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[Wulfram]

Hadeedak wrote...

My problem with Thane's death MOSTLY revolves around timing and aftermath. Yeah, there should have been more there while he was alive. But damnit, if he's going to die, a Thane with whom the romance was continued SHOULD give an achievement. Otherwise, your crew starts flirting IMMEDIATELY after his death.

I understand the issue with the immediate flirting, but it would be a little problematic to automatically cut off all romances, too.  Particularly if you had an ME1 romance that you might want to get back to.

Modifié par Wulfram, 26 avril 2012 - 07:38 .

[SleepIncarnate]

Ok, this thread has gotten derailed into complaining about the loss of Thane. My opinions on the matter aside (and he did reject treatment), this thread is about the fact that FemShep got screwed in the romance department period. 1/3 less options from ManShep, only 2 straight options that can be completely unavailable due to decisions in previous games, "soft" romance (read: little to no quality romance) with most of those who are left (Traynor, Allers, Kelly), and the only option left is both alien and same-sex, leaving out the vast majority of female players who are straight if they either didn't save Kaidan or didn't romance Garrus in ME2.

Yes they could've done more with Thane for those who romanced him. But they also could have allowed Garrus to be romanced in this game for those who didn't or couldn't (i.e. new character) romance him in the last game. They could have given FemShep an equal amount of romantic options compared to ManShep. They could have put some work into the ones that are there. They could have consulted actual lesbian and bisexual women to help with writing the same sex relationships. There is a lot that could have been done better, but no matter how you look at it, FemShep got far FAR less than ManShep.

Seeing as how BioWare is one of the more progressive companies with some of the more progressive games (let's be honest, gay characters are rare, those who aren't walking stereotypes are even rarer, BW tends to do a decent job, though they make mistakes like Anders), this just comes across as laziness on their parts, or outright not caring. Hell, the whole background conversation in the second act between the human soldier and the Asari clerk in the Embassies about how the human's parents had disowned her because of her relationship with an Asari can be viewed as addressing either homophobia or xenophobia, something you would rarely find in other games. So with a company this progressive, why have they screwed over the female main character so badly?

Modifié par SleepIncarnate, 26 avril 2012 - 07:51 .

[utaker1988]

After reading what I've read in regards to this game, I'm going to go with the simple fact that they forgot. They forgot that not everyone played ME1 (PS3 owners are a great example), that not everyone is a male gamer, that not everyone will automatically make their straight character bi, and they forgot about FemShep. Once they put her in marketing and the choice to flip your game cover around, they just forgot about her. Does it make it right? No, it doesn't not by a long shot. I'm not happy, I've spent just as much time on this series (if not more) than many men have. I'm sure lots of us women have and to just be forgotten about is disgusting.

I don't think we were screwed over on purpose, that would require some thought on their end. It is worse than that, we were forgotten.

That's just my opinion though, no need to go spreading it around.

[wildannie]

SleepIncarnate wrote...

Ok, this thread has gotten derailed into complaining about the loss of Thane. My opinions on the matter aside (and he did reject treatment), this thread is about the fact that FemShep got screwed in the romance department period. 1/3 less options from ManShep, only 2 straight options that can be completely unavailable due to decisions in previous games, "soft" romance (read: little to no quality romance) with most of those who are left (Traynor, Allers, Kelly), and the only option left is both alien and same-sex, leaving out the vast majority of female players who either didn't save Kaidan or didn't romance Garrus in ME2.

Yes they could've done more with Thane for those who romanced him. But they also could have allowed Garrus to be romanced in this game for those who didn't or couldn't (i.e. new character) romance him in the last game. They could have given FemShep an equal amount of romantic options compared to ManShep. They could have put some work into the ones that are there. They could have consulted actual lesbian and bisexual women to help with writing the same sex relationships. There is a lot that could have been done better, but no matter how you look at it, FemShep got far FAR less than ManShep.

Seeing as how BioWare is one of the more progressive companies with some of the more progressive games (let's be honest, gay characters are rare, those who aren't walking stereotypes are even rarer, BW tends to do a decent job, though they make mistakes like Anders). Hell, the whole background conversation in the second act between the human soldier and the Asari clerk about how the human's parents had disowned her because of her relationship with an Asari can be viewed as addressing either homophobia or xenophobia. So with a company this progressive, why have they screwed over the female main character so badly?

He rejected treatment before saving his son and getting together with shepard, shepard woke him up his outlook changed.
Everyone knows femshep got shafted, nobody's disagreeing with that. Why did they do it?? maybe they don't have the same artistic freedom as they did before, maybe they don't care.

[Julia_xo]

Wulfram wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

My problem with Thane's death MOSTLY revolves around timing and aftermath. Yeah, there should have been more there while he was alive. But damnit, if he's going to die, a Thane with whom the romance was continued SHOULD give an achievement. Otherwise, your crew starts flirting IMMEDIATELY after his death.

I understand the issue with the immediate flirting, but it would be a little problematic to automatically cut off all romances, too.  Particularly if you had an ME1 romance that you might want to get back to.

If someone knows they want to go with a different option they should avoid getting locked in. The option to break things off with Thane is there for those who want it.

wildannie wrote...

SleepIncarnate wrote...

Ok, this thread has gotten derailed into complaining about the loss of Thane. My opinions on the matter aside (and he did reject treatment), this thread is about the fact that FemShep got screwed in the romance department period. 1/3 less options from ManShep, only 2 straight options that can be completely unavailable due to decisions in previous games, "soft" romance (read: little to no quality romance) with most of those who are left (Traynor, Allers, Kelly), and the only option left is both alien and same-sex, leaving out the vast majority of female players who either didn't save Kaidan or didn't romance Garrus in ME2.

Yes they could've done more with Thane for those who romanced him. But they also could have allowed Garrus to be romanced in this game for those who didn't or couldn't (i.e. new character) romance him in the last game. They could have given FemShep an equal amount of romantic options compared to ManShep. They could have put some work into the ones that are there. They could have consulted actual lesbian and bisexual women to help with writing the same sex relationships. There is a lot that could have been done better, but no matter how you look at it, FemShep got far FAR less than ManShep.

Seeing as how BioWare is one of the more progressive companies with some of the more progressive games (let's be honest, gay characters are rare, those who aren't walking stereotypes are even rarer, BW tends to do a decent job, though they make mistakes like Anders). Hell, the whole background conversation in the second act between the human soldier and the Asari clerk about how the human's parents had disowned her because of her relationship with an Asari can be viewed as addressing either homophobia or xenophobia. So with a company this progressive, why have they screwed over the female main character so badly?

He rejected treatment before saving his son and getting together with shepard, shepard woke him up his outlook changed.
Everyone knows femshep got shafted, nobody's disagreeing with that. Why did they do it?? maybe they don't have the same artistic freedom as they did before, maybe they don't care.

Them not caring sounds about right. Maybe it's even due to their statistics that MShep is played more than FemShep.

That's still a lousy reason to screw over a section of your fanbase. Especially since things had been fairly equal in past games. Is this going to become the new norm for them? Less options for their female PCs?

Modifié par Julia_xo, 26 avril 2012 - 08:24 .

[Hadeedak]

Wulfram wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

My problem with Thane's death MOSTLY revolves around timing and aftermath. Yeah, there should have been more there while he was alive. But damnit, if he's going to die, a Thane with whom the romance was continued SHOULD give an achievement. Otherwise, your crew starts flirting IMMEDIATELY after his death.

I understand the issue with the immediate flirting, but it would be a little problematic to automatically cut off all romances, too.  Particularly if you had an ME1 romance that you might want to get back to.

Well, it does give you an option to pick things up with Thane or call it off in the hospital. Which... Should matter. If you choose to make out with him, one ASSUMES you want your Shepard to continue the romance.

The thing about the Thane thing (wheee, I'm verbose today) is that losing two love interests to EPIC fumbles really kicked FemShep in the quad so far as that goes. Your choice of 2 men, both of whom may be dead, is silly. Thane has most of the elements in place, but they choke in the homestretch. Jacob. Well. Jacob.

And Joker and Vega dangle JUST out of reach, teasing us.

Modifié par Hadeedak, 26 avril 2012 - 08:24 .

[aedsu]

Maybe their hands were tied, wanting to do more but didn't have the resources?

Or it's possible that they weren't given the green light to do more?

I would have loved to see them work with what they already had. Like we've said by making Garrus romance-able from the start, taking into account PS3 players not having ME1 to go by, turning featured male and female NPC's into LI's like idk, aside from joker, Donnelly if he survived or Tali for femshep.
To do more with the characters they had instead of pooling resources into emotionless, instantly forgettable messes like Sam and Allers. :/

Bah. D:< It's just lazy.

It certainly doesn't endear bioware to me to see this half of the playerbase's wishes ignored. You can't say that they've outright ignored female players with interests in either gender, with all the abuse there is, so how would you describe that XD.

For example how many female NPC's turn down M!shep? And like it was mentioned, how many Female LI's have specific, named romantic baggage, and how many are 'broken'?

Femsheps were shafted in more ways than one.

So many enraged feels. Augh.

[Demoiselle]

YES. This, so much. There was an equal amount of gender romances in ME2 BECAUSE the balance of genders in ME1 was unbalanced. It was a step UP. Only having the ME1 romance options again already meant less choice for straight FemShep.

And if you're going to go back to the forumla of the new romances being one male and two female it's REALLY not a good idea to automaticlly end the relationships of 2/3 of FemSheps previous male LIs.

Even if it 'did make sense for Thane to die' (and as someone who never romanced him this was my reaction before I found out how unfairly balanced the LIs were overall) wouldn't this be more reason NOT to end the romance with Jacob, if another male LI HAS to die?!

I would have loved for someone to post a fake leak where Tali automaticlly cheated on MShep with Reeger. If the Talimancers knew our pain, we'd have a freakin' army XD

[DineBoo]

It really is disheartening to go from more choices to back to where we were in ME1.

If an LI was going to die or cheat, then they should have had an LI ready to replace it. Especially if you killed off Kaidan and they didn't have Garrus.

Or just have simple things like not having Thane die (or die extremly later on tin the game) and not have Jacob cheat. Can't do that? Make Garrus available. Have a new ME3 character get that adorkable akwardness that was in ME2 and have imports get expanded content. Kaidan also get expanded content to makeup for the loss of LIs. Have James become available, or have some important NPCs become romanceable, and it wouldn't be so bad.

But I don't know what's worse: Thinking BW forgot about straight female players, BW thinking people play femShep as lesbian and to heck with the choices already given, or they did just didn't care about their female fanbase. My faith in BW has been shaken, and now they are no longer a Day 1 purchase. Sad.

[SleepIncarnate]

DineBoo wrote...

It really is disheartening to go from more choices to back to where we were in ME1.

If an LI was going to die or cheat, then they should have had an LI ready to replace it. Especially if you killed off Kaidan and they didn't have Garrus.

Or just have simple things like not having Thane die (or die extremly later on tin the game) and not have Jacob cheat. Can't do that? Make Garrus available. Have a new ME3 character get that adorkable akwardness that was in ME2 and have imports get expanded content. Kaidan also get expanded content to makeup for the loss of LIs. Have James become available, or have some important NPCs become romanceable, and it wouldn't be so bad.

But I don't know what's worse: Thinking BW forgot about straight female players, BW thinking people play femShep as lesbian and to heck with the choices already given, or they did just didn't care about their female fanbase. My faith in BW has been shaken, and now they are no longer a Day 1 purchase. Sad.

It's not just the straight female fanbase that got hosed.  Look at the difference between Cortez and Traynor.  Hell, he's more felshed out of a character even to females who can't date him than Traynor is, and her "romance" starts out ok, playful flirting, subtle admission of interest, then BOOM, shower together.  It's like a bad porno written and directed by a man who thinks he knows what lesbians are like.  The ENTIRE female fanbase got hosed on this, except that small percentage who favor Garrus (and don't get me wrong, I love his romance from ME2, but I'd still prefer a woman), or Liara, who is written for ManShep and ported over exactly or mostly the same.

[Numara]

or BW run out of ideas... just see the ending again...

I have 1 femShep with Kaidan and another with Garrus, and as much as I love Thane character too I cant start a romance with him because Shep has enough with saving the galaxy to deal with the pain of losing her LI...
About Jacob, well I never liked him as a LI, but for those who like him... Im srry...

And 1 question BW: if u were willing to "remove Thane and Jacob romance", why dont make Vega avaliable Only for FemSheps? (nothing against MaleShep but he has enough LIs already:P)
I mean he is even a squadmate, i dont think it would be that complicated make 2 more scenes and change some dialogues... The character and his arc is already there.....

Anyways... fix 1st the ending (If you can...) and lets discuss later about fixing the romances...(for free ofc... and if you can and isnt against your artistic vision or.... whatever...)

[SleepIncarnate]

Demoiselle wrote...

Even if it 'did make sense for Thane to die' (and as someone who never romanced him this was my reaction before I found out how unfairly balanced the LIs were overall) wouldn't this be more reason NOT to end the romance with Jacob, if another male LI HAS to die?!

Yes, I agree.  While I feel that either one can be justified and explained easily (because while Jacob tries to be a good man and better than his father, he doesn't always succeed and this is one such example, his attempt to kill his father at the end of his loyalty mission is another example), having both happen is a double whamy.  Every ManShep romance from the previous games who survived returns, as well as a couple new ones that count completely, like Cortez and Kaidan.  FemShep has one new one that counts for the achievement, and none of the new ones (and even some of the returning ones) aren't worth anything.

[JamieCOTC]

Definition of dropped the ball: Thane romance in Mass Effect 3 and also romances for single straight femshep in ME3. 

[DirtySHISN0]

I play as femshep mainly because i don't like Male shepards voice. So it made sense to me that i could still choose the female love interests i liked, not to see lesbian scenes, but to have the choices i would've made as male shep. Maybe bioware assumed their target audience was largely male. Maybe.

[Demoiselle]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

I play as femshep mainly because i don't like Male shepards voice. So it made sense to me that i could still choose the female love interests i liked, not to see lesbian scenes, but to have the choices i would've made as male shep. Maybe bioware assumed their target audience was largely male. Maybe.

The target audience in general? Yes, male for sure - it's just the sensible thing for a game like this to focus on. The target audience for FemSheps story on the other hand? No.

[DirtySHISN0]

I1 Trust wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Maybe bioware assumed their target audience was largely male. Maybe.

Only 18% of ME players play female Shepard.

Disclaimer - maybe

[Tup3x]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Definition of dropped the ball: Thane romance in Mass Effect 3 and also romances for single straight femshep in ME3. 

This.

[Wulfram]

SleepIncarnate wrote...


It's not just the straight female fanbase that got hosed.  Look at the difference between Cortez and Traynor.  Hell, he's more felshed out of a character even to females who can't date him than Traynor is, and her "romance" starts out ok, playful flirting, subtle admission of interest, then BOOM, shower together.  It's like a bad porno written and directed by a man who thinks he knows what lesbians are like.  The ENTIRE female fanbase got hosed on this, except that small percentage who favor Garrus (and don't get me wrong, I love his romance from ME2, but I'd still prefer a woman), or Liara, who is written for ManShep and ported over exactly or mostly the same.

Eh, I'm mostly talking from a non-romance perspective, and this will probably annoy some people, but:
Cortez is utterly boring and bland while Traynor is fun, interesting and develops over the course of the game.

[DirtySHISN0]

Demoiselle wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

I play as femshep mainly because i don't like Male shepards voice. So it made sense to me that i could still choose the female love interests i liked, not to see lesbian scenes, but to have the choices i would've made as male shep. Maybe bioware assumed their target audience was largely male. Maybe.

The target audience in general? Yes, male for sure - it's just the sensible thing for a game like this to focus on. The target audience for FemSheps story on the other hand? No.

If the target audience is male overall that means even though only a small percentage play as femshep its still enough for femshep to be preferenced for male players over female.

Like op said it isnt a 50/50 split of straight/gay relationships for both shepards, femshep favors female relationships.

[Agent_Dark_]

I don't get why people are so up in arms over Jacob 'cheating' on Shep. It's not like they were married or anything... I also think Thane's death was probably the most touching in the game, even more so than say Mordin's, and I wouldn't want that to be changed. If you want 'equality' in the male/female romances, I think Miranda should have had a 'forced' death (well, as 'forced' as Mordin's was) where she dies taking out her father to save her sister or something.

Besides, Jacob ends up with Space Lady!Hawke, and that's ok in my books.

[Demoiselle]

Wulfram wrote...

SleepIncarnate wrote...


It's not just the straight female fanbase that got hosed.  Look at the difference between Cortez and Traynor.  Hell, he's more felshed out of a character even to females who can't date him than Traynor is, and her "romance" starts out ok, playful flirting, subtle admission of interest, then BOOM, shower together.  It's like a bad porno written and directed by a man who thinks he knows what lesbians are like.  The ENTIRE female fanbase got hosed on this, except that small percentage who favor Garrus (and don't get me wrong, I love his romance from ME2, but I'd still prefer a woman), or Liara, who is written for ManShep and ported over exactly or mostly the same.

Eh, I'm mostly talking from a non-romance perspective, and this will probably annoy some people, but:
Cortez is utterly boring and bland while Traynor is fun, interesting and develops over the course of the game.

As a charachter, yeah I thought Traynor was better than Cortez because Adorkable triumps over Angst. And she was freaking adorkable. But as a romance... helping Cortez get over his husband was a good runup to a romance. Traynors shower scene just felt like 'one-more-girl-on-girl-scene-for-the-straight-male'.

...and now I feel bad and have to create my new FemShep to shower with Traynor. Becaause seriously. ADORKABLE.

[Hadeedak]

Agent_Dark_ wrote...

I don't get why people are so up in arms over Jacob 'cheating' on Shep. It's not like they were married or anything... I also think Thane's death was probably the most touching in the game, even more so than say Mordin's, and I wouldn't want that to be changed. If you want 'equality' in the male/female romances, I think Miranda should have had a 'forced' death (well, as 'forced' as Mordin's was) where she dies taking out her father to save her sister or something.

Besides, Jacob ends up with Space Lady!Hawke, and that's ok in my books.

Thane's would have been a lot more touching if anyone noticed it happened afterwards. He's the only ME2 squaddy who never gets a crew mention. At all.

It's not precisely that Thane dies and Jacob cheats; it's that both these things happen to femShep, leaving her with TWO straight options. Comparitively, she can hook up with Traynor, Allers, Kelly, and Liara. For heaven's sake...

Though the Garrusmance is the best in the game, in my opinion, a little variety would be nice.

[DineBoo]

And just because Garrus' romance may be the best in the game, doesn't negate the loss of other possible straight LIs.

And most people are irritated that death of an LI and a cheating LI ONLY happen to femShep. Plus there are no other options to make up for that loss if you killed off Kaidan.

Why does this happen only to femShep? This would be like Miranda forcibly dieing during her mission, and Jack runs off with another bad boy biotic. And then when Miranda dies, you get Kaidan and Cortez after you.

Like what was said earlier, if they didn't want to deal with loss of two LIs, then Kaidan's and Garrus content should have been expanded to Liara's level to make up for the loss. And Garrus immediately becomes available for a fresh ME3 femShep. It doesn't make things even, but a bit easier to swallow.

[JamesS.]

DineBoo wrote...

And just because Garrus' romance may be the best in the game, doesn't negate the loss of other possible straight LIs.

And most people are irritated that death of an LI and a cheating LI ONLY happen to femShep. Plus there are no other options to make up for that loss if you killed off Kaidan.

Why does this happen only to femShep? This would be like Miranda forcibly dieing during her mission, and Jack runs off with another bad boy biotic. And then when Miranda dies, you get Kaidan and Cortez after you.

Like what was said earlier, if they didn't want to deal with loss of two LIs, then Kaidan's and Garrus content should have been expanded to Liara's level to make up for the loss. And Garrus immediately becomes available for a fresh ME3 femShep. It doesn't make things even, but a bit easier to swallow.

Exactly, this.is what I have been saying also for so many times. If the options are going to be in favor of male shep mostly, then at least make the few fem shep romances at Liara level. I think Garrus got a bit more than Kaidan but Kaidan got like only half the dialogues as what Liara got, I don't even think that Garrus got as much as Liara. So even though we "at least" got 2 straight options their content was very limited, how can that not be on purpose? Bioware can't make so MANY mistakes. And I am sorry Bioware but Liara LOOKS like a woman, SOUNDS like a woman, she IS a woman!