897 réponses à ce sujet

[ed87]

Even Deus Ex did it better, and made more sense in the process.

[Cobra's_back]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

(can't quote on my smart phone)

Gill Kaiser, what does necessity have to do with synthesis? And, isn't everybody with cybernetic implants already on their way to synthesis if not there already? Does synthesis destroy free will? Were not the reapers already synthesizing the galaxy but at the expense of free will?

People with cybernetic implants made the decision themselves. There's nothing wrong with transhumanism provided it isn't imposed. Synthesis not only imposes it, it implements it.

As for free will: Firstly, since synthesis prevents behaviour that is supposedly inevitable (organics vs synthetics), it by necessity must alter the perceptions and thought processes of those affected; whether physically or simply by the change in context, those entities' free will has been impinged upon. Secondly, their free will when it comes to choosing their own fate has been effectively stolen by the forced alteration Synthesis provides.

Yes, the Reapers were synthesising the galaxy at the expense of free will. That's why we opposed them! They were the antagonists! My point about necessity is exactly this! I reject the idea that the solutions proposed by the Reapers, harvesting and Synthesis both, were necessary! Synthesis is presented as a choice that Shepard must make. If you can't explain why it is necessary, what value does it have as a choice?

I agree with you. I like freedom of choice. This is not what they are offering.

[Taboo]

They didn't present speculation. They presented a lack of information and insulted the audience's intelligence.

Mind boggling.

[Legion is Skynet]

Taboo-XX wrote...

They didn't present speculation. They presented a lack of information and insulted the audience's intelligence.

Mind boggling.

Precisely. Bold twist endings are all fine and good, but the artist should be prepared to defend that decision. What we got with Synthesis instead was some mystical crap.

"Nah, bro. Now it's all just... life, man. Like, harmony and junk. It's super deep though. It's like there's no need to fight anymore, because... because we're all the same now, you guys. The same."

Couple that with a profound lack of understanding regarding evolution, sociology, and the very basic nature of human conflict (to say nothing about the other species this decision will effect), and the idea that we can "meld DNA" and thus ensure some kind of lasting peace is patently absurd. 

If I were a human on earth in that scenario my response would be quite simple. Upon discovering that both myself and my enemy had been "modified" to become some sort of synthetic-organic hybrid, my very first question would be "does that mean we can take down their shields now?" as I fired every availlable weapon at the Reapers to find out. 

Perhaps it's a small minded or myopic viewpoint, but there will be no peace once you've tried to harvest my planet. DNA be damned, one of us is GOING to die before it's over. 

[LKx]

I should put this here from another thread:

So, in the end we are forced to eventually accept the starbrat's circular logic and assume that synthetics wiping out all organics is an inevitable truth (despite all the evolution and achievements we could have during ME2 and ME3 with EDI, Legion and Geths).
Let's bear with the catalyst's assumptions for a moment, and talk about the syntesis ending:

I can't understand what in the synthesis space magic is supposed to forbid the new hybrids to create pure synthetics, which (again, bearing with the catalyst's logic) will eventually wipe everything else.

"There no more organic and synthetic, just life" is not an answer. You just forced us to buy the assumption that the development of synthetics, which will wipe everything else from the existence, is an inevitable truth, you can't do a 180 turn and try to sell us the notion that it won't happen under synthesis.

Even if space magic made all materials half-organic (ouch, my house is alive!!), they could always just... err... synthesize synthetic materials eventually.

So, why the hell we should feel like the starchild gave us an actual solution, and how we should feel that we achieved something picking it (agan, if we just take for granted the catalyst's premises)?

[Taboo]

LKx wrote...

I should put this here from another thread:

So, in the end we are forced to eventually accept the starbrat's circular logic and assume that synthetics wiping out all organics is an inevitable truth (despite all the evolution and achievements we could have during ME2 and ME3 with EDI, Legion and Geths).
Let's bear with the catalyst's assumptions for a moment, and talk about the syntesis ending:

I can't understand what in the synthesis space magic is supposed to forbid the new hybrids to create pure synthetics, which (again, bearing with the catalyst's logic) will eventually wipe everything else.

"There no more organic and synthetic, just life" is not an answer. You just forced us to buy the assumption that the development of synthetics, which will wipe everything else from the existence, is an inevitable truth, you can't do a 180 turn and try to sell us the notion that it won't happen under synthesis.

Even if space magic made all materials half-organic (ouch, my house is alive!!), they could always just... err... synthesize synthetic materials eventually.

So, why the hell we should feel like the starchild gave us an actual solution, and how we should feel that we achieved something picking it (agan, if we just take for granted the catalyst's premises)?

These kinds of posts make me want to send in responses to Bioware. Maybe a summation of this thread?

[Shaigunjoe]

Taboo-XX wrote...

 @shaigainjoe.

I'll be honest. I believe Bioware wanted me to believe what I was watching was to be interpreted literally. This is the great failing of the ending on their part and one of the most insulting things I've even seen presented to a compotent audience. I've seen some dumb things at film festivals and heard even dumber things presented by artists but "Lots of Speculation for everyone." is the most disastrous option I've ever seen implemented from an artist. Is that REALLY the inference Mr Hudson and Mr Walters wanted thousands of people to take away from this?

I cannot provide concrete answers without concrete information. What Bioware has essentially asked me to do is extrapolate from data that isn't there. Ambiguity is a really cool story telling technique when done correctly but when it is done poorly it insults the audience. They failed and failed badly.

New topic in a moment. Something Mr. Priestly said yesterday rustled my jimmies...........

So why do you feel that was their intent?  Originally, I felt that way too and was a little miffed.  But I started thinking about where things went wrong, which was right around the harby beam blast occured.  Things just seemed fuzzy and flacid.  Then I watched the stargazer seen begin, which begins with something along the lines of "Is that how it really happened"  "Yes, though details have been lost in time" (Hence the fuzziness) and it ends with "Ok, one more story"  It is interesting that, if I remember correctly, when Liara starts talking into her time box, the things she starts out with is Sheps class and origin, the very first thing you select when starting a new game.

Now the prompt at the end urging you to buy more DLC is absoulutly horrendus, I agree with you in that EA's market department is awful.

You say you cannot provide concrete answers without concrete data, but isn't the point of speculation not to have something concrete?  If there was concrete data, there would be no point in speculation.

I get that some people don't like ambigous endings, and I feel bioware execution was not perfect, but I don't feel like its the insult to humanity and art that people seem to think it is.

[Hawk227]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

Stop saying Synthesis is not discussed before.

Maybe your wild and out of the blue assumptions of what Synthesis is (no free will, cyborg everyone, all that other crap) are out of the blue, but Synthesis - and yes, maybe Synergy is a better word - is talked about in several places throughout the games.
Alluded to by Saren, discussed as applications in other species (Asari reproduction with other species is sort of like Synthesis - without your wild assumptions), talked about throughout the trilogy basically every time you talk about various synthetic augmentations and implants (Biotics, for example), discussed extensively through the Geth and more so with the Peace if you strike it between Geth and Quarian.

So it is NOT out of the blue.

The assumption that it is the only solution for peace is out of the blue.

I remember Saren telling Shepard organic could survive if they make themselves useful to the reapers. Organics will be saved if they serve the reapers.
 
Legion’s name means one of many. Synergy they all work together for a common goal. They share memories and reach group consensus. They are hooked up to a network. It looks like a socialist society. Decisions are based on a group consensus.
Are there other parts of the story that explain more?

Saren was indoctrinated. He thought enslaving organics to the Reapers was preferable to extinction. Submission is not peace.

At the end of the Rannoch mission, the fates of both the Quarian and the Geth hinge on whether Shepard allows legion to upgrade the Geth to become true individuals. They are no longer thousands of processes working in conjunction to make eachother stronger but genuine individual entities.

The game repeatedly sends the message that true strength is achieved through diversity. But the ending basically tells us that as long as we have differences, civilization will be doomed. Only by eliminating our differences can we achieve peace. As the OP said, did Bioware not understand the political implications of that message?

[Cobra's_back]

Hawk227 wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

Stop saying Synthesis is not discussed before.

Maybe your wild and out of the blue assumptions of what Synthesis is (no free will, cyborg everyone, all that other crap) are out of the blue, but Synthesis - and yes, maybe Synergy is a better word - is talked about in several places throughout the games.
Alluded to by Saren, discussed as applications in other species (Asari reproduction with other species is sort of like Synthesis - without your wild assumptions), talked about throughout the trilogy basically every time you talk about various synthetic augmentations and implants (Biotics, for example), discussed extensively through the Geth and more so with the Peace if you strike it between Geth and Quarian.

So it is NOT out of the blue.

The assumption that it is the only solution for peace is out of the blue.

I remember Saren telling Shepard organic could survive if they make themselves useful to the reapers. Organics will be saved if they serve the reapers.
 
Legion’s name means one of many. Synergy they all work together for a common goal. They share memories and reach group consensus. They are hooked up to a network. It looks like a socialist society. Decisions are based on a group consensus.
Are there other parts of the story that explain more?

Saren was indoctrinated. He thought enslaving organics to the Reapers was preferable to extinction. Submission is not peace.

At the end of the Rannoch mission, the fates of both the Quarian and the Geth hinge on whether Shepard allows legion to upgrade the Geth to become true individuals. They are no longer thousands of processes working in conjunction to make eachother stronger but genuine individual entities.

The game repeatedly sends the message that true strength is achieved through diversity. But the ending basically tells us that as long as we have differences, civilization will be doomed. Only by eliminating our differences can we achieve peace. As the OP said, did Bioware not understand the political implications of that message?

Very good point. Green doesn't make sense.

[Halo Quea]

Nassegris wrote...

Synthesis makes no sense. It has no foreshadowing. You can’t expect us to make an informed decision when there is no place for this theory in the game world. It’s never been touched on, never referred to and never hinted at. This is no clever Fight Club where a second viewing makes everything all the more interesting – it’s just frustrating and angering. No matter how you turn it, there isn’t enough information in the game for this silly idea to belong there. A few lines of dialogue at the very end don’t suffice. It makes Synthesis look tacked-on and ridiculous. 

Without the context to make an informed decision, we might as well not make a decision at all regarding the outcome. No reason to trust the Space Brat because we’ve given no reason to trust it. No reason to believe that Synthesis isn’t mass-rape because we have no context to tell us otherwise. We can freely assume the worst about any of the choices because Bioware did not bother to tie them into the game properly. That’s why that whole scene feels so ridiculous – it’s a very poorly made twist ending.

When we can’t make an informed decision, we could just make a random one. It could be a ‘pick a door, any door’ situation with a random result and we wouldn’t really get to see the result or the consequences of our random choice. We’re guessing at the outcome, here. That’s not an open-ended result – it’s a slap in the face.

This was sort of my point earlier.   We don't even know how people are going to accept Synthesis. 

With the relays destroyed and everyone isolated in their various areas of space,  there could be wide spread panic to the sudden change of becoming machine hybrids.  In my little synopsis, a man and his wife assume that the Reapers must have "won" and succeeded in turning everyone into whatever they wanted.  

I predict there would be MASS SUICIDES by people who would terrified at even looking at themselves in the mirror.  You went to sleep last night with a human being, you wake up the next morning and your wife has electric eyes and circuitry imprints embedded within her skin. 

Would any of us be cool with seeing their baby infant robbed of it's humanity?  How would the other species in the galaxy react to this?  As you've stated, it's more than just making an uninformed decision, it's about accepting the choices provided by the galaxy's greatest murderer. 

And perhaps space-god-boy laughs in the end because Shepard finally allows him to triumph over the galaxy. 

[M0keys]

The ending doesn't even make any sense. What does it actually do? As far as I can tell, everyone still looks like humans and quarians and geth and turians and stuff. Are they all forcibly brainwashed into thinking they're the same?

[Zuka999]

I mean, synthesis is physically impossible first of all. Second of all.. its DUMB! Why was this ending such a shift from tangible ideas to metaphysical symbols bull****? Why did you think we wanted that? WHY?!

[HinduCowGirl]

Can't they just come forth and admit they came up with this nonsense crap ending when they were high as kites on Root Beer Float? Come one, just say sorry and promise to make endings that is coherent with the narrative. I would even pay for that.

[Blc949]

So not sure if its been mentioned as I'm not going to read 20 pages but...

Synthesis seems to be everything that is wrong with many religions heaven to many people. I'm an agnostic who was raised christian. I never got a very good answer to my questions of "so, how is heaven going to be great for a person who has a very strong sense of free will? Being happy forever seems to much like brainwashing, the person I am now would not like that, and don't give me that "but you'll enjoy it once you're there, you can't comprehend it" bull****". I never got a very good answer, hence me ending up agnostic by my mid teens.

Synthesis seems very very very very very X100 much like how heaven doesn't work for me.

[Taboo]

Blc949 wrote...

So not sure if its been mentioned as I'm not going to read 20 pages but...

Synthesis seems to be everything that is wrong with many religions heaven to many people. I'm an agnostic who was raised christian. I never got a very good answer to my questions of "so, how is heaven going to be great for a person who has a very strong sense of free will? Being happy forever seems to much like brainwashing, the person I am now would not like that, and don't give me that "but you'll enjoy it once you're there, you can't comprehend it" bull****". I never got a very good answer, hence me ending up agnostic by my mid teens.

Synthesis seems very very very very very X100 much like how heaven doesn't work for me.

The forced Adam and Eve allegory doesn't help agnostics OR atheists.

Bioware needs to understand that people LAUGH at forced symbolism. It isn't deep or thought provking.

[HinduCowGirl]

Blc949 wrote...

So not sure if its been mentioned as I'm not going to read 20 pages but...

Synthesis seems to be everything that is wrong with many religions heaven to many people. I'm an agnostic who was raised christian. I never got a very good answer to my questions of "so, how is heaven going to be great for a person who has a very strong sense of free will? Being happy forever seems to much like brainwashing, the person I am now would not like that, and don't give me that "but you'll enjoy it once you're there, you can't comprehend it" bull****". I never got a very good answer, hence me ending up agnostic by my mid teens.

Synthesis seems very very very very very X100 much like how heaven doesn't work for me.

The whole debate has been pretty much what you just wrote. Who is Shepard to force synthesis upon everything that is organic? How can they even let that be a choice?! It's like Mass Molestation in the divine degree.

[Madecologist]

I said this in another thread, it's very appropriate for this one as well:

It really does seem Bioware thinks Synthesis is the 'best' ending. That it solves the conflict and thus the best solution. However they say it with complete disregard of all ethical and moral consideration of what the ending implies. That thought... is rather scary if they don't.

Also Synthesis doesn't even try to find a working compromise between Organics and Synthetics, it merely forces a new Paradigm on all, without their consent. Both Organics and Synthetics are forced into this new Paradigm. How can anyone think that imposing a new Paradigm on all without consent is a valid way to break a cycle?

What is next? Let us stop all forms of war. I will use a device that will remove all aggression out of everyone. What makes Synthesis so morally disguisting is that it imposes this solution on everyone. Again if this is missed by Bioware...

[Taboo]

Madecologist wrote...

I said this in another thread, it's very appropriate for this one as well:

It really does seem Bioware thinks Synthesis is the 'best' ending. That it solves the conflict and thus the best solution. However they say it with complete disregard of all ethical and moral consideration of what the ending implies. That thought... is rather scary if they don't.

Also Synthesis doesn't even try to find a working compromise between Organics and Synthetics, it merely forces a new Paradigm on all, without their consent. Both Organics and Synthetics are forced into this new Paradigm. How can anyone think that imposing a new Paradigm on all without consent is a valid way to break a cycle?

What is next? Let us stop all forms of war. I will use a device that will remove all aggression out of everyone. What makes Synthesis so morally disguisting is that it imposes this solution on everyone. Again if this is missed by Bioware...

Mr. Gamble seemed to realize this when he suggested that Synthesis was his favorite. People went APE. Bioware is very aware at least NOW that people think their best solution is terrible and that the political implications are............unsettling.

[Spectre Impersonator]

Why do I sense the Catalyst getting new lines, such as "There is only life."? <_<

[Vox Draco]

M0keys wrote...

The ending doesn't even make any sense. What does it actually do? As far as I can tell, everyone still looks like humans and quarians and geth and turians and stuff. Are they all forcibly brainwashed into thinking they're the same?

If you think too long of it, it only makes your head explode. I can even barely accept from a science-fiction-point-of-view that some kind of synthetic DNA is injected? whatever...into every EVERY organic being in the galaxy...including mushrooms, kittens, apes, ants, bacteria...

But the Geth? How do you merge software with organic DNA?

And how is all this supposed to make things better anyway? even if not everyone is brainwashed and there will still be quarians, turians and so on, just with synthetic DNA and glowing green...what makes this better? They can still wage war on each other, it didn't stop anyone while having "pure" organic DNA...and they can still make synthetics (well, as long as metal and palstic is not merged with organic DNA as well everywhere...oh my god...)

So if Synthesis really is supposed to bring peace to the galaxy (something the starchild actually avoids to confirm) or at least stop every race from creating new synthetics that might wipe them out...

Well, than there HAS to be some kind of...I don't know how to put it in words...galactic-wide-consensus? reaper-logic? same point of view despite racial differences?....that comes with synthesis...and we are back at brainwashing...

[RedTail F22]

I always like your post. I usually end up feeling just a little bit more depressed because the truth hurts. But these points need to be recognized.

[Taboo]

JohnShepard12 wrote...

Why do I sense the Catalyst getting new lines, such as "There is only life."? <_<

[RavenEchoseven]

I don't know if anyone else has made this point yet, but the synthesis ending seems like a ripoff of the Battlestar Galactica (new series) ending. The joining of machine and human/organic. At the end, two characters are seen looking at the future of this race and the new synthetics they are developing. They see the cycle possibly starting again. Seriously so much of the entire situation as presented by the ending seem so much a rip straight from Battlestar Galactica it isn't even funny.

[darthoptimus003]

all good points to bad BW doesnt think so
and now we get the EC so they can explain how all this is supose to play out
anyone else see a problem this is about to become

[Aquilas]

Synthesis is a miracle.

It’s an honest-to-god miracle. And I do mean god. Synthesis is a divine revelation the writers have been saving for five years--because Synthesis certainly isn’t based in Mass Effect lore, physics, metaphysics or logic. We all know we can’t apply logic to god.

Here’s why Synthesis is a miracle: given ME lore, the Catalyst (meaning Hudson and Walters) undermines every premise underpinning its and the Reapers’ existence with its own words. When the Catalyst meets Shepard and elaborates on the Order versus Chaos conflict and its solution (and that's a whole nother thread), it (Hudson and Walters) commits a formal logical fallacy: the Appeal to Probability.

This is the logic structure of the fallacy: If A is possible/probable, then A is absolute.

When Shepard meets the Catalyst, it explains that the Reapers don’t harvest all organic life; they harvest life forms advanced enough to create synthetics. Synthetics, it says, inevitably will rebel against and destroy their creators, and then would proceed to destroy all organic life. The Catalyst's logic isn't circular; it differentiates between harvesting advanced organic life and the destruction of all organic life. Remember, it’s inevitable.

But the Catalyst doesn’t know that. It cannot know that. It asserts it. To truly know it, the Catalyst must be a god, as we commonly understand it, or at the very least possesses god-like powers.

Just because a thing is possible or probable doesn’t mean it’s inevitable. If the Catalyst were basing its assertion on experience, then it has already witnessed synthetics destroying all organic life. If that’s the case, Shepard and his allies wouldn’t exist—the Catalyst and the Reapers would have no reason for being.  That is, unless the Catalyst re-created organic life so it and the Reapers would have something to do. So we’re looking at some form of Supreme Creator.

If the Catalyst is looking forward, the only way it could know absolutely that unchecked synthetics would destroy all organic life is if it’s infallibly prescient—otherwise known as divinely omniscient. Probabilities and simulations don't cut it--remember Mordin and the genophage? When we consider the Catalyst may have the power to re-create organic life and/or infallibly see the future, we’re most firmly in the realm of godhood.

So, is the Catalyst a god? Yes. At the very least it’s a flawed, mega-powerful AI that cannot be trusted—think Hal 9000 on a galactic scale--that possesses god-like powers. There are no other options.

If the Catalyst is a god or an AI with god-like powers, then the writers truly have cast Space Magic at the very last minute. Never before have we seen divine intervention in the ME universe. Yes, Ashley prays; and yes, the turians invoke the spirits; and yes, the asari invoke the goddess; but we’ve never seen a miracle. And I mean a classic miracle, given the Mass Effect universe's well-established physical and metaphysical principles. Oh wait--except for two pipes and a beam of light that can fundamentally change the very nature of existence on a galactic scale. So there's that. Yeah, that's the ticket: Synthesis is a miracle.

Perhaps Shepard is experiencing a revelation--the Deity is revealing itself to Shepard the Shepherd. If so, the ending truly is sad. And I don't mean tragic, or a downer. I mean it’s sad because we're seeing the end of BioWare's run as the premier storyteller in video gaming. A pity.

*This is an edited version of comments I made in another thread--didn't feel like rewriting it.*

Modifié par Aquilas, 28 avril 2012 - 02:53 .