112 réponses à ce sujet

[Yuqi]

I1 Trust wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Maybe bioware assumed their target audience was largely male. Maybe.

Only 18% of ME players play female Shepard.

 Gaming differs from region to region. In Au the gaming market is pretty much split even between male and female, in Japan it's also a pretty even split. I have heard stories of female gamers pickign up ME3 because it had a female on the front, men too. If more people knew they could play as a female, then what do you think they're gonna do? Buy the game purely because it's different and a breath of fresh air. ME won't be rembered for it's male lead, or even it's story, it will be rembered for Fshep.

Dragon Age is better and  even with the LI, but Ithink they have more female writers?  But Yes I agree the straight fhseps got screwed over. is it sexisim? That's debatable. Because until the recent generation, games wern't really maarketed to females, but  the D.S era has changed that.

Bioware should've given fshep james, and been done with it.

[JamesS.]

I think it feels like James was intended to be a Li because the way he flirts and all was like he was intended to be, so maybe they ran out of time and money and decided not to finish it since he was so hated before me3 got out.

[aedsu]

SergeantSnookie wrote...

Making Joker and James FemShep-only romances would be the perfect remedy to this situation.

I would like this, if they were handled correctly. u wu Although it seems unjust to make them fshep only, I would still REALLY love a Jokermance. James too, he seems like such a sweetie-pie under that grunt facade. And you get a cool nickname to boot, would be awesome if you could give him a nickname too. 

The groundwork is already there, bioware provided it. And if people want to get all pissy over EDI being Joker's 'one true love forever and ever no buts about it' then they can just not romance him simple as that. :/ 

I must have gotten a bit worked up over this again last night because I had a dream about it all. It makes me wonder, is Bioware even listening to us on this one or are we just preaching to the choir here. :Y
Seems we all agree but, I mean. What do? 

[78stonewobble]

Well even though I only play mshep it did seem weird to take away both Thane and Jacob.

Sure if you wanna do a death scene Thane was kind of the obvious choice (allready dying) but maybe they should have gone with Miranda moving on instead?

[SleepIncarnate]

Enigma1322 wrote...

DineBoo wrote...

And just because Garrus' romance may be the best in the game, doesn't negate the loss of other possible straight LIs.

And most people are irritated that death of an LI and a cheating LI ONLY happen to femShep. Plus there are no other options to make up for that loss if you killed off Kaidan.

Why does this happen only to femShep? This would be like Miranda forcibly dieing during her mission, and Jack runs off with another bad boy biotic. And then when Miranda dies, you get Kaidan and Cortez after you.

Like what was said earlier, if they didn't want to deal with loss of two LIs, then Kaidan's and Garrus content should have been expanded to Liara's level to make up for the loss. And Garrus immediately becomes available for a fresh ME3 femShep. It doesn't make things even, but a bit easier to swallow.

Exactly, this.is what I have been saying also for so many times. If the options are going to be in favor of male shep mostly, then at least make the few fem shep romances at Liara level. I think Garrus got a bit more than Kaidan but Kaidan got like only half the dialogues as what Liara got, I don't even think that Garrus got as much as Liara. So even though we "at least" got 2 straight options their content was very limited, how can that not be on purpose? Bioware can't make so MANY mistakes. And I am sorry Bioware but Liara LOOKS like a woman, SOUNDS like a woman, she IS a woman!

 
Discount lesbians are still lesbians.  Or I guess in this case, discount bisexuals.  And this is what I was saying too.  Way too many mistakes for this to be a complete accident.  Hell, make Javik a romance option, keep with the trend of FemShep having more alien lovers, though opening up some existing characters, like James or Engineer Adams (or Dr Chakwas) would be good too.  If you're going to go off the assumption that women are more likely to be bisexual than men, and that the men who play will want lesbian romances, at least give some more variety (and quality) of male romances for FemShep.  There are 11 total potential romances in this game, only 3 of which are male.  Yes, I know, traditionally FemShep has had fewer straight options than ManShep (2-1 in ME1, 4/5-3 in ME2) but this is just going too far.

[JamesS.]

Also I dont know if anyone noticed this but if you compare the shep-kaidan love scene with shep-liara scene, there was definitely a difference, besides liara being the only one naked, the kiss between shep-liara was made absolutely perfect and looked like real lips and real kiss while the one between shep-kaidan looked "fake" and not so well made, it was clear that they thought more of the male romances and clearly spent a lot more time of making them perfect compaired to the female romances.

Modifié par Enigma1322, 27 avril 2012 - 01:38 .

[Lucky Thirteen]

It's like they decided ME3 romances for femShep should be about ****-blocking and teasing.

1. Vega should have been a romance. With the way he flirts, it's so bizarre that femShep can't pursue it. On the flip side, it's weird that she can't stop it. It's sexual harassment if you're not interested, the Normandy is a military ship and she's the commanding officer. She should be able to kick his ass over it. Basically, if he's not a romance option, he shouldn't be making comments on how well she fills out a uniform. Wtf? When has that ever been okay to casually happen in the military?

2. Joker should have been a romance, fans have been begging for him since ME1. Having the opprotunity to hit on him, then get shot down because he thinks it's weird and inappropriate is such a slap in the face when he's trying to get with a robot. As if that's not rebelling against all kinds of social norms and rules. Then of course, said robot's body beat the snot out of the VS and could probably crush Joker into dust if it hugged him wrong. If you're not going to allow Joker be a romance, don't screw with the fans like that.

3. Thane should and could have been allowed more stuff before dying. The VS has 3-4 conversations that you can visit them with in that hospital, and all Thane has is the one. So Shepard ends up passing Thane by at least three times, while he's sitting all alone in his chair with nothing to talk about but the fact he's dying. You can even get VS a gift while they are in the hospital, but not Thane. What the crap, he's no longer a romance and no longer even your friend. He's a worthless NPC that just exists to die. Also, what about going on a little dinner date for a romance femShep? A picture for her desk? There is no time between meeting him and his death, while doing all the tons of fetch quests and talking to everyone from the Normandy on the Citadel? Absolutely no time at all? Really? You can stretch out quests and missions for at least 7 hours before you finish Tuchanka and cure the genophage.

Lulz, cure the genophage, forget your boyfriend is dying from Kepral's.

4. With Jacob, they should have never put the baby thing in and should have given femShep the chance to win him back. The idea of a character attempting to move on/cheating on Shepard, creating a love triangle situation that Shepard is fighting against someone for someone, makes for a great story. Unfortunately, Bioware didn't think about this and just wanted to find a way to make it impossible to romance Jacob. With all the negative crap the majority of fans have given Jacob, there are those that love Jacob and this is such a f*** you to those fans. They could have turned this all around and made him one of the best romances giving a f*** you to all the fans that crapped all over Jacob.


There, four guys that could have easily been fixed for more satisfying romance options for femShep. But nope. Adding Diana Allers was far more important than even fixing one of these characters that do far more important things or have existed in the series longer.

Good job Bioware for going back a whole decade in game audience thinking and assuming that everyone playing femShep are a bunch of guys that want to see a hot chick get it on with a hot chick.

[Mims]

I looove Garrus as a romance option, and was never planning on doing much else, but it still pisses me off to think that a lot of other Femsheps got ignored. Its just...why? They even have a gloriously rendered Vega chest model.

Whats worse, is that I feel like media in general has gotten into this TEAM JACOB VS TEAM EDWARD mentality. The majority of straight female fans probably were either shipping Garrus or Kaidan, so why bother with any others? Women just need two 'good' guys to fight over. But guys need a harem of choices!

Modifié par Mims, 27 avril 2012 - 02:15 .

[JamesS.]

They could still fix some of the issues like adding James as an Li and adding more dialogues for the rest but I am positive that they will never do it, I don't think they care enough.

[SleepIncarnate]

It's not just the romance stuff they dropped the ball on either. Day 1 DLC (which gives the perception of just trying to get more money for stuff that should've been in the game to begin with), the ending debacle, the bugs (like Aequitas always showing on the Galaxy map like there's a mission there when there never is one), the mistreatment of former squadmates (most get a handful of lines and that's it)... There are so many issues with this game. Don't get me wrong, it's still my favorite so far of the three (though I'm still only about halfway through the game on my first playthrough), but if they had put the effort into it that they did with the others, it could have been so much better.

[syllogi]

Mims wrote...

I looove Garrus as a romance option, and was never planning on doing much else, but it still pisses me off to think that a lot of other Femsheps got ignored. Its just...why? They even have a gloriously rendered Vega chest model.

Whats worse, is that I feel like media in general has gotten into this TEAM JACOB VS TEAM EDWARD mentality. The majority of straight female fans probably were either shipping Garrus or Kaidan, so why bother with any others? Women just need two 'good' guys to fight over. But guys need a harem of choices!

Yep.  Just having at least two popular romance options that are treated relatively well doesn't negate how lousy the rest of the straight female Shepard romances were treated.

I often think about what the devs told Joker fans before the game came out.  That they shouldn't worry, that they would enjoy Joker's role...even when they knew that the majority of fans in his support thread wanted to romance him with their Shepard, and were against Joker/EDI for a multitude of reasons.  Then the game came out, and everything the devs said to reassure us looks like blatant lies.  I went from being cautiously optimistic about a Joker romance to actively hating Joker and hoping I could destroy EDI.

Thanks, Bioware.  You really make it easy for me to save money on future video game purchases, when you make it abundantly clear that you do not want female gamers as fans.

[lumlumlummm]

Huh, I just saw this exact thread on GFaqs, except with 10x more trolling.

[aedsu]

syllogi wrote...

Mims wrote...

I looove Garrus as a romance option, and was never planning on doing much else, but it still pisses me off to think that a lot of other Femsheps got ignored. Its just...why? They even have a gloriously rendered Vega chest model.

Whats worse, is that I feel like media in general has gotten into this TEAM JACOB VS TEAM EDWARD mentality. The majority of straight female fans probably were either shipping Garrus or Kaidan, so why bother with any others? Women just need two 'good' guys to fight over. But guys need a harem of choices!

Yep.  Just having at least two popular romance options that are treated relatively well doesn't negate how lousy the rest of the straight female Shepard romances were treated.

I often think about what the devs told Joker fans before the game came out.  That they shouldn't worry, that they would enjoy Joker's role...even when they knew that the majority of fans in his support thread wanted to romance him with their Shepard, and were against Joker/EDI for a multitude of reasons.  Then the game came out, and everything the devs said to reassure us looks like blatant lies.  I went from being cautiously optimistic about a Joker romance to actively hating Joker and hoping I could destroy EDI.

Thanks, Bioware.  You really make it easy for me to save money on future video game purchases, when you make it abundantly clear that you do not want female gamers as fans.

In regards to the bolded part, this is it exactly. This is the kind of crap I was trying to say earlier. I don't believe femsheps or female gamers were outright 'ignored', we were blatantly toyed with for more than this. It's in the game, it was in the dev responses, and how the rest of femshep's romances were handled. 

Ignored would have meant just limited scenes and conversations, not sudden and unavoidable death as well as a LI completely leaving you for his baby momma along with getting shot down by Joker and kinda-sorta James. Or like someone else said, his flirting is unavoidable so it may as well be sexual harassment. 

I'd say we were thrashed. 

And on the subject of gfaqs it's true, Lum sent me the screenshot. Some users said something about 'making a female character is an accessory [in a game]' and 'if you play femshep your opinion is invalid and thus making this a non-issue.' 

Which is not something I wanted to hear so early in the morning. 

edit: I actually like James flirty personality even if it went nowhere. He idk, 'kept it real' and treated Shepard like the human being he saw her as. Not that it makes it alright but I certainly thought that side of his character was very interesting. Especially when you call him on it. 

Modifié par aedsu, 27 avril 2012 - 03:16 .

[SleepIncarnate]

lumlumlummm wrote...

Huh, I just saw this exact thread on GFaqs, except with 10x more trolling.

Yeah, I started it there too.  I'm WraithGirl there.  And yeah, there are a couple trolls with the mindset that "if you play FemShep, your opinion is invalid" or "they made Kaidan gay by retcon!" there.  It's GFaqs, kind of to be expected.  But there are some players there who aren't here who do add some intelligent stuff to the conversation.  It's still an interesting and unfortunate topic though.

[aedsu]

SleepIncarnate wrote...

lumlumlummm wrote...

Huh, I just saw this exact thread on GFaqs, except with 10x more trolling.

Yeah, I started it there too.  I'm WraithGirl there.  And yeah, there are a couple trolls with the mindset that "if you play FemShep, your opinion is invalid" or "they made Kaidan gay by retcon!" there.  It's GFaqs, kind of to be expected.  But there are some players there who aren't here who do add some intelligent stuff to the conversation.  It's still an interesting and unfortunate topic though.

I only saw a screen cap, I'm sorry your thread over there got ransacked by hopeless tards. I suppose that board gathers 'that' crowd. It's like the good ol' boys gentlemen's club or something. yeesh. That user is completely ridiculous and I don't take him seriously but that's still a vicious statement. 

But even if a portion of Bioware believes that to be true through development of all games where they include a female option, then they're just plain old buttpuckers. 

Modifié par aedsu, 27 avril 2012 - 03:22 .

[SleepIncarnate]

aedsu wrote...

In regards to the bolded part, this is it exactly. This is the kind of crap I was trying to say earlier. I don't believe femsheps or female gamers were outright 'ignored', we were blatantly toyed with for more than this. It's in the game, it was in the dev responses, and how the rest of femshep's romances were handled. 

Ignored would have meant just limited scenes and conversations, not sudden and unavoidable death as well as a LI completely leaving you for his baby momma along with getting shot down by Joker and kinda-sorta James. Or like someone else said, his flirting is unavoidable so it may as well be sexual harassment. 

I'd say we were thrashed. 

And on the subject of gfaqs it's true, Lum sent me the screenshot. Some users said something about 'making a female character is an accessory [in a game]' and 'if you play femshep your opinion is invalid and thus making this a non-issue.' 

Which is not something I wanted to hear so early in the morning. 

edit: I actually like James flirty personality even if it went nowhere. He idk, 'kept it real' and treated Shepard like the human being he saw her as. Not that it makes it alright but I certainly thought that side of his character was very interesting. Especially when you call him on it. 

I do like how James turned out.  He's very much like a lot of the guys I served with, lots of bravado, lots of flirting, but it's all just chest pounding and play acting because that's what society expects of them.    And yeah, the GFaqs thing got ugly.  Like I said, it's GFaqs, a lot of trolls there.  A lot of the people blasting the game for "forcing ManShep to be gay", or just in general being sexist pricks.  It's a sad side effect f the GFaqs boards whenever something pertaining to sex, gender, or sexuality is raised. 

[SleepIncarnate]

Oh, and the trolls have basically started ignoring me and arguing among themselves. My favorite bit was this:

WraithGirl posted...

meshuggah06 posted...
Ok so if in star trek 6, if kirk suddenly started hitting on chekov you dont think tons of star trek fans wouldve burned paramount down? People wouldve been pissed because most people would see it as changing established characters personalities.

Arguing the "oh they just didnt show this aspect before" is irrelevant. That option wasnt there in the first two games, and you already get to know these characters through the 2 previous games. Suddenly making them attracted to one another is a change. You dont drastically alter a characters personality at the end of a story.

Well of course they'd be pissed off if Kirk was hitting on Chekov. Everyone knows that Kirk is the Archie to Spock and McCoy's Betty and Veronica.

That's basically when they started ignoring me for the most part, when they saw I wasn't going to take their trolling seriously and let them get me all worked up about it.

Modifié par SleepIncarnate, 27 avril 2012 - 03:29 .

[aedsu]

SleepIncarnate wrote...


I do like how James turned out.  He's very much like a lot of the guys I served with, lots of bravado, lots of flirting, but it's all just chest pounding and play acting because that's what society expects of them.    And yeah, the GFaqs thing got ugly.  Like I said, it's GFaqs, a lot of trolls there.  A lot of the people blasting the game for "forcing ManShep to be gay", or just in general being sexist pricks.  It's a sad side effect f the GFaqs boards whenever something pertaining to sex, gender, or sexuality is raised. 

Yeah exactly!! It's that grunt persona. He's a total bro but I absolutely love the character. He's mature under it all too, he's reckless but not volatile like Jack. Especially if you ask him to fix tech. That was priceless. D: 

Back though onto the subject of BSN vs Gfaqs, at least we're able to sit down like civil folk in this thread and discuss it like adults. That's refreshing because I'm not used to reading anything where there's a strong enough voice in favour of equality. In regards to femshep or female gamers. >: 

[lumlumlummm]

Yeah GFaqs is pretty terrible outside of some of the fighting game boards.

But on topic. I play male shepard, so uh, I can't really comment much, haha. I agree that female LIs are really unfair though. Kinda seems like Bioware went through with all the male stuff and then at the last minute remembered 'OH CRAP WE FORGOT FEMSHEP' or something, I dunno.

Still better than Baldur's Gate 2, where male PCs had 3 choices and female PCs were stuck with that pudding hatch Anomen.

[SleepIncarnate]

Hey, I'm a big advocate for equality, I believe we should all be treated equally until we prove otherwise (like those trolls). I don't care if someone is male, female, both, neither, or something else. Neither do I care if they're gay, straight, bi, pansexual, polysexual, asexual, demisexual, etc, or what the color of their skin is. And if someone doesn't speak up saying that kind of thing, then things really won't change. I mean, yes, eventually they'll change. 50 years from now, our kids and grandkids will find there was a time when people thought that other sexualities were inferior to being straight, but by then, there'll be a new demographic struggling for equality. Right now, my money's on that group being the transgender community, as they often get thrown under the bus by the LGB section of the LGBT community.

[SleepIncarnate]

lumlumlummm wrote...

Yeah GFaqs is pretty terrible outside of some of the fighting game boards.

But on topic. I play male shepard, so uh, I can't really comment much, haha. I agree that female LIs are really unfair though. Kinda seems like Bioware went through with all the male stuff and then at the last minute remembered 'OH CRAP WE FORGOT FEMSHEP' or something, I dunno.

Still better than Baldur's Gate 2, where male PCs had 3 choices and female PCs were stuck with that pudding hatch Anomen.

Yeah, I'm not saying that BioWare isn't still more progressive than most other game developers or that ME3 isn't still way better than most other games when it comes to examples of human rights done right.  All I'm saying is that BioWare has done better in the past and they really dropped the ball here.  Like you said, it's like they forgot FemShep until the last minute except for Garrus and went... "Oh, right, we still need to work on the lesbian human, don't we.  Anyone have any idea how to do this?  Someone go out and find some girl-girl porn so we know what to do" and went with sex with a terrible porno plot instead of romance.  Traynor is, as said, adorkable, but she remains a more believable lesbian love interest when she's NOT your chosen LI than when she is. 

Modifié par SleepIncarnate, 27 avril 2012 - 04:14 .

[DineBoo]

I'm just amazed at how BW treated femShep in the game, especially after since they finally gave her a cover.

They could have made the effort not to completely forget about Thane being an LI and not kill him off so early in the game. Or had the crew forget about him. Jacob is problematic, but they didn't have to treat his fans that stuck by him that horrid either.

And like it's been said, having Kaidan or Garrus available doesn't make up for the lack of care and loss of other LIs. Esepcially since Kaidan and Garrus could be dead.

There would be less anger if James was made avaiable. And if they didn't want to do that, Kaidan and Garrus needed to be expanded.

But I think some of this comes from the game trolling you for not having Liara as your true love. Look at what all she got. It's like they poured everything into her, and did lip service to everyone else.

[anmaiarna]

lumlumlummm wrote...

Still better than Baldur's Gate 2, where male PCs had 3 choices and female PCs were stuck with that pudding hatch Anomen.

Heeeey! I like Anomen.  Granted, I can't really distinguish the original romance from the player made flirt/romance mods anymore. Which raises the question, do I like vanilla Anomen or modded Anomen? Eh, I do believe it's time for another BG2 run.

Anyway, BG2 came out 12 years ago so saying that ME3 is better doesn't really say all that much. I mean, it'd be a damn shame if there hadn't been some progress in 12 years.  So I think it's a rather unfair comparison. Comparing ME3 to ME2, however, would better serve to highlight the problems that the game has when it comes to the romance arcs, or lack thereof, for femshep. 

On a personal level, I'm pretty satisfied because I rarely, if ever, stray from Garrus and I think they handled his romance arc pretty well. However, had I romanced Thane, Jacob, or perhaps waited for that special someone to come along and sweep me off my feet in ME3, I would've been sorely disappointed. I think it speaks volumes as to how BioWare treated Thane and Jacob in comparison to Miranda and Jack. I'm not saying that they couldn't have handled it better with the latter two, but at least maleshep is able to continue both of those romances. Don't get me wrong, I actually like the scene when Thane dies but the players who romanced him deserved more than what they got. Just a few added cutscenes, the people around Shep actually acknowledging that someone she highly cared for died, etc. 

And Jacob... yeah, don't get me started on that one...

Anyway, I would've loved to see James Vega as an LI or, perhaps, being able to invite Commander Bailey over for dinner (sockeye salmon of course). Hell, even Kal'Reegar sending a blurry, lens flare-y photo of himself to Shepard's e-mail would've been neat.

So I agree with SleepIncarnate: BioWare dropped the ball here.

Modifié par anmaiarna, 27 avril 2012 - 05:23 .

[SleepIncarnate]

I too liked how Thane died, as I said earlier. It was well done, with him sacrificing himself to protect another, either the Salarian Counselor if not romanced, or could be seen as protecting Shepard if he is romanced (cause he knows what Kai Leng is capable of and would rather sacrifice his life than risk her losing hers), then the prayer afterward for Shepard. Yes, the aftermath was very lacking, he should have had some acknowledgement of his death on the Normandy after, but everyone instead talked about the VS pointing a gun at you or the loss of the Non-VS. Also, his prayer could have been tailor made for a romanced Shepard (and honestly, some of the words he wrote make it sound like he had feelings for Shepard of either sex), and could have had him count for the achievement, or given him more dialogue besides the one conversation, but I think that they still sent him out in a way very appropriate to him, and that it had a bittersweet feel to it.

Thane's Prayer
Kalahira, mistress of inscrutable depths, I ask forgiveness.  Kalahira, whose waves wear down stone and sand--
Kalahira, wash the sins from this one, and set him on the distant shore of the infinite spirit.
Kalahira, this one's heart is pure, but beset by wickedness and contention.
Guide this one to where the traveler never tires, the lover never leaves, the hungry never starve.
Guide this one, Kalahira, and s/he will be a companion to you as s/he was to me.

Modifié par SleepIncarnate, 27 avril 2012 - 06:04 .