frylock23 wrote...
*snip*
Well, you can also take absolute, dictatorial control and override all differences with your ego, too, but I also find that pretty repugnant for similar reasons.
Taboo-XX wrote...
Sisterofshane wrote...
nicethugbert wrote...
Shepard may not have the right to make the decision, but, he was the only person in a postion to do so. He is bleeding to death and in the opponents home. Nobody else got that far. The reapers are winning the war and The Catalyst is willing to make a deal.
What do you expect? If it came up to a galactic vote, what do you think would happen? If mothers could look back in retrospect, which option would they choose for their children?
What I'm reading here is that just because you can, you should.
Morality be damned!
It isn't as bad as the Pro-Ender who told me that if people didn't like having their DNA changed they could have it reversed. He left when I pointed out how silly he was.
GroverA125 wrote...
It's borderline racist, when you think about it. It's basically saying that one kind of person is ultimately going to cause war. I ask any who believe that that point is correct to look at our history. Everyone kills each other, it's a major part of life. It doesn't matter if they come from Germany or from our own country, we still kill each other. To say it's one type of persons fault is beyond racist, it's like me saying that dying of old age is caused by americans. I'm essentially blaming a part of life on someone whom it has no real causal link to.
Sisterofshane wrote...
Taboo-XX wrote...
Sisterofshane wrote...
nicethugbert wrote...
Shepard may not have the right to make the decision, but, he was the only person in a postion to do so. He is bleeding to death and in the opponents home. Nobody else got that far. The reapers are winning the war and The Catalyst is willing to make a deal.
What do you expect? If it came up to a galactic vote, what do you think would happen? If mothers could look back in retrospect, which option would they choose for their children?
What I'm reading here is that just because you can, you should.
Morality be damned!
It isn't as bad as the Pro-Ender who told me that if people didn't like having their DNA changed they could have it reversed. He left when I pointed out how silly he was.
LOLWUT?
Wow, some (permanent) solution to Technological Singularity these people believe in...
It is never implied that there will be peace in a general sense, to say nothing of permanent peace. Only that THIS conflict will end - the conflict between the Reapers and galactic civilization, and that conflict between synthetics and organics that would eventually end in organics' extinction.iakus wrote...
Ieldra2 wrote...
I take the "new DNA" as figuratively. Because something like a hybrid DNA is logically impossible. The defining difference between synthetics and organics is not primarily physical. You have three key differences: knowledge of your creation and original purpose, functional immortality and a design that facilitiates self-improvement as opposed to the "chaotic" evolved growth of an organic. According to these key elements, an immortal human who was genetically designed from the ground up for a specific purpose would be almost a synthetic.
These key differences are logically irreconcilable. Either you know your purpose or not. Either you're bound by time or not. Either you're designed or not. There are no hybrids possible between these aspects. That's why I interpret the Synthesis as more of a symbiosis - organics with synthetic symbionts, synthetics with software inspired by organics' mental and emotional processes. Partaking in each others' nature, facilitating understanding.
Yes, it goes against a literal interpreation of the Catalyst's words. But if the literal makes no sense, I feel justified in using a metaphorical one.
And even then, Synthsis would not solve the problem the Catalyst asserted.
Organics have shown over and over they will war with each other. The Heretic and True geth have shown they will fragment and even war with each other, in their own way (the Heretic virus)
Unless the Synthesis includes some sort of mental compulsion for its recipients not to war on one another, there will be conflict. There will not be peace. There will be those who hate the geth, or the krogan, or tha batarians, or the humans.
Organic and synthetic are just words to separate different life-forms. Take those away, and others will be found to describe "the other" At best Synthesis is a neat parlor trick. At worst, you're removing free will.
Ieldra2 wrote...
It is never implied that there will be peace in a general sense, to say nothing of permanent peace. Only that THIS conflict will end - the conflict between the Reapers and galactic civilization, and that conflict between synthetics and organics that would eventually end in organics' extinction.iakus wrote...
Ieldra2 wrote...
I take the "new DNA" as figuratively. Because something like a hybrid DNA is logically impossible. The defining difference between synthetics and organics is not primarily physical. You have three key differences: knowledge of your creation and original purpose, functional immortality and a design that facilitiates self-improvement as opposed to the "chaotic" evolved growth of an organic. According to these key elements, an immortal human who was genetically designed from the ground up for a specific purpose would be almost a synthetic.
These key differences are logically irreconcilable. Either you know your purpose or not. Either you're bound by time or not. Either you're designed or not. There are no hybrids possible between these aspects. That's why I interpret the Synthesis as more of a symbiosis - organics with synthetic symbionts, synthetics with software inspired by organics' mental and emotional processes. Partaking in each others' nature, facilitating understanding.
Yes, it goes against a literal interpreation of the Catalyst's words. But if the literal makes no sense, I feel justified in using a metaphorical one.
And even then, Synthsis would not solve the problem the Catalyst asserted.
Organics have shown over and over they will war with each other. The Heretic and True geth have shown they will fragment and even war with each other, in their own way (the Heretic virus)
Unless the Synthesis includes some sort of mental compulsion for its recipients not to war on one another, there will be conflict. There will not be peace. There will be those who hate the geth, or the krogan, or tha batarians, or the humans.
Organic and synthetic are just words to separate different life-forms. Take those away, and others will be found to describe "the other" At best Synthesis is a neat parlor trick. At worst, you're removing free will.
Other kinds of conflict are still possible.
Modifié par frylock23, 30 avril 2012 - 09:00 .
Ieldra2 wrote...
It is never implied that there will be peace in a general sense, to say nothing of permanent peace. Only that THIS conflict will end - the conflict between the Reapers and galactic civilization, and that conflict between synthetics and organics that would eventually end in organics' extinction.
Other kinds of conflict are still possible.
iakus wrote...
What conflict with synthetics? I've got an army of geth fighting alongside their creators! The Normandy's copilot is synthetic! Why should the galaxy be forced to rewrite their DNA over an assertion that hasn't proven to be true? An assertion given by a being which claims to control the race that seems to like turning organics into cybernetic zombies?
And even if there was some truth in the Catalyst's asertion, again, how would Synthesis change anything? All you're doing is removing the terms "organic" and "synthetic". Great so now conflict will be "hybrid versus hybrid"
Cypher_CS wrote...
Hawk227 wrote...
I realise you trust them, I'm just trying to point out that making new polymerases from scratch is a substantially bigger accomplishment than the XNA thing. If they had done that, the article would have been about that.
Hawk, here's another quote from the article:
"
But scientists have been synthesizing XNA molecules for well over a decade. What makes the findings of Pinheiro and his colleagues so compelling isn't the XNA molecules themselves, it's what they've shown these alien molecules are capable of, namely: replication and evolution. "
And this:
"
Using a crafty genetic engineering technique called compartmentalized self-tagging (or "CST"), Pinheiro's team designed special polymerases that could not only synthesize XNA from a DNA template, but actually copy XNA backinto DNA. The result was a genetic system that allowed for the replication and propagation of genetic information. "
Please note, I'm not saying it's possible right now.
I'm saying look at the breakthroughs these guys have published only this past month.
Now take a Sci-Fi spin on it with a huge step farther.
A leap of faith, or fancy, is required. I'm not negating that.
sydranark wrote...
Sometimes I wish these endings were leaked before release, and this whole retake moveent happened months before these greedy scrooges got their hands on our money and ripped us off. Maybe then they actually would ahve listened and fixed all of these plot holes.
Modifié par Devil Mingy, 30 avril 2012 - 10:40 .
Sisterofshane wrote...
nicethugbert wrote...
Shepard may not have the right to make the decision, but, he was the only person in a postion to do so. He is bleeding to death and in the opponents home. Nobody else got that far. The reapers are winning the war and The Catalyst is willing to make a deal.
What do you expect? If it came up to a galactic vote, what do you think would happen? If mothers could look back in retrospect, which option would they choose for their children?
What I'm reading here is that just because you can, you should.
Morality be damned!
Gill Kaiser wrote...
Mr. Gamble seems to find it a confusing concept that we already considered synthetics as equally valid forms of life. The organic and synthetic lifeform dichotomy is entirely fabricated, and the solution proposed is atrociously immoral. Why must organics and synthetics be merged into one? They're already life, and they each have a place in the cosmos. Synthesis takes away their future and everything they could become through the natural progession of a sentient culture.
Modifié par TheJiveDJ, 30 avril 2012 - 11:12 .
TheJiveDJ wrote...
Gill Kaiser wrote...
Mr. Gamble seems to find it a confusing concept that we already considered synthetics as equally valid forms of life. The organic and synthetic lifeform dichotomy is entirely fabricated, and the solution proposed is atrociously immoral. Why must organics and synthetics be merged into one? They're already life, and they each have a place in the cosmos. Synthesis takes away their future and everything they could become through the natural progession of a sentient culture.
I'd care to assert that whomever wrote the ending had underestimated just how progressive BioWare's fanbase is. It's as if they'd assumed we all had an underlying hatred for synthetic life, or that people would never accept that life may manifest itself in a non-organic species. It's as if they were banking on the fact that we'd all go YEAAHH TAKE THAT YOU SYNTHETIC BASTARDS. I think they forgot what universe they were writing for (this isn't Terminator). This is a part of what made Mass Effect so beautiful; we could take progressive ideas like synthetic life seriously and in a mature manner. Honestly it speaks volumes about the intelligence and maturity of BioWare's fanbase.
Shaigunjoe wrote...
TheJiveDJ wrote...
Gill Kaiser wrote...
Mr. Gamble seems to find it a confusing concept that we already considered synthetics as equally valid forms of life. The organic and synthetic lifeform dichotomy is entirely fabricated, and the solution proposed is atrociously immoral. Why must organics and synthetics be merged into one? They're already life, and they each have a place in the cosmos. Synthesis takes away their future and everything they could become through the natural progession of a sentient culture.
I'd care to assert that whomever wrote the ending had underestimated just how progressive BioWare's fanbase is. It's as if they'd assumed we all had an underlying hatred for synthetic life, or that people would never accept that life may manifest itself in a non-organic species. It's as if they were banking on the fact that we'd all go YEAAHH TAKE THAT YOU SYNTHETIC BASTARDS. I think they forgot what universe they were writing for (this isn't Terminator). This is a part of what made Mass Effect so beautiful; we could take progressive ideas like synthetic life seriously and in a mature manner. Honestly it speaks volumes about the intelligence and maturity of BioWare's fanbase.
The thing that makes me wonder about synthetic life, is at what point would us, in real life, consider an AI to be alive (definition of biological life aside for the moment). Whenever ever I hear EDI or Legion talk about love or soul, we really have only their assurences. There was always something in the back of my mind that said 'why can't they just be programmed to say these things'. They both have reaper code, and reapers are very good at deception.
iakus wrote...
Ieldra2 wrote...
There is - thought not in the way you mean it. The difference is a matter of scope and results. I condemn a whole species to death, destroying any future it might have, or I effect a change in physical makeup - on the whole galaxy, but the effect is far less drastic than death and is even implied to be beneficial. I have much less trouble with the latter. I would prefer to give people a choice, but if all I have is a global on/off button, I'll use it.
I don't subscribe to the notion that our physical nature is sacrosanct. We live in a symbiosis with bacteria, and our evolved biology is a complete mess, as if you'd evolved a calculator program into an AI by applying a million patches. What's so special about that? I'm not turning anyone into a monster. The ending sequence implies people are still very much themselves. I have much less trouble making a physical change of that nature than with enslaving the Reapers for the foreseeable future or exterminating all synthetics.
Living in symbiosis with another life form is not the same thing as completely rewriting it. And Synthesis is just that: rewriting all life to suit something's opinion on what's "best" for everyone. Just because the changes appear small and subtle does not mean there aren't bigger changes beneath the surface. Indoctrination is the same way. I'm sure The Illusive Man thought everything was fine and dandy right up until the end.
It does not.TookYoCookies wrote...
Yea, this just, ahhh *sigh*. The topic of synthesis is so flawed from the outset, i find it offensive that people actually defend this. "The Pinnacle of evolution" How can the catalysty possibly know that? Unless he actually is some kind of all-knowing being, there is nothing he can predict about the evolution of organic life, and what possibly may result from the process. But intoducing artificial coding, or merging artificial DNA or however they want to explain the ficition, just kills the process of natural evolution.
Again, read.TookYoCookies wrote...
How does it grow after? How does it evolve? Does it evolve? it goes from one of the most amazing, random, naturally occurring proccesses, to something manufactured and fake. i saw some someone say something earlier along the lines of "it gives us the ability to self modify" WHAT?!?! News flash: we can self modify now, thanks to free will. if i want to learn calculus i can go out and buy a calculus text book and read it! If i want to get stronger and run faster i can lift weights and run sprints. It is that simple, you dont need synthetic DNA to be able to do that.
Again, completely misunderstood. Or rather, haven't even tried to understand. Oh well.TookYoCookies wrote...
Lol seriously the fact that some one at BW actually said that this is the best ending is offensive! How is it deep? How is it thoughtful? Im sure there are citizens of Topeka Kansas, that happen to be parishiners of the West Borough Baptist Church that thought the Synthesis Ending was f*cking Great!:
"AHH SEE!! If every one was just white, christian, and heterosexual, the galaxy wouldnt have these problems! Thank you Bioware!"
That's the point of a dramatic story. It doesn't get the happy ending.TookYoCookies wrote...
The fact that shepard accepts what the catalyst says (He is the leader of the reapers, the main antagonist of the trilogy, remember?) with out question, makes absolutely no f*cking sense. Some one posted earlier "do you want it to come down to a galactic vote?" No. I want a 4th option, i want to tell space child to f*ck off, while i get on the normandy and go maverick from top gun. Not take these 3 sh*t choices that go against what i was working for this entire time.
"in retrospect, what would mothers want for their babies?". Hmm probably to be togeather with their children in a safe place, not turn their babies into f*cking cyborgs.
TookYoCookies wrote...
iakus wrote...
What conflict with synthetics? I've got an army of geth fighting alongside their creators! The Normandy's copilot is synthetic! Why should the galaxy be forced to rewrite their DNA over an assertion that hasn't proven to be true? An assertion given by a being which claims to control the race that seems to like turning organics into cybernetic zombies?
And even if there was some truth in the Catalyst's asertion, again, how would Synthesis change anything? All you're doing is removing the terms "organic" and "synthetic". Great so now conflict will be "hybrid versus hybrid"
^^^^^ this is a smart man.
Dark Penitant wrote...
iakus wrote...
Ieldra2 wrote...
...
....
Exactly, thank you. Seriously, everyone supporting synthesis; you have a very warped idea what consent means.
Modifié par Cypher_CS, 01 mai 2012 - 03:45 .
Dark Penitant wrote...
^^Consent has everything to do with it; assumptions aside, it's still altering others' bodies without their explicit permission. Hence, it violates bodily sovereignty and consent, and is therefore arguably the worst choice you could possibly make.
HunterX6 wrote...
Because synthesis is the the final state of evolution. No matter what, eventually humanity in the real world will achieve eternal life but it will be by merging with synthetics parts. That way humans wont get sick,age, etc I am not saying you would like it or that it seems like a good future or sounds like we will be 100% human but something more. its just the way humans are planning to survive and improve and times passes by, its a almost impossible thing to change as centuries pass by.
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