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[SleepIncarnate]

Ok, so last night, I had an odd realization.  ManShep has about 50% more romantic options than FemShep, and more straight ones too.  Ok, let me break it down.  Either Shep can romance Diana Allers or Liara, and if they survive into this game and through to the end, also can romance Kelly Chambers or Kaidan again.  Kaidan being bi I feel is a nice change, going back to intended original plans (though part of me wishes Ashley and Tali likewise became bi in ME3).  Now, ManShep has 5 exclusive to him assuming they all survived:  Miranda, Jack, Tali, Ashley, and Steve.  FemShep only has 2 exclusive: Garrus and Traynor.  Garrus and Tali are only available if you romanced them in ME2.   So in situations where playing as a FemShep, if you chose Ashley to survie on Virmire and did not romance Garrus in ME2 (instead romancing say Jacob), there is no male option for FemShep in 3. 

I'm on my first run through of ME3, and I'm in that kind of situation, where I chose Ashley to survive on Virmire (I'm an Adept and wanted the extra firepower) and didn't romance anyone in ME2 (I chose to remain loyal to Liara), and I'll continue being loytal to Liara in ME3, but what about my Infiltrator run through?  If I don't romance Garrus, then after the end of the first act, I have no straight romance options and am forced into either not having one, or being lesbian/bi. 

I personally am ok with same sex relationships, and wish we'd had more options than just Liara and Kelly in the first two games (like Tali for my Engineer ), but I feel that we went to the opposite extreme in ME3, at least for FemShep.  ManShep finally gets some same-sex options after two games of forced celibacy or heterosexuality, but FemShep loses a lot of opposite-sex options after being the only one who could go either way in previous games.  Has anyone else noticed this?  What are your thoughts on it?

[Wulfram]

Well, it's basically a continuation of ME1's situation. With added complications because of the Virmire situation and the stories they chose for Thane and Jacob.

[DineBoo]

It's true, and it sucks. Besides the shoddy endings, it kills replays of straight femShep for me.

I don't know what BW was thinking. If they were going to take away Thane and Jacob, they should have at least have James available as an LI. Or some sort of male fling. And if they didn't want to do that, Garrus should have been available at the very least.

Regardless, it is unfair that femShep had options taken away. And just because femShep might have had one the best romances with Garrus, doesn't negate the loss of options or make up for it.

[aedsu]

I agree that they could have made it possible at least for those who didn't romance him in 2 to make Garrus romance-able in 3.

What was originally intended since ME1 shouldn't matter much at this point, it doesn't negate that extra options were added for m!shep and doesn't excuse the lack of variety in femshep's case. I get that Liara, Ashley, and Kaidan were intended to be around through all 3 games as the main LI's but...c'mon.

Garrus is a great LI but it does get old after a while, especially since I killed off Kaidan in my more complete run. Unless I use cheats I'd have to replay half of ME1 over again + ME2 for him.

I would have preferred Joker and James to become LI's in 3, especially Joker what with all that character history. As charming as I find EDI/Joker I still wanted to see him become a LI for either Shepard. Even James as a light romance option, I mean at this point it'd be foolish to hope for a complete one. :/ But seriously...

It kills a lot of the replay for me too in the romance department since I have zero interest in liara or any of the female LI's.And frankly even if I went sheploo I doubt I'd romance anyone. Girls just aren't my cup of tea. I get that it's a popular choice and I appreciate the effort they put into same sex couples. I just feel like the team really forgot about hetero-femshep here.
I wouldn't have been bothered so much by it if it weren't for the fact that they teeeased it in the game itself. Joking with James about all that flirting, getting shot down by Joker in Purgatory. Good lawds, my poor heart.
meanwhile the only bodies willing are female and hey if you're not interested you're just not interested.

I agree that it's unfair and the amount of threads I see pop up weekly on this subject makes this abundantly clear.

[Julia_xo]

I definitely noticed. I romanced Thane in ME2 only to find out he's no longer considered a real option in ME3. It was pretty upsetting. Jacobmancers are in the same boat.

Another thing people have pointed out is the difference in how FemShep and ManShep respond to Ash/Kaidan when accused of cheating. ManShepard can defend his choice to move on but FemShep can't. The FemShep response is to act contrite and say "I'm sorry". There was no option to defend her choice.

Things like this are eyebrow raising on top of being upsetting for players who had their choices taken away and discarded simply because they play as FemShep.

What was the point of giving FemShep a new default face and featuring her in promos if they were just going to cut out in-game content that is specific to her?

[utaker1988]

Yes, my FemSheps have been crying discrimination for awhile now. The ones I have used and abused, Cam, Hope, Faith, and Malificent all of them romanced Thane. One of them romanced Kaidan but got uppity about his needling on Mars so she was rude to him in her responses and then just flat out ignored him in hospital. No visits for him. Well, you can see what happened with that. She couldn't persuade him to back down on the Citadel, so he got killed. Now what is my poor FemShep to do, Kaidan and Thane are both dead. She remained true to her original intentions and just went the whole game mourning Thane.

One kept Kaidan alive but remembered the painful jab Shep makes at Thane about who she is visiting at the hospital, so I gibbed him out and kept Ashley alive. Again.... alone.

The third Shep Virmire'd Kaidan, so she was just screwed without any editing on my part.

The last FemShep, Mali, Virmire'd Kaidan and out of the four would have been the one to find a bed to crawl into for comfort but alas no men for her. She could not have chosen Garrus even if he were up for grabs as she killed him in the SM. Heck, she killed everyone, the only ones left on the Normandy were Thane, Kasumi, and Joker. She would have jumped on Vega.

Now I have a big black whole where my Romance Achievement should be, it remains undone.

[DineBoo]

aedsu wrote...

I agree that they could have made it possible at least for those who didn't romance him in 2 to make Garrus romance-able in 3.

Garrus is a great LI but it does get old after a while, especially since I killed off Kaidan in my more complete run. Unless I use cheats I'd have to replay half of ME1 over again + ME2 for him.

This. I love Garrus to pieces, but I wanted to experience the game in other ways. And maybe I wanted to see Tali and Garrus flirt and hook up in one of my playthroughs.

Allers should have been male or female. Or, just had male reporter for a fling.

To be honest, I can't think of any other guys (besides those already mentioned) for LI/flings. That's sombering about the derth of choices.

It kills a lot of the replay for me too in the romance department since I have zero interest in liara or any of the female LI's.And frankly even if I went sheploo I doubt I'd romance anyone. Girls just aren't my cup of tea. I get that it's a popular choice and I appreciate the effort they put into same sex couples. I just feel like the team really forgot about hetero-femshep here.
I wouldn't have been bothered so much by it if it weren't for the fact that they teeeased it in the game itself. Joking with James about all that flirting, getting shot down by Joker in Purgatory. Good lawds, my poor heart.
meanwhile the only bodies willing are female and hey if you're not interested you're just not interested.

True. I'm refusing to romance Liara out of protest and because I don't want to get ticked off about what could have been for other LIs. And I generally play a straight femShep.

But, even if I was interested in Sam, she doesn't get the content Cortez gets. I mean, you call her up, get some HLA, and that's it? C'mon! Why couldn't we see her going to the Citadel to get a chess board? And from reading the Sam thread, you get less content if you romance her. So it's obvious what BW intented the Sam romance to be.

femShep really got screwed over in choices.

[wildannie]

Yup it seems totally sexist to me... I'm not happy about it one little bit.

There should have been some kind of choice regarding both Thane and Jacob, it should have been possible to romance Garrus without ME2 romance and they might as well have thrown Vega in too (although none of my femsheps would have gone near).

[LaurenShepard-N7]

"Hey guess what we're going to add *new* romance options in ME3! A gay guy (for gay manshep), a lesbian (for straight guys playing as femshep), and a bisexual chick (for straight guys playing as either!) What about Vega, Thane and Jacob you say? Nahh that would have taken up too much disk space. But you can have Garrus! Oh but only if you romanced him in ME2 and he didn't die in the suicide mission. Well there's still Kaidan I guess, oh no he might be dead too. Oh well it's not like girls play videogames anyway." - Bioware (probably)

[SleepIncarnate]

utaker1988 wrote...

Yes, my FemSheps have been crying discrimination for awhile now. The ones I have used and abused, Cam, Hope, Faith, and Malificent all of them romanced Thane. One of them romanced Kaidan but got uppity about his needling on Mars so she was rude to him in her responses and then just flat out ignored him in hospital. No visits for him. Well, you can see what happened with that. She couldn't persuade him to back down on the Citadel, so he got killed. Now what is my poor FemShep to do, Kaidan and Thane are both dead. She remained true to her original intentions and just went the whole game mourning Thane.

This is what I mean.  I mean, I know you can't please everyone (for example, I'm asexual, why can't I just have romance without the sex scenes?), but it's safe to say most of the fan base is straight.  Might be more straight guys who are of the "girl-on-girl is hot" mindset, but that neglects the straight female gamers.  I like that James flirts but backs down when you call him to act on it, he's your stereotypical guy who comes off as cocky and confident on the outside, but get to know him and he's actually a lot more nervous and timid than he normally seems.  Speaking from experience in the military, he's really got that typical grunt personality.  But seriously, just looking at the numbers, there's this huge skewing.  There are 3 males who can be romanced at all in this game, one is gay, the other is straight but only available to import ME2 FemShep who romanced him.  Of the other 8 romance options, all are female, 4 of which are straight, another 3 go both ways, and one is... I dunno, more believable as a fling but not more romantic from what I've seen. 

ManShep has 9 romance options, 2 are gay, with three of the straight ones dependent on imported romance and one of the gay options requiring that character to be alive.  FemShep has 6 romance options, 2 are straight, both of which require the characters to be alive (and one requiring former romance).  Girls are and always have been gamers, and gaming culture hasn't been a "boys only club" for some time, so it just seems a huge blow to common sense for BioWare to hit their demographic like this so bad, ESPECIALLY in light of them realizing just how popular FemShep is as a PC.

DineBoo wrote...

Allers should have been male or female. Or, just had male reporter for a fling.

Allers can go both ways, she flirted with my FemShep last night.  Just doesn't count for Paramour, and from what I understand, doesn't really add anything to the conversations like other romances.  I hear Traynor is much the same, but only for FemShep.

Modifié par SleepIncarnate, 26 avril 2012 - 05:38 .

[SleepIncarnate]

LaurenShepard-N7 wrote...

"Hey guess what we're going to add *new* romance options in ME3! A gay guy (for gay manshep), a lesbian (for straight guys playing as femshep), and a bisexual chick (for straight guys playing as either!) What about Vega, Thane and Jacob you say? Nahh that would have taken up too much disk space. But you can have Garrus! Oh but only if you romanced him in ME2 and he didn't die in the suicide mission. Well there's still Kaidan I guess, oh no he might be dead too. Oh well it's not like girls play videogames anyway." - Bioware (probably)

See, I like that they put in Jacob cheating (it makes him seem more human for once, his creepy smile when you romance him in 2 tuned me off and I ended it, and he's not exactly the most interesting of character to begin with), and we already knew that Thane was going to die, that's one of the first things he tells us in 2.  But why not open some of the other characters in the game as options?  Like Bailey, who is estranged from his family.  Or Kolyat if you did Paragon route in Thane's loyalty mission and got him off the hook?  Heck, gimme Legion even!

[JamesS.]

On top of the lacking choices for straight fem shep they also decided to make less content for the only ones available... I mean Kaidan doesn't have half as many dialogues as Liara, so if they weren't going to add equal options for both sheps they could at least have given us some decent time with the few ones there are there.

[DineBoo]

I know Allers goes both ways, I was just mentioning a place where a male fling could have been inserted. Though I would have preferred Wong on the ship.

It's like BW assumed most players of femShep would have her be a lesbian, and for those who didn't, Garrus would satisfy them.

And even femShep's lesbian LIs get the short end of the stick. Liara is complete, but that's because she can get with maleShep too. Sam doesn't get what Cortez got.

It also amazes me that femShep goes from a wide variety of choices in ME2(more aliens, but still) to what she got in ME3.

And why is it that only femShep's choices could die or cheat on her? Imagine the uproar if Tali moved on, or if Miranda had an unavoidable death.

See,
I like that they put in Jacob cheating (it makes him seem more human
for once, his creepy smile when you romance him in 2 tuned me off and I
ended it, and he's not exactly the most interesting of character to
begin with), and we already knew that Thane was going to die, that's one
of the first things he tells us in 2.

But that isn't fair to those who romance Jacob or Thane. I know Thane was terminal, but they made hints of cure in ME2. And if he had to die, his content should have been expanded.

And what they did to Jacob was assinine. He cheats and knocks up another girl during the time femShep is locked up? Really? Couldn't anyone at BW see how borderline stereotypical that was? Jacob's romance could have been easily corrected in ME3, as with Thane's.

And why is it that femShep has a person who cheats or dies? If they wanted realisim, maybe Tali should have left maleShep for Kal.

Modifié par DineBoo, 26 avril 2012 - 05:52 .

[Julia_xo]

SleepIncarnate wrote...

LaurenShepard-N7 wrote...

"Hey guess what we're going to add *new* romance options in ME3! A gay guy (for gay manshep), a lesbian (for straight guys playing as femshep), and a bisexual chick (for straight guys playing as either!) What about Vega, Thane and Jacob you say? Nahh that would have taken up too much disk space. But you can have Garrus! Oh but only if you romanced him in ME2 and he didn't die in the suicide mission. Well there's still Kaidan I guess, oh no he might be dead too. Oh well it's not like girls play videogames anyway." - Bioware (probably)

See, I like that they put in Jacob cheating (it makes him seem more human for once, his creepy smile when you romance him in 2 tuned me off and I ended it, and he's not exactly the most interesting of character to begin with), and we already knew that Thane was going to die, that's one of the first things he tells us in 2.  But why not open some of the other characters in the game as options?  Like Bailey, who is estranged from his family.  Or Kolyat if you did Paragon route in Thane's loyalty mission and got him off the hook?  Heck, gimme Legion even!

I never romanced Jacob but there are some who did. I really can't understand when people say the cheating is a "good" thing. They wouldn't be singing that tune if it was their LI who cheated and dumped their Shepard out of the blue. Besides, it goes against Jacob's character because he was supposed to be an honest and stable guy. What they did is character assassination.

It makes it worse when you consider that FemShep suffers from failed romances out of her control but ManShep is expempt from that.

Why doesn't ManShep have a LI scripted to die no matter what he does? Why doesn't MShep have a LI cheat and dump him and not be able to do anything about it? It's just messed up.

Also, Thane did have options. He could have gotten a lung transplant (which his lotsb dossier said he was eligible for) or we could have gone on a mission for his cure (which we know the Hanar have been working on for a few years already). BW could have done something with it and given players a choice but they didn't.

[BatmanPWNS]

LaurenShepard-N7 wrote...

"Hey guess what we're going to add *new* romance options in ME3! A gay guy (for gay manshep), a lesbian (for straight guys playing as femshep), and a bisexual chick (for straight guys playing as either!) What about Vega, Thane and Jacob you say? Nahh that would have taken up too much disk space. But you can have Garrus! Oh but only if you romanced him in ME2 and he didn't die in the suicide mission. Well there's still Kaidan I guess, oh no he might be dead too. Oh well it's not like girls play videogames anyway." - Bioware (probably)

This, so much this.

[wildannie]

SleepIncarnate wrote...

LaurenShepard-N7 wrote...

"Hey guess what we're going to add *new* romance options in ME3! A gay guy (for gay manshep), a lesbian (for straight guys playing as femshep), and a bisexual chick (for straight guys playing as either!) What about Vega, Thane and Jacob you say? Nahh that would have taken up too much disk space. But you can have Garrus! Oh but only if you romanced him in ME2 and he didn't die in the suicide mission. Well there's still Kaidan I guess, oh no he might be dead too. Oh well it's not like girls play videogames anyway." - Bioware (probably)

See, I like that they put in Jacob cheating (it makes him seem more human for once, his creepy smile when you romance him in 2 tuned me off and I ended it, and he's not exactly the most interesting of character to begin with), and we already knew that Thane was going to die, that's one of the first things he tells us in 2  But why not open some of the other characters in the game as options?  Like Bailey, who is estranged from his family.  Or Kolyat if you did Paragon route in Thane's loyalty mission and got him off the hook?  Heck, gimme Legion even!

A very good sound reason for Bioware not having these storylines set in stone is that if your invested in the characters it is no fun whatsoever playing the game.   Bioware should be more careful about the kinds of reality they force upon players in an RPG, people want to escape and have fun and for many of us roleplaying the jilted lover or the bereaved feels pretty crappy.  Just because you and the majority didn't like Jacob is no reason for Bioware to shaft those who did.  

Take Thane, there was much forshadowing that his life could be prolonged, just because he was dying, doesn't mean that he had to die roughly one third of the way through the game.    They could easily have used one of the possible treatments that they introduced to allow him to survive through the game for those who romanced him (this could come at a cost).  As it stands he dies no matter what and nobody even mentions it to Shepard and because there is no romance lock or paramour achievement characters are flirting with Shepard in the immediate aftermath.  I don't think having other options would make much of a difference in this case, I don't think many want to roleplay a character that jumps in the sack with a new lover before their previous one is cold.

[mireisen]

This came up in the Garrus forums...

Have you also noticed that all the straight FemShep LIs (Kaidan, Garrus, Thane, Jacob) all have "baggage" or exes, or something of that sort? It was the deciding factor on settling my choice on Garrus because at least he doesn't name that recon scout from the past. Plus he didn't seem all that hung up on her anyways. Kaidan had Rayna, Thane Irikah, and Jacob Miranda.

As opposed to male LIs, who either have ambiguous romantic pasts or none at all. Ppft. So what, women are supposed to love broken men? 

And approval to the previous sentiments. It is very sexist to close options. I am bi, and I am personally annoyed when people do that, "Oh yeaaah bisexual women are the hottest because that means instant threesome yes!" I felt that this was the theme for my FemShep. Esp. with her closed options and Liara and Traynor popping in her room (maybe even without permission) dancing around. Like...the game's telling FemShep to be lesbian or bi or get out.

I know I can't fight that overall misunderstanding of bisexuals but I get irked and offended. Bisexuality does not mean polyamory! It could for some, but I'm monogamous and it's just plain insulting to be read like that, and to be suggested that it is what I want in a LI. I shake my head at this.

Garrus does make up for all of these pitfalls, and I like him a lot, but it would've been nicer for Vega to be an LI, or at least some other choice in ME3 if I was just starting.

Modifié par mireisen, 26 avril 2012 - 06:08 .

[SleepIncarnate]

wildannie wrote...

SleepIncarnate wrote...

LaurenShepard-N7 wrote...

"Hey guess what we're going to add *new* romance options in ME3! A gay guy (for gay manshep), a lesbian (for straight guys playing as femshep), and a bisexual chick (for straight guys playing as either!) What about Vega, Thane and Jacob you say? Nahh that would have taken up too much disk space. But you can have Garrus! Oh but only if you romanced him in ME2 and he didn't die in the suicide mission. Well there's still Kaidan I guess, oh no he might be dead too. Oh well it's not like girls play videogames anyway." - Bioware (probably)

See, I like that they put in Jacob cheating (it makes him seem more human for once, his creepy smile when you romance him in 2 tuned me off and I ended it, and he's not exactly the most interesting of character to begin with), and we already knew that Thane was going to die, that's one of the first things he tells us in 2  But why not open some of the other characters in the game as options?  Like Bailey, who is estranged from his family.  Or Kolyat if you did Paragon route in Thane's loyalty mission and got him off the hook?  Heck, gimme Legion even!

A very good sound reason for Bioware not having these storylines set in stone is that if your invested in the characters it is no fun whatsoever playing the game.   Bioware should be more careful about the kinds of reality they force upon players in an RPG, people want to escape and have fun and for many of us roleplaying the jilted lover or the bereaved feels pretty crappy.  Just because you and the majority didn't like Jacob is no reason for Bioware to shaft those who did.  

Take Thane, there was much forshadowing that his life could be prolonged, just because he was dying, doesn't mean that he had to die roughly one third of the way through the game.    They could easily have used one of the possible treatments that they introduced to allow him to survive through the game for those who romanced him (this could come at a cost).  As it stands he dies no matter what and nobody even mentions it to Shepard and because there is no romance lock or paramour achievement characters are flirting with Shepard in the immediate aftermath.  I don't think having other options would make much of a difference in this case, I don't think many want to roleplay a character that jumps in the sack with a new lover before their previous one is cold.

I'm not saying that having it set in stone one way or another is a good thing.  Like Julia said, there should have been ManShep examples of loss.  And I do love Thane, and I'm seriously considering him as a romance option for my Infiltrator (see first post), but if we complain about Thane's death being unavoidable, we need to go back and complain about how we had to choose someone to die on Virmire, or about Mordin's sacrifice on Tuchanka, or other times when we couldn't save everyone.  And while you raise the question of cures for Thane, that raises the simple question of if he wanted those cures or not.  And even if he had been cured of his illness, would that have prevented him from sacrificing himself?  I think the answer to both is no, which is part of what makes Thane such a compelling character.  The simple fact of the matter is that we knew that not everyone was going to survive this, no matter what we do.  And I think that both Mordin and Thane's sacrifices and deaths were done exceedingly well with a great deal of work put into them.  Just because you want Thane and only Thane doesn't mean that other players don't want someone else.  And that doesn't change the fact that FemShep got seriously screwed over in the romance department in this game, through number, type, and quality of romances.  The game is pandering to the straight male audience, with a bone thrown in for the gay males, but most of the female players are left with nothing for them.

[wildannie]

SleepIncarnate wrote...


I'm not saying that having it set in stone one way or another is a good thing.  Like Julia said, there should have been ManShep examples of loss.  And I do love Thane, and I'm seriously considering him as a romance option for my Infiltrator (see first post), but if we complain about Thane's death being unavoidable, we need to go back and complain about how we had to choose someone to die on Virmire, or about Mordin's sacrifice on Tuchanka, or other times when we couldn't save everyone.  And while you raise the question of cures for Thane, that raises the simple question of if he wanted those cures or not.  And even if he had been cured of his illness, would that have prevented him from sacrificing himself?  I think the answer to both is no, which is part of what makes Thane such a compelling character.  The simple fact of the matter is that we knew that not everyone was going to survive this, no matter what we do.  And I think that both Mordin and Thane's sacrifices and deaths were done exceedingly well with a great deal of work put into them.  Just because you want Thane and only Thane doesn't mean that other players don't want someone else.  And that doesn't change the fact that FemShep got seriously screwed over in the romance department in this game, through number, type, and quality of romances.  The game is pandering to the straight male audience, with a bone thrown in for the gay males, but most of the female players are left with nothing for them.

dealing with bolded points

I might be wrong but I don't think Julia wants maleshep to experience loss, I thought she was just highlighting the uneven/unfair treatment by pointing that out.

No we don't, there was a CHOICE on virmire, that worked fine for me.  Mordin can be saved, it's convoluted but it can be done.  Also, mordin is not a LI so his death would have less of an impact on Shepard, and there's much more effort put in to acknowledging Mordins death than for thane (who gets no acknowledgement from the crew at all).  I have no problem with not being able to save everyone, but I think I all the LI characters should have been savable.

If you knew anything about the Thane romance you'd know that he doesn't want to die, so it doesn't make any sense that he'd have been refusing available treatments.  Why would he sacrifice himself if cured, he's got a son to think of:blink:.

Mordins death was very well done.... Thanes??? LOL....no

I'm all for more choices for everyone, it is you who doesn't seem to want those of us who like Jacob and Thane to have any choice.

[aedsu]

wildannie wrote...

.....

Take Thane, there was much forshadowing that his life could be prolonged, just because he was dying, doesn't mean that he had to die roughly one third of the way through the game.    They could easily have used one of the possible treatments that they introduced to allow him to survive through the game for those who romanced him (this could come at a cost).  As it stands he dies no matter what and nobody even mentions it to Shepard and because there is no romance lock or paramour achievement characters are flirting with Shepard in the immediate aftermath.  I don't think having other options would make much of a difference in this case, I don't think many want to roleplay a character that jumps in the sack with a new lover before their previous one is cold.

THIS. See I could probably get over my Thane problem if they'd just done this. It was painful at first, knowing he'd had a wife in the past, and that he has a teenage son I mean those are ROUGH, I'm barely just over 20 myself and that is a LOT to take into account. You can already tell people are invested by like...having those insecurities over fictional characters. 
But the fact he was denying himself the treatment even though he cares so much for his son? He wants to make things right but at the same time feels he's done too much wrong? Like, I don't get it. and I still feel weird about his baggage not to mention the fact that he does indeed die very early on with NO content. besides one kiss. 

And the fact no one mentions his death at all is just lousy. I understand time constraints and admire the thought that at least they put him in when they could have cut him out entirely and replaced the character with a brief email, or even made him dead right off the bat. 
yet it was handled sooo poorly. 


I saw someone mention something about Traynor's romance and I won't get started o nthat. My opinion on the matter is that her arc was lazy. A hot shower scene no matter which characters are present isn't enough to make up for that level of laziness and possible bias. \\: 

[Julia_xo]

SleepIncarnate wrote...
I'm not saying that having it set in stone one way or another is a good thing.  Like Julia said, there should have been ManShep examples of loss.  And I do love Thane, and I'm seriously considering him as a romance option for my Infiltrator (see first post),

The content is virtually the same in ME3 whether Thane is romanced or not. He's not even considered an actual romance.

but if we complain about Thane's death being unavoidable, we need to go back and complain about how we had to choose someone to die on Virmire, or about Mordin's sacrifice on Tuchanka, or other times when we couldn't save everyone.  And while you raise the question of cures for Thane, that raises the simple question of if he wanted those cures or not.  And even if he had been cured of his illness, would that have prevented him from sacrificing himself?  I think the answer to both is no, which is part of what makes Thane such a compelling character.  The simple fact of the matter is that we knew that not everyone was going to survive this, no matter what we do.  And I think that both Mordin and Thane's sacrifices and deaths were done exceedingly well with a great deal of work put into them.  Just because you want Thane and only Thane doesn't mean that other players don't want someone else.  And that doesn't change the fact that FemShep got seriously screwed over in the romance department in this game, through number, type, and quality of romances.  The game is pandering to the straight male audience, with a bone thrown in for the gay males, but most of the female players are left with nothing for them.

The key difference is that on Virmire you can choose who survives. You're not forced to watch your LI die.

Even with Mordin, you realize you CAN keep him alive, right?

In those scenarios there are choices. You can play one way and replay later and make different choices, if you want. Example: In one playthrough I can keep Ash alive and have Mordin die in ME3. In another playthrough I can keep Kaidan alive and have Mordin live in ME3.

With Thane there is no choice. He ends up dead in every ME3 playthrough whether you want him to or not.

And if you romance Thane, it's especially evident that he does want to live. He is reconciled with his son and has found love again which has him dreading his death. His character undergoes a change that ME3 completely ignores. They just discarded his character development and gave him an "I'm at peace with my impending death" spiel to suit their decision to kill him off without player input. More character assassination courtesy of BioWare.

I don't think it was right that they discarded already established relationships for FemShep, while ManShep got to keep all his choices.

[Hadeedak]

My problem with Thane's death MOSTLY revolves around timing and aftermath. Yeah, there should have been more there while he was alive. But damnit, if he's going to die, a Thane with whom the romance was continued SHOULD give an achievement. Otherwise, your crew starts flirting IMMEDIATELY after his death.

And someone should have noticed and said something to Shepard.

I still almost consider him an option, even if the game doubts me. Unlike Jacob.

[utaker1988]

Someone above mentioned FemShep and "broken" men. Yeah, I noticed that too. They must think that women like the old "fix-er up-per" men. I'm sorry but I really don't want a project when I find a man, I'd much rather have one that doesn't need more care than my children. Nor do I want to think of them as that old '67 Mustang I have sitting around that still needs to be rebuilt. No thank you, I'm not wired that way.

Take Thane, I didn't romance the guy because he was broken. Sorry BioWare that wasn't why I chose him. He was interesting, among other things but I will keep my mind clean as to not cause fainting, and well he knew what love was. He knew the value of it, he had it and he had lost it in such a way that he closed himself off for years. Knowing that and knowing my Shep does not like to be played with or dicked around, I knew that if he said he cared for her or even loved her that he meant it. But apparently BioWare forgot that love was involved as anyone who romanced Thane knows darn well he wasn't a fling. If that was their intention, then I want to beat them with a wet noodle for being so cruel to Thane. But then again, they did give FemShep the option to dump Thane while he's in the hospital going through the last stage of his disease. Then after you dump him the "Private Time" option is still available, he will reject you but still...it's there. FFS!!!! Sadistic. Yeah, I no longer want to use a wet noodle, I'd rather beat someone with my shoe for being that mean.

[DineBoo]

Regarding the VS situation, one should not be required to have a crystal ball in order to know that since future options could die/cheat on you, you should really keep Kaidan alive.

Thane's situation was awful. He should have lived further into the game if he was going to die, and at least give the achievement. But they could have the crew mourn him properly. I didn't romance him, but immediatly getting hit on by Sam and Allers? Not having Garrus talk about Thane at the memorial wall even though his name is right there? Seriously?

And what they did to Jacob was horrible and mean to the fans that stuck by him, even though others didn't like him.

All LIs should have had plot armor, or at the very least make it available to save their life like they did with Miranda.

Going back to straight femShep. Since they took options away, the very least they could do was expand Kaidan's and Garrus' content to make up for it. At the minimum.

Modifié par DineBoo, 26 avril 2012 - 07:30 .

[Emeraldfern]

Julia_xo wrote...

I definitely noticed. I romanced Thane in ME2 only to find out he's no longer considered a real option in ME3. It was pretty upsetting. Jacobmancers are in the same boat.

Another thing people have pointed out is the difference in how FemShep and ManShep respond to Ash/Kaidan when accused of cheating. ManShepard can defend his choice to move on but FemShep can't. The FemShep response is to act contrite and say "I'm sorry". There was no option to defend her choice.

Things like this are eyebrow raising on top of being upsetting for players who had their choices taken away and discarded simply because they play as FemShep.

What was the point of giving FemShep a new default face and featuring her in promos if they were just going to cut out in-game content that is specific to her?

I Agree 100% on all of these points.

On the subject of Thane and Jacob, nearly everything about their role in ME3 was illogical if they were romanced:

Thane leaps headstraight into premature death despite the fact that he has reasons to live.
And for some reason the only thing on his mind is that he is dying, despite saying "Any (time) I have is yours to take"
Err...is Kepral's Syndrome the only thing on your mind Thane?

Jacob cheats on Shepard despite the fact that he wanted to be a "better man" than his dad. Not to mention he knocks someone up after being involved with someone for only 6 months.

The scenarios that befall both of these characters are from a non-romanced perspective ok.

But when romanced?

Err..No.

Instead it reeks of rushed writing.
It's as if Bioware simply thought that straight female gamers were not a big enough demography to give them as equal options as straight male gamers.
And that makes me sad. Espicially given their past history with DAO and DA2 were the options (albeit not as numerous) were equal.

/Sorry if this came out as too much of a rant. I'm just so damn bitter at ME3 that it's hard to keep my anger in check.

Modifié par Emeraldfern, 26 avril 2012 - 07:36 .