897 réponses à ce sujet

[Shaftell]

Playing Mass Effect, I personally established that a KEY element thematically to the franchise was cultural diversity and our acceptance of them... i.e. Geth vs. Quarian and Krogan vs. Salarian... How do we cope with one another? The Synthesis ending is not only bad, but thematically appalling and contradictory.

[Xandurpein]

What also distresses me with this ending is the implied Hegelian dialectic, while totally misunderstanding what Hegelian dialectic is about. A dialectic way to look at the problem of organic and synthetic life is to realize that there is no conflict, because with deeper understanding we see that there is only life. Thesis, antithesis and synthesis is about gaining deeper understanding, not about green space magic. The green space magic is the exact opposite of this logic.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 27 avril 2012 - 05:58 .

[HinduCowGirl]

What they really need to start thinking about is to CLARIFY what they are intending to do, not just a release date or some vague tweets.

Come clear and tell how they are going about with the Extended Cut. Will there be a happy ending?!

[incinerator950]

Implying that they implied specific implications?

[Nassegris]

What messes it up for me more than anything is how it doesn’t belong.

See – it’s obviously a twist ending because of how it’s presented, but a great twist ending comes along as a reveal. It’s a ‘wow’ moment, where everything suddenly makes sense, and your perception of the events that came before subtly changes – but on a second viewing, a twist ending can be seen in all the little details. You can gasp and think to yourself – look! That’s where this detail first shows up, how neat!

But here, there is a twist ending with no anchor in the game, and instead of making everything that came before slightly different and cool, it makes everything into poo.

Synthesis makes no sense. It has no foreshadowing. You can’t expect us to make an informed decision when there is no place for this theory in the game world. It’s never been touched on, never referred to and never hinted at. This is no clever Fight Club where a second viewing makes everything all the more interesting – it’s just frustrating and angering. No matter how you turn it, there isn’t enough information in the game for this silly idea to belong there. A few lines of dialogue at the very end don’t suffice. It makes Synthesis look tacked-on and ridiculous.

Without the context to make an informed decision, we might as well not make a decision at all regarding the outcome. No reason to trust the Space Brat because we’ve given no reason to trust it. No reason to believe that Synthesis isn’t mass-rape because we have no context to tell us otherwise. We can freely assume the worst about any of the choices because Bioware did not bother to tie them into the game properly. That’s why that whole scene feels so ridiculous – it’s a very poorly made twist ending.

When we can’t make an informed decision, we could just make a random one. It could be a ‘pick a door, any door’ situation with a random result and we wouldn’t really get to see the result or the consequences of our random choice. We’re guessing at the outcome, here. That’s not an open-ended result – it’s a slap in the face.

Synthesis makes no sense. Neither do the other alternatives, but Synthesis makes the least sense of all. How is it the best choice? We have zero in-game explanation to how this would work. If you want to toss in such a weird concept into the game – then you need to bloody well foreshadow it in the rest of the game. Give us enough information within the context of your own damn game, Bioware, so that at the end we’re not just making wild guesses.

And no, by that I don’t mean that Space Brat should just get more dialogue, that’s ridiculous. We still have no reason to trust that thing. It means that the game, in the first place, should have been constructed in such a way that the ending belongs and we arrive at that point with the information we need to feel good about it.

If they’re asking Shepard to change everything, s/he needs more than the words of an untrustworthy source to make any kind of reasonable choice. Otherwise our protagonist is turned into a gullible idiot.

/rant

Modifié par Nassegris, 27 avril 2012 - 09:54 .

[azerSheppard]

Taboo-XX wrote...

[b]At what point in development was it deemed the best solution to rewrite the way the universe has functioned for billions and billions of years?

Stopped reading after this, you don't seem to even know the difference between a galaxy and the universe.

[nicethugbert]

If you helped the Geth achieve life, then it only stands to reason that you are in favor of synthethis, because if a pure synthetic can be alive, then so can a hybrid synthetic/organic.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 27 avril 2012 - 09:51 .

[Cyruge]

"there's only life" lol what a bunch of BS

[Gill Kaiser]

nicethugbert wrote...

If you helped the Geth achieve life, then it only stands to reason that you are in favor of synthethis, because if a pure synthetic can be alive, then so can a hybrid synthetic/organic.

What? That makes no sense. If you helped the geth, you believe they're already valid forms of life, and therefore synthesis is not only unnecessary but a violation of organic and synthetic alike.

I don't understand your point. The question is not whether a organic-synthetic hybrid would be alive. It obviously would be. The question is why is it necessary (according to our dealings with the geth, it isn't), and how do we justify forcing a fundamental change on all life in the galaxy without their consent, at the behest of the LEADER OF THE REAPERS?

[Shaigunjoe]

Just before hand, I always like your posts, and I want to take a stab at some of the questions you pose. And hear some of your thoughts on my thoughts.

Taboo-XX wrote...

At what point was it deemed ethical for one person to decide what was best for the universe? To play god?

It isn't ethical, but thats the name of the game.  Shep has always been placed in choices were she gets to decide who lives and who dies. I feel like a moral dilemma of this magnitude is a fitting finale for a game that posed lots of moral questions.  If the choice of what was the most etchical was clear, it would not be a moral dilemma.

How do you merge synthetic and organics?

This, like pretty much everything else I am or going to say is all speculation based on what we know.  However, I do not think it is a merging of synthetic and organic in the cyborg sense.  A new DNA framework is created, and that is all we know, but from their you can pretty much imagine anything with an optimisitic or pecimistic view.

How do they reproduce now? Are the usual elements no longer favorable? Are sperm and eggs obsolete?

Thats all speculation, given the questions that arise when dealing with a new definition of life in general, its no wonder they left in vague.

Why is Joker still limping? His condition doesn't seem to have benefitted by being turned into something else.

Chances are he would have to go into some sort of stasis if he wanted to regrow his bones, I don't think the fact that he is limping at the end is all that telling of what went down.

Plants are now shown sentient now too. Can I no longer eat vegetables? Fruit?

They are not shown as sentient, they are shown to have the same DNA framework (much as they do now)

Do I have to eat? Sleep?

Eat definitly, though the manner of eating could be different, would you be able to photosynthesis food from sunlight? Maybe, but you might want to move closer to a sun if you do.

To what extreme is the synthesis? Do I still have free will?

I would say so, borg this is not.

To what degree are the original synthetics affected? Do they grow hair and real feelings? Skin?

I would say that if they wanted to, they could, based on the star kids final evolution statement.  If you take that in a purely biological sense, it means that life no longer needs to wait on genetic drift/natural selection/random mutation to change DNA, leaving that change up to the individual, which would make life way more diverse than it is now.

Joker's hat is green as well. Are synthetic fibers affected as well? Can I no longer wear certain types of pants because they might find me in them obejctionable?

Don't have a good answer for this in a literal sense, but I'm sure Jeff's hat and him are good friends.

So everything I have said before is based on a literal interpretation of things that were shown.  Personally, I don't think thats really whats intended, but sometimes I like to play the game anyway.

Long story short, I think the ending that is shown is the Legend of Shepard being told by the SG to the kid, and that far in the future the symbolism of the story is more important than what happened, with that being said I want to answer your first question:

At what point in development was it
deemed the best solution to rewrite the way the universe has functioned
for billions and billions of years?

I think bioware feels this is the best solution because it represents cultural synthesis, given the other two options (segregation and eradication), merging of cultures has shown to be more effective solution for peace.  There will be rough spots but I don't think the future would be as bleak as it would be with segregation or eradication.

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 27 avril 2012 - 01:33 .

[RocketManSR2]

Add one more "must" for the EC. The geth & EDI must survive the destroy ending. I won't have BioWare's anti-synthetic crap pushed on me. My Shepard will live, he will reunite with his LI/crew, and the geth will get to help the quarians and the rest of the galaxy rebuild.

[Kunari801]

 

Taboo-XX wrote...

The awful thing is that we don't stand to lose anything in this.

If they fail........thousands of people will just get up and leave and take their respect with them. You can't buy that. 

 

Seracen wrote...

Synthesis may have made sense, in that there could have been a need for it, had the story been written a certain way.

HOWEVER...whoever was in charge of Legion ad EDI's character arcs did a darn good job, proving that synthetics have a soul, emotions, and a right to life in the ME Universe.

Therefore, Synthesis becomes repugnant, grossly inadequate...

Bravo to both of you.  

With news that at least one voice talent is starting work soon, I hope that means they took the time on the EC and have seen many of these worries and issues we have with the endings.  I'm not sure what they can do with Synthesis but I have posted ideas to expand Control and Destroy (few pages back).   Add in expanded epilogues with our companions,. LI reunion/mourning moment, and a hopeful glimpse of the galaxy rebuilding and it'll vastly improve the ending.   

It wouldn't take much for Destroy and Control to be improved.  The epilogue link in my sig uses the endings as-is and makes both of them tolerable for my "Head Canon" and even tries to make Synthesis less repugnant.  

Mass Effect deserves to go out on a brilliant high note.  BW please make that happen, not just for us fans, but for you as well.

[Kunari801]

Seracen wrote...

 You can't appy THOSE endings to ME3, unless you intend to have Shep be the villain in ME4, or whatever...

Oh man, I think I just threw up in my brain. How abhorrent would it be if they wnt that route? I mean, I can just see it as a giant Shyamalan "twist," to have Shep end up the bad guy in the next game. I can see it now, James Vega leading a battalion of different-but-homogenized soldiers, fighting against his former commander...oh the DRAMA....(puke)...

As it is we're forced to pick a war crime at the end:  

 

[Cobra's_back]

Green is the option the Catalyst wanted. I went back to listen to what it said. When he introduced the option to Shepard, Shepard clearly had reservations. Shepard said “ I don’t know” and “will there be peace”. The catalyst doesn’t answer Shepard’s question. The Catalyst does say, “It is the FINAL evolution of life, but we need each other to make it happen”.

It doesn’t change the organic’s personality. Saren hated human, Kai Leng hated all aliens and hybrids like them will still be around. The only difference is that the power hungry manic and the sociopath is smarter and can do more damage. The destruction of the natural evolution process serves what purpose?

Modifié par ghostbusters101, 27 avril 2012 - 03:07 .

[nitefyre410]

HinduCowGirl wrote...

What they really need to start thinking about is to CLARIFY what they are intending to do, not just a release date or some vague tweets.

Come clear and tell how they are going about with the Extended Cut. Will there be a happy ending?!

 


They won't do that because they would have to admit they made a mistake in the first place. Everything they have said every statement comes off as is they feel like they are have made no such mistake in any of the endings.   When anybody  can  go tear the hood of these things and see how much of the mess they are.. bottom line is that all this boils down  Bioware protecting and soothing  Casey  Hudson and Mac Walters  poor little ego's 

and that what disgust me the most... we being called idots in more less words to  soothes some ones ego who can deal with the fact they  screwed up.   

Then again I tend to be bit harsher in my assesments than most people so take this with a grain of salt. 

[Kunari801]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Green is the option the Catalyst wanted. I went back to listen to what it said. When he introduced the option to Shepard, Shepard clearly had reservations. Shepard said “ I don’t know” and “will there be peace”. The catalyst doesn’t answer Shepard’s question. The Catalyst does say, “It is the FINAL evolution of life, but we need each other to make it happen”.

It doesn’t change the organic’s personality. Saren hated human, Kai Leng hated all aliens and hybrids like them will still be around. The only difference is that the power hungry manic and the sociopath is smarter and can do more damage. The destruction of the natural evolution process serves what purpose?

The inability to argue with Star-brat was very annoying to me.   

[ElSuperGecko]

Posted this elsewhere, may as well post it here as well as the "Synthesis" ending to me is an abomination.

Wasn't the entire point of the game - and the series - to ensure the Starbrat's solution no longer worked? Isn't stopping the Reapers cycle of extinction that what we're fighting for in the first place?

Isn't the Catalyst's self-imposed "solution" to a problem which may or may not even happen the reason the galaxy is in this mess in the first place?

Let's be clear here - Synthesis is NOT Shepard's idea. It's not Hackett's idea, Anderson's idea or even the Illusive Man's idea. It's the Catalyst's idea. It's original solution - the Reapers - has become compromised by the actions of this cycle. So it's offering Synthesis up itself as an alternative.

And as shown by the Catalyst's lack of remorse for the billions it has destroyed and it's actual defence of it's solution of the Reapers, it doesn't really give a damn about any organics at all. It only cares that it's Reaper solution is under threat.

Choosing Synthesis is putting the fate of the galaxy BACK in the hands of the Catalyst, back in the hands of the being responsible for the Reapers, and the extinction of thousands of civilisations over millions of years. And the Reapers survive as well. Implications... unpleasant.

[Cobra's_back]

Kunari801 wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Green is the option the Catalyst wanted. I went back to listen to what it said. When he introduced the option to Shepard, Shepard clearly had reservations. Shepard said “ I don’t know” and “will there be peace”. The catalyst doesn’t answer Shepard’s question. The Catalyst does say, “It is the FINAL evolution of life, but we need each other to make it happen”.

It doesn’t change the organic’s personality. Saren hated human, Kai Leng hated all aliens and hybrids like them will still be around. The only difference is that the power hungry manic and the sociopath is smarter and can do more damage. The destruction of the natural evolution process serves what purpose?

The inability to argue with Star-brat was very annoying to me.   

Just let Shepard die next to Anderson is better than the Star brat Crap.

[Cobra's_back]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Posted this elsewhere, may as well post it here as well as the "Synthesis" ending to me is an abomination.

Wasn't the entire point of the game - and the series - to ensure the Starbrat's solution no longer worked? Isn't stopping the Reapers cycle of extinction that what we're fighting for in the first place?

Isn't the Catalyst's self-imposed "solution" to a problem which may or may not even happen the reason the galaxy is in this mess in the first place?

Let's be clear here - Synthesis is NOT Shepard's idea. It's not Hackett's idea, Anderson's idea or even the Illusive Man's idea. It's the Catalyst's idea. It's original solution - the Reapers - has become compromised by the actions of this cycle. So it's offering Synthesis up itself as an alternative.

And as shown by the Catalyst's lack of remorse for the billions it has destroyed and it's actual defence of it's solution of the Reapers, it doesn't really give a damn about any organics at all. It only cares that it's Reaper solution is under threat.

Choosing Synthesis is putting the fate of the galaxy BACK in the hands of the Catalyst, back in the hands of the being responsible for the Reapers, and the extinction of thousands of civilisations over millions of years. And the Reapers survive as well. Implications... unpleasant.

I agree with this totally.

[Taboo]

 @shaigainjoe.

I'll be honest. I believe Bioware wanted me to believe what I was watching was to be interpreted literally. This is the great failing of the ending on their part and one of the most insulting things I've even seen presented to a compotent audience. I've seen some dumb things at film festivals and heard even dumber things presented by artists but "Lots of Speculation for everyone." is the most disastrous option I've ever seen implemented from an artist. Is that REALLY the inference Mr Hudson and Mr Walters wanted thousands of people to take away from this?

I cannot provide concrete answers without concrete information. What Bioware has essentially asked me to do is extrapolate from data that isn't there. Ambiguity is a really cool story telling technique when done correctly but when it is done poorly it insults the audience. They failed and failed badly.

New topic in a moment. Something Mr. Priestly said yesterday rustled my jimmies...........

[nitefyre410]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Posted this elsewhere, may as well post it here as well as the "Synthesis" ending to me is an abomination.

Wasn't the entire point of the game - and the series - to ensure the Starbrat's solution no longer worked? Isn't stopping the Reapers cycle of extinction that what we're fighting for in the first place?

Isn't the Catalyst's self-imposed "solution" to a problem which may or may not even happen the reason the galaxy is in this mess in the first place?

Let's be clear here - Synthesis is NOT Shepard's idea. It's not Hackett's idea, Anderson's idea or even the Illusive Man's idea. It's the Catalyst's idea. It's original solution - the Reapers - has become compromised by the actions of this cycle. So it's offering Synthesis up itself as an alternative.

And as shown by the Catalyst's lack of remorse for the billions it has destroyed and it's actual defence of it's solution of the Reapers, it doesn't really give a damn about any organics at all. It only cares that it's Reaper solution is under threat.

Choosing Synthesis is putting the fate of the galaxy BACK in the hands of the Catalyst, back in the hands of the being responsible for the Reapers, and the extinction of thousands of civilisations over millions of years. And the Reapers survive as well. Implications... unpleasant.

 

Really whats most agrivating is that all the solutions  presented  are The Catalyst Solutions and  known of them are  Shepards or ours.  Anyone of three you pick - your  agreeing his  terrible flawed prepective.   Let someone wrote in a head canon ending...there was already an order a natural order.. . that  the Reapers disrupt. Their solution is not a soluiton because  none  learn anything.. no one learns, adapts and over comes.

To hell with that -  I would   rather my Shepard  go down fighting... let  his and her broken bones be the road that paves  the way for the next cycle to bring this maddness to an end.  It would have had more meaning than the drivel we got as an ending.  

Modifié par nitefyre410, 27 avril 2012 - 03:41 .

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Shaftell wrote...

Playing Mass Effect, I personally established that a KEY element thematically to the franchise was cultural diversity and our acceptance of them... i.e. Geth vs. Quarian and Krogan vs. Salarian... How do we cope with one another? The Synthesis ending is not only bad, but thematically appalling and contradictory.

This is where I think the execution of the ending does not match the intent of the ending. I truly believe that BioWare intended for "Synthesis" to mean different cultures/races putting their differences aside, and uniting with one another in love and harmony.  I do not believe they intended for "Synthesis" to be the literal homogonizing of all people into a single race, but rather a figurative joining together & dropping the hate, racism, putting an end to war, etc.

The problem is, this isn't effectively communicated in the ending, so it is entirely reasonable to assume the "anti-diversity" interpretation.

[Kunari801]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Just let Shepard die next to Anderson is better than the Star brat Crap.

Agreed!  There is a youtube ending that cuts out Star-brat completely, IIRC it uses the Destroy cinematic after Anderson bleeds out and it works perfectly.  The only reason to have Star-brat was to introduce a morale dilemma ending and try and explain the Reapers.  We didn't need either.  

[RocketManSR2]

I was a bit slower in my hatred of how ME3 ended. Maybe I'm not as smart as some or I was dazzled by the pretty lights, who knows? In any case, topics like this have helped me to grasp what I was feeling in having to choose a color. I didn't really like any choice deep down. TIM wanted the blue, I hated that SOB with a passion. Starbrat wanted me to pick green. Um, you're the leader of the Reapers, STFU. Anderson & Hackett were the only ones who didn't think Shepard delusional over his warnings of the Reapers and Anderson was every bit the mentor/friend/father to Shepard. He wanted me to kill those things. I did. If by some miracle, the EC is awesome and makes the ending not suck, I will continue to make that same choice. The Reapers can go to hell.

I want it changed so the geth & EDI survive the destroy choice. I want to see Tali standing next to the geth prime at the final base, instead of being replaced by it. I want a geth prime to save Tali's life in a cutscene during the end battle. If BioWare is going to put that magic off switch in there, then it won't be much more of a stretch to have it affect only the main Reaper forces. Make this happen, BioWare.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 27 avril 2012 - 04:10 .

[nitefyre410]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Shaftell wrote...

Playing Mass Effect, I personally established that a KEY element thematically to the franchise was cultural diversity and our acceptance of them... i.e. Geth vs. Quarian and Krogan vs. Salarian... How do we cope with one another? The Synthesis ending is not only bad, but thematically appalling and contradictory.

This is where I think the execution of the ending does not match the intent of the ending. I truly believe that BioWare intended for "Synthesis" to mean different cultures/races putting their differences aside, and uniting with one another in love and harmony.  I do not believe they intended for "Synthesis" to be the literal homogonizing of all people into a single race, but rather a figurative joining together & dropping the hate, racism, putting an end to war, etc.

The problem is, this isn't effectively communicated in the ending, so it is entirely reasonable to assume the "anti-diversity" interpretation.

 

Then it sound have been called Synergy  instead because  with how they present synthesis and how its explained its very very poor.  

Also  Synergy, mutual understanding  is something the cut dialogue  of the Geth  Prime speaks  about.