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What are you implying Bioware? (Synthesize this!)


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#451
MongoNYC

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Gill Kaiser wrote...

Mr. Gamble seems to find it a confusing concept that we already considered synthetics as equally valid forms of life. The organic and synthetic lifeform dichotomy is entirely fabricated, and the solution proposed is atrociously immoral. Why must organics and synthetics be merged into one? They're already life, and they each have a place in the cosmos. Synthesis takes away their future and everything they could become through the natural progession of a sentient culture.


And you know what else it takes away?  One of the very important aspects of all life: variation and diversity.

It's our differences that make us unique and special, not our similarities.

#452
Skull Bearer

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Skull Bearer wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

HinduCowGirl wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

A smart producer gauges what the audience wants if he plans on selling his art to a mass audience. A large majority of people don't like gloom and doom.

The people who want a more happy ending are the ones who make me come back here and make these topics.

I do this so you can have babies.


They should be glad this isn't the MOVIE we're talking about. They'll be able to rectify the game, but the movie would have been a disaster if it was built upon the same script with the insertion of star-brat at the very end. I wonder what debates that would have started in Cannes.

And that is one of the reasons I follow all of your posts.



I was around for the Lars von Trier Antichrist debacle. Don't google for that trailer at work. Bioware thinks THEY are in a hot mess.

That year a really great film was released with a GREAT amount of speculation. The White Ribbon. That film won the Palm'Dor (the highest honor) at Cannes and I was more than pleased to see it win. Not really a plesent film but it leaves you with the right amount of questions.


I always found that the perfect example of ambiguous endings and speculation done right is the Russian film Stalker. It's driving me nuts that some people have been comparing it's ending to that of ME3. Just... no.


The ending feels like a parody to Stalker. I don't know if Hudson was channeling Tarkovsky but if he was he failed. Miserably. Don't ever copy Tarkovsky guys. It can't be done.


It's often brought up as an example of how we Retakers are 'juvenile' and 'can't appreciate fine art'. Ugh.

#453
HinduCowGirl

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Skull Bearer wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I was around for the Lars von Trier Antichrist debacle. Don't google for that trailer at work. Bioware thinks THEY are in a hot mess.

That year a really great film was released with a GREAT amount of speculation. The White Ribbon. That film won the Palm'Dor (the highest honor) at Cannes and I was more than pleased to see it win. Not really a plesent film but it leaves you with the right amount of questions.


I always found that the perfect example of ambiguous endings and speculation done right is the Russian film Stalker. It's driving me nuts that some people have been comparing it's ending to that of ME3. Just... no.


The usual suspects is also such a movie where a total flipp worked out great, but it did not work very good for ME3... it tarnished ME3 'case it was so displaced and wrong in every aspect.

#454
Taboo

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MongoNYC wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Mr. Gamble seems to find it a confusing concept that we already considered synthetics as equally valid forms of life. The organic and synthetic lifeform dichotomy is entirely fabricated, and the solution proposed is atrociously immoral. Why must organics and synthetics be merged into one? They're already life, and they each have a place in the cosmos. Synthesis takes away their future and everything they could become through the natural progession of a sentient culture.


And you know what else it takes away?  One of the very important aspects of all life: variation and diversity.

It's our differences that make us unique and special, not our similarities.


This.

That's why those hammers are there.......in the original post.

Take the hint from Roger Waters Bioware........

#455
Taboo

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Skull Bearer wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Skull Bearer wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

HinduCowGirl wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

A smart producer gauges what the audience wants if he plans on selling his art to a mass audience. A large majority of people don't like gloom and doom.

The people who want a more happy ending are the ones who make me come back here and make these topics.

I do this so you can have babies.


They should be glad this isn't the MOVIE we're talking about. They'll be able to rectify the game, but the movie would have been a disaster if it was built upon the same script with the insertion of star-brat at the very end. I wonder what debates that would have started in Cannes.

And that is one of the reasons I follow all of your posts.



I was around for the Lars von Trier Antichrist debacle. Don't google for that trailer at work. Bioware thinks THEY are in a hot mess.

That year a really great film was released with a GREAT amount of speculation. The White Ribbon. That film won the Palm'Dor (the highest honor) at Cannes and I was more than pleased to see it win. Not really a plesent film but it leaves you with the right amount of questions.


I always found that the perfect example of ambiguous endings and speculation done right is the Russian film Stalker. It's driving me nuts that some people have been comparing it's ending to that of ME3. Just... no.


The ending feels like a parody to Stalker. I don't know if Hudson was channeling Tarkovsky but if he was he failed. Miserably. Don't ever copy Tarkovsky guys. It can't be done.


It's often brought up as an example of how we Retakers are 'juvenile' and 'can't appreciate fine art'. Ugh.


I laugh at them. They haven't seen a thing.

I had to import a DVD box set of Theo Angelopoulos films from the UK. Those films are so dense no one in the United States will market them.

HA! PRIMITIVES!

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 26 avril 2012 - 11:44 .


#456
Devil Mingy

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HinduCowGirl wrote...

The usual suspects is also such a movie where a total flipp worked out great, but it did not work very good for ME3... it tarnished ME3 'case it was so displaced and wrong in every aspect.


It helped that the twist ending to Usual Suspects made viewers questions their interpretation of the story. Mass Effect 3's ending made players question the consistency and, dare I say it, integrity of the story. I certainly didn't finish Usual Suspects and go "Wait, none of this makes any sense".

#457
nitefyre410

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Skull Bearer wrote...

*snip* 
It's often brought up as an example of how we Retakers are 'juvenile' and 'can't appreciate fine art'. Ugh.

  

They would compare ME 3 ending to pre-school finger painting  if they though it  did anything to try  Discredit   those who don't like that ending..  Because we all know that  Bioware  can do  no wrong... EVER and can never  be criticized for anything they do.. no matter how bad it is- it will always be a golden pile of poo...   

If you every criticize Bioware in the slightest  you are  "Juvinelle" Man child who watch Anime and is not but stupid COD/Gearz fanboi who is too stupid to understand  the majesty of ME 3 ending. ... <_<   *turns scarasm off* 

Bare in my mind I can name at least 10 Animes that would make ME 3  ending and story look pre-school.. There is really is no need to take it  to films  the ones  you and Taboo speak of because really its not fair. 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 26 avril 2012 - 11:56 .


#458
Taboo

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The reason the ending don't work is because there is no cohesion. Had there been more clarity in what happened originally the impact would have been lessened.

Alas, someone made the first big gaming derp of 2012.

#459
d-boy15

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well, if he really think synthasis is the best idea, then take away the side effect
in destroy ending that genocide geth and see what peoples decide.

#460
Taboo

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d-boy15 wrote...

well, if he really think synthasis is the best idea, then take away the side effect
in destroy ending that genocide geth and see what peoples decide.


We just need to wait and see.

#461
Kunari801

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

HinduCowGirl wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

If they did as I suggested you wouldn't *have* to eradicate the Geth.  My Shepard would gladly give his life to kill the Reapers so those he cared about --his friends and loved ones-- can live.   "Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams."  



Shepard already died once. Killing him again lessens the impact. He sacrifices himself in two endings. There doesn't need to be three. With a High enough EMS only the Reapers are destroyed. There are already billions and billions and BILLIONS of dead people. That's already mature enough.



I have no objections if I could Destroy the Reapers and save the Relays, Geth, EDI, and retire with my LI.




That would solve.......all my problems. ONLY because I'm such a softie.  



 I'd love kill the Reapers and ride off into the sunset next to Kaidan and adopt a bunch of blue babies from Liara.  
I'm a softie too, but I'm trying to keep my hopes for the EC grounded so it doesn't disapoint me.  


Was there ANY moments of happiness in ME3 that overran all the heart shattering deaths of your friends? Well, of course Ranoch was one of them... but ME3 was more of a train of endless heart pain and tears flooding - you would expect that it would end good, but it didn't... tripple BAH!


I lost Miranda, Mordin and Legion on the way and yes all those deaths hurt.  I actually teared up each time!   Especially at Mordin's final speech, personalizing his sacrifice for his nephew.   However, I never assumed Shepard would survive the war.  

My moment of happiness in ME3: The night with my LI was the most happy my Shepard had been, he finally got the LI he wanted since ME1.  


Are you LGBT? If not I apologize for making an assumption. Anyway

I was so happy to see that Bioware was including choices for LGBT people. They get to see these two wonderful characters, Steve and Samantha and don't really get to do much after the end. As for Kaiden he never seems to survive in my playthroughs.

You don't have to be gay to appreciate gay characters.


I don't want to derail your thread, but Yes I am.    They took out those LI options from ME1 prior to release --for reasons that should be obvious-- and I'm glad they did include them in ME3.  (I recently found a hack that lets you enable it in ME1 though :happy:)

Modifié par Kunari801, 27 avril 2012 - 12:45 .


#462
Taboo

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Kunari801 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

HinduCowGirl wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

If they did as I suggested you wouldn't *have* to eradicate the Geth.  My Shepard would gladly give his life to kill the Reapers so those he cared about --his friends and loved ones-- can live.   "Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams."  



Shepard already died once. Killing him again lessens the impact. He sacrifices himself in two endings. There doesn't need to be three. With a High enough EMS only the Reapers are destroyed. There are already billions and billions and BILLIONS of dead people. That's already mature enough.



I have no objections if I could Destroy the Reapers and save the Relays, Geth, EDI, and retire with my LI.




That would solve.......all my problems. ONLY because I'm such a softie.  



 I'd love kill the Reapers and ride off into the sunset next to Kaidan and adopt a bunch of blue babies from Liara.  
I'm a softie too, but I'm trying to keep my hopes for the EC grounded so it doesn't disapoint me.  


Was there ANY moments of happiness in ME3 that overran all the heart shattering deaths of your friends? Well, of course Ranoch was one of them... but ME3 was more of a train of endless heart pain and tears flooding - you would expect that it would end good, but it didn't... tripple BAH!


I lost Miranda, Mordin and Legion on the way and yes all those deaths hurt.  I actually teared up each time!   Especially at Mordin's final speech, personalizing his sacrifice for his nephew.   However, I never assumed Shepard would survive the war.  

My moment of happiness in ME3: The night with my LI was the most happy my Shepard had been, he finally got the LI he wanted since ME1.  


Are you LGBT? If not I apologize for making an assumption. Anyway

I was so happy to see that Bioware was including choices for LGBT people. They get to see these two wonderful characters, Steve and Samantha and don't really get to do much after the end. As for Kaiden he never seems to survive in my playthroughs.

You don't have to be gay to appreciate gay characters.


I don't want to derail your thread, but Yes I am.    They took out those LI options from ME1 prior to release --for reasons that should be obvious-- and I'm glad they did include them in ME3.  (I recently found a hack that lets you enable it in ME1 though :happy:)



Yes..........Fox News. :sick: 

I hope to see the LGBT players reuniting with their respective LI.

Make it happen. Love is love.:)

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 27 avril 2012 - 12:49 .


#463
Sean

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Gill Kaiser wrote...

RX_Sean_XI wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

It's a joke. I cannot fathom the implications. The horror. Who the hell thought this was a good idea?


Remember they didn't make the ending. Not really anyways.

They just stole it from Deus Ex.

In Deus Ex the world was a dystopia and under the control of the Illuminati. The world was already screwed, so forming an AI god with Helios was a legitimate (even preferred) option.

The important differences between Deus Ex's transhumanist ending and ME3 are:

- In the Helios ending, it's only Denton, the player, that is merging. The choice is yours to make.
- It's also important that Helios is working against the antagonist with you; he is not the antagonist himself.
- The alternatives to merging are a to cause a worldwide technological apocalypse, or to allow the Illuminati to continue to manipulate the world for their own ends, even if it means genocide.

ME3's Synthesis ending is as if you decided to merge Bob Page with Helios to form a new psychotic AI, spread it throughout the world's population via the Gray Death, then decided to blow up the world's communications hub AS WELL.

It's just so wrong, I can't even think about it.


Never played Deus Ex but heard it was good. The ending makes sense for that game, in ME3 it seems like some Bioware employee just played Deus Ex and at the last moment and wanted it in Mass Effect 3.

#464
Taboo

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The new footage needs to reflect ALL the themes Bioware.

#465
Ericus

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Taboo-XX wrote...

What Synthesis essentially proposes to me is a bastardized Utopia. One created by forcibly removing the things that make the species unique, their diversity. One person was given this choice.......ONE. No one asked the humans, the asari, the krogan, the geth about what THEY wanted. We are given topical information by a Star Child who proposes this is the only solution to this problem. Shepard has no option to even discuss anything. Are you serious Bioware? By removing the undesirable elements we can achieve peace? Do you understand the political undertones in this? 


It's more than just political undertones.  Honestly, does anyone really think that there would be no more war/conflict/violence in the world if everyone's skin colour turned green?  I mean, that'd make us all the same, right?  All the progress we've made to get past social segregation in the last 50-odd years proves that it's not such superficial differences that matter!  As virtually everyone else has said on this board, it's the deeper diversity in our beliefs and cultures that makes life so rich and meaningful.  Unfortunately, that also means there will always be periods of conflict between those beliefs.  In short, Synthesis doesn't solve any problems, it just wallpapers over them.

#466
Seryl

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MisterJB wrote...
What is wrong to one person may not be wrong to another and we judge people and situations based on the values that we were taught. It's the sad truth.


Moral Relativism is complete crap. I know this because there are actions that are equally repugnant across almost every civilization ever to arise (ie. murder). If Moral Relativism holds true, that wouldn't be so.

I consider that making a decision for other people is morally sound as long as the decision is for their good and I don't believe we should thake their opinion into consideration. You might disagree and judge this as wrong which I will acept.


Then you are arrogant. This is the worst kind of infantilization of others because you would believe that you are better equipped to decide for other what is in there best interests based simply on the idea that you think it's better.

Ask the gays how being told who they could and couldn't love felt. After all, the people in power also thought they knew what was better for gays than gay people did. But, since those in power made that decision for homosexuals own good, then the opposing opinion shouldn't be considered. Why bother right? What could they possibly know about that topic?

See the problem?

The StarChild spoke the truth when it said Reapers preserve organic civilizations, we've seen it happen.


Cite your sources. The Reapers liquify members of a civilization in order to build new Reapers. That's not the same as preserving. Not by any stretch.

Its words make sense(synthetics will, eventually, destroy organics) and the alternative is to believe it created a solution for a problem that doesn't exist which is nonsensical. Clearly, it doesn't want to wipe out organics or the Reapers could easily transform the galaxy into a wasteland and it is also the oldest form of counsciousness is the galaxy so, it could have seen synthetics destroy organic civilizations.
 Therefore, I'm willing to believe in what it says.


How does its words make sense? It is advocating a pre-emptive strike on the victims. If synthetics are the aggressors (and the phrase "Synthetics will eventually destroy organics" makes clear that they are) then the LOGICAL thing to do would be to kill the Synthetics. The organics would be the victims, so you should be protecting them.

There is evidence to the counter what this kid is saying right outside the window. The brat has been in existance for who knows how long, is a synthetic, and hasn't wiped out all organic life ... so he is also his own counter-point. Yet, ignoring all of that, you're willing to believe what the brat says, based on fourteen lines of dialogue?

On one hand, you ovewrite the free will of every creature in the galaxy just once but you give them a much stronger possiblity of preventing a war.


Committing a massive crime is OK, as long you only do it once? Good to know.

The Geth have made no aggressive moves after they defended themselves from the Quarians. EDI has also made zero aggressive moves since she tried to defend herself on Luna. Again, the brat's logic is refuted.

On the other hand, you uphold free will but also risk the complete extinction of organic life at the hands of synthetics. I am not willing to take that risk and I also see ways of not just saving, but improving the galaxy through Synthesis.


Those who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
- Benjamin Franklin

1-Shepard is partially synthetic and he seems to be doing fine.
2-Unlike true Synthesis, that was organics trying to use synthetics for their own ends, not that different from what happened between the geth and quarians. Synthesis would be a symbiotic relationship, they would become as much a part of us as our DNA.


1. Shepard is the only example of a being that is merged with synthetics and having no ill effects.
2. Javik's example specifically mentioned that the synthetics in his cycle used implants to enhance their intelligence. They tried to go for True Synthesis, even giving the implants the ability to shape the genetic structure at the deepest level. Look what happened to them.

I think I'm bowing out of this. I've articulated exactly why I believe Synthesis to be disgusting. Trading away one of the defining characteristics of life for some shiny, synthetic toys is monstrous. The concept  that one person, or group of people, know better than I do what is good for me is just abhorrent. I don't think I can explain it any better.

#467
Mr. Gogeta34

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Synthesis makes everyone part machine and part organic...

Though I still fail to see how that would prevent synthetics from eventually destroying organics...

#468
Velocithon

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The problem with synthesis is you can still make synthetics, right?

If so I fail to see how this course of action solves anything.

#469
Drummernate

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God... I love all these synthesis threads.

I make a point to comment in every one of them I see.


I support synthesis, being part robot would be pretty freaking cool. You would be able to think much faster than with a normal brain. At least math and stuff like that. :P

#470
frozngecko

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Synthesis = husks

Enough said.

#471
kratosmr

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Something I find really disturbing is how anyone could think this is the ideal solution. Hitler wanted to wipe out everyone who was not white thereby creating the master race. Although their is no killing per se with synthesis is the end result not the same? Did they just sit there and think of this and think 'oh that sounds cool, we'll use that'. If they did and didn't think for a moment about how they would feel if something like this happened to them, then that is very worrying.

Could they honestly sit there and say to themselves that they would not mind if this happened to them. They wouldnt mind every shred of diversity being stripped away. I can understand what they are trying to say that there is only life left but what I don't and will never get is how this is right on any level. As Taboo-XX said only one person got asked and no one has the right to decide for the entire galaxy and no one should ever just decide that non organics are not alive. Have they not seen Star Trek? There is distinctions like this in real life but there is only one human race despite the differences. I trully hope they are not trying to imply that we should not accept each other until we are litterally all the same. And in the end the entire game of ME3 proves that synthesis is not even neceassary in the first place.

#472
Ericus

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Drummernate wrote...

God... I love all these synthesis threads.

I make a point to comment in every one of them I see.


I support synthesis, being part robot would be pretty freaking cool. You would be able to think much faster than with a normal brain. At least math and stuff like that. :P


As an individual, I would probably choose transhumanism as well.  The problem with Synthesis is, Shepard isn't just choosing it for himself, but for every other lifeform in the galaxy!  Unless they have the opportunity to make the choice for themselves, this is a blatantly unethical choice.

#473
Drummernate

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It seems Shepard gets to make choices that damn entire races far too often anyways.

Why not just force the whole galaxy into something and call it a day?

Krogan Genophage... Geth/Quarian annihilation... See what I mean?

#474
Mylia Stenetch

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Ericus wrote...

Drummernate wrote...

God... I love all these synthesis threads.

I make a point to comment in every one of them I see.


I support synthesis, being part robot would be pretty freaking cool. You would be able to think much faster than with a normal brain. At least math and stuff like that. :P


As an individual, I would probably choose transhumanism as well.  The problem with Synthesis is, Shepard isn't just choosing it for himself, but for every other lifeform in the galaxy!  Unless they have the opportunity to make the choice for themselves, this is a blatantly unethical choice.


The problem with that though is, as I said earlier in the thread (about morality). It is what your interpretation of what is ethical to you (or morality). During time of war, morality and ethics are usually through out the window, and we follow the idea of kill or be killed with become dominant. This is amplified when you are facing genocide of all races in the know galaxy. *You* will take what you think is the best at that moment. If you want to look at the endings with Western Morality and ethics. All ending are horendous for what they are doing, they are taking every right people had and throwing it down the tube.

But in a time when you in your Mary-Sue hands have the gift of God to say who lives or dies of what evolution path comes next, you can become corrupt. This could sway you own ethical opinion of certain things look at the "greater" scheme.

You did not ask the Geth if they want to die after gaining self-awarness. You did not check to see if was okay to dominate the reapers. Just the same you never got consent to make everyone evolve or synthesize.

#475
nitefyre410

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Mylia Stenetch wrote...

Ericus wrote...

Drummernate wrote...

God... I love all these synthesis threads.

I make a point to comment in every one of them I see.


I support synthesis, being part robot would be pretty freaking cool. You would be able to think much faster than with a normal brain. At least math and stuff like that. :P


As an individual, I would probably choose transhumanism as well.  The problem with Synthesis is, Shepard isn't just choosing it for himself, but for every other lifeform in the galaxy!  Unless they have the opportunity to make the choice for themselves, this is a blatantly unethical choice.


The problem with that though is, as I said earlier in the thread (about morality). It is what your interpretation of what is ethical to you (or morality). During time of war, morality and ethics are usually through out the window, and we follow the idea of kill or be killed with become dominant. This is amplified when you are facing genocide of all races in the know galaxy. *You* will take what you think is the best at that moment. If you want to look at the endings with Western Morality and ethics. All ending are horendous for what they are doing, they are taking every right people had and throwing it down the tube.

But in a time when you in your Mary-Sue hands have the gift of God to say who lives or dies of what evolution path comes next, you can become corrupt. This could sway you own ethical opinion of certain things look at the "greater" scheme.

You did not ask the Geth if they want to die after gaining self-awarness. You did not check to see if was okay to dominate the reapers. Just the same you never got consent to make everyone evolve or synthesize.

 

in short the choices are above  our pay grade... unless I was upgraded to God level pay  grade and did not know it.