paragraph and second sentence about the Phantom lists Phantoms and Brutes, hyphen, then Brutes and Banshees. This may have been a typo so I thought you'd like to know.
- It is my understanding that they only instakill you when they are actively engaging you. For example: a player being chased by a Phantom can have someone else melee the Phantom safely. I've tested this on all four instakill-able enemies, and I'm 90% sure its accurate. Of course, enemeis can quickly switch targets, which is very dangerous, unless a certain player keeps the enemies attention via "Threat Damage", which seems to be how the enemies target players (Based on damage dealt). Even if they're standing still, if they are not "facing" you then you are not under thier "attention".

Modifié par Mabari Owns High Dragon The 2nd, 26 avril 2012 - 03:20 .

[Atalanta]

 Really, really nice guide. I learned a ton from it, and I've been playing fairly regularly since the demo first came out.
Thanks for taking the time to write it. 

[LiquidFooFoo]

Two nights ago I was playing Gold (random). It turned out to be Ghost vs. Cerberus. I was playing AJ, 2 others from BSN were AA's, and a 4th pug was a Human Soldier (w/Revenant 1).

As I was running for a device objective, a Phantom appeared in the doorway in front of me, between me and the direction of the 1st device. I cast Reave and moved slightly forward (a mistake), looked slightly downwards and threw up my Warp spec'd Bubble. One of the AA's who was out and watching in spectator mode groans and the camera zooms in as a Cerberus made sword pierces my torso.

At this point the game realized it owed me a bubble stagger + BE, because next thing I know I'm standing further back outside the bubble, looking at the Reaved Phantom prancing inside the bubble all confused. Long story short, we were able to finish the objectives (w/2 of us) and complete the wave.

Since I hadn't experienced any lag, I assume it's a bug.

Justicars. Where taking a sword through the gut and shrugging it off is all in a days work! :happy:

Modifié par LiquidFooFoo, 26 avril 2012 - 04:32 .

[Pitznik]

You're like Abraham van Helsing

[FreddyFoxtrot]

nice post, thanks a lot for the clarification

but i am really afraid some undocumented update (ninja patch if u wish) will eventually change instakill requirements on atlases and banshees and make a lot of people unhappy

[Delta 57 Dash]

Some dev posted on another thread that the Atlas, Phantom, and Brute will ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS attempt a normal melee move before doing their instant-kill, while the Banshee's instant kill is completely random.

I'll see if I can find it...

EDIT:

Here you go: 
http://social.biowar...x/11331435&lf=8

Banshee insta-kill is random, all the others are ONLY after a melee attack.

So charging a Brute at the beginning of a round is perfectly safe.  But once they charge/swing at you, back up for a couple of seconds, then go back in.

Modifié par Delta 57 Dash, 26 avril 2012 - 05:41 .